Matt. 25:30

[Craigbythesea]

Bartholomew wrote,

Craig, I would be very careful of making derogatory statements like that (see Matt 5:22).

The word “fool” is used 41 times in the Book of Proverbs in the Bible.

I assure you that Faust CAN read.

Yes, Faust can read English. He graduated from high school, but he never completed any college courses and he never learned how to read Greek. (source: personal correspondence with Faust)

I also assure you that your argument is not in the slightest bit sound. The fact that in the parable the man does not die before being punished is irrelevant. Go back to the parable you started this thread with - Matthew 25. Does the unprofitable servant die before his Lord reckons with him? Is he raised from the dead before being cast into outer-darkness? Of course not. Therefore, using your logic, we would have to conclude either:

(a)outer darkness is only a punishment in this life, or

(b)you can't read.

Of course, neither is true, because your method of interpreting the parables is obviously wrong. To see this, go back to the parable of the tares, where Jesus gives the interpretation: the tares do not die in the parable, but Jesus says it is a reference to the judgement. Also compare the Matthew 18 parable to James 2:12-13, and you'll see that the judgement as in Matt 18 will also happen after this life.

Even Faust agrees that the unprofitable servant in Matt. 25:30 DOES DIE before being cast into outer darkness. Therefore my argument is very sound

(unless you are a Roman Catholic arguing for purgatory, or a ????).

 

[Craigbythesea]

Bartholomew wrote,

Absolutely! I found some of the verses quoted quite amusing. For example, they quote Romans 8:1 to teach that a believer can't be condemend. Shame, though, that they didn't quote ALL of the verse!

Bartholomew,

I don’t know what book you are referring to as though it is the Bible, but the Bible reads as follows in Romans 8:1,

Oude'n a'ra nu'n kata'krima toi's en Christoo' Ieesou'.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (NASB, 1995)

This verse says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Indeed, condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus is an impossibility because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set them free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom. 8:2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (NASB, 1995)

As for the rest of verse 1, there is no rest of verse 1 (not unless you believe that the scribal gloss found in a few recent and corrupted manuscripts is part of the verse!).

Rom. 8:1. Oude'n a'ra nu'n kata'krima toi's en Christoo' Ieesou'.
2. Ho ga'r no'mos tou' Pneu'matos tee's zooee's en Christoo'Ieesou' eeleuthe'roose'n se apo' tou' no'mou tee's hamarti'askai' tou' thana'tou.
3. To' ga'r adu'naton tou' no'mou en hoo'eesthe'nei dia' tee's sarko's, ho Theo's to'n heautou' Huio'npe'mpsas en homoioo'mati sarko's hamarti'as kai' peri' hamarti'askate'krinen tee'n hamarti'an en tee' sarki',
4. hi'na to'dikai'ooma tou' no'mou pleeroothee' en heemi'n toi's mee' kata'sa'rka peripatou'sin alla' kata' Pneu'ma.

Rom. 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NASB, 1995)

This is one of the most import passages in all of the Bible. I suggest that you read it and meditate on until you understand it. And notice that the pharse “who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” is NOT conditional, but rather it is consequential!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I don’t know what book you are referring to as though it is the Bible, but the Bible reads as follows in Romans 8:1,

Oude'n a'ra nu'n kata'krima toi's en Christoo' Ieesou'.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (NASB, 1995)


As for the rest of verse 1, there is no rest of verse 1 (not unless you believe that the scribal gloss found in a few recent and corrupted manuscripts is part of the verse!).

Perhaps you should weigh in on Brother Ed's "Do you hate the KJV" poll.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1586.html?

Another example of how rummaging through manuscripts, versions, "greek texts", etc can kill a conversation.


-- King James
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is what the Bible says! Until the New Et Al Version bears some comparable fruit, I'll just take this particular wording. Thanks.

By consequential do you mean that a Christian will automatically walk holy no matter what?

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

Perhaps you should weigh in on Brother Ed's "Do you hate the KJV" poll.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/1586.html?

Another example of how rummaging through manuscripts, versions, "greek texts", etc can kill a conversation.


-- King James
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is what the Bible says! Until the New Et Al Version bears some comparable fruit, I'll just take this particular wording. Thanks.

By consequential do you mean that a Christian will automatically walk holy no matter what?

Lacy

Lacy,

Thank you for your continued participation in this thread. Hopefully your continued participation will result in a better understanding of the issues involved and the terms used. I said nothing derogatory about the KJV, and yet you have apparently jumped to the totally erroneous conclusion that I hate it. The KJV version, in spite of the extremely severe hardships that the translators were forced to endure in preparing the translation, is a magnificent accomplishment. Let’s not forget that the translators of the New Testament portion of the King James Version did not even know what Greek dialect they were translating, nor did they have any lexicons or grammars for that dialect! How do I know this? The answer is very simple—none existed at that time. And of course they had only a few very recent and corrupt Greek manuscripts to work from. Today’s translators have over 5,000 manuscripts to work from, many of them very ancient and comparatively free from scribal glosses.

When I study the New Testament, however, I don’t simply read one of the editions of the King James Bible (I have several different editions of the King James Bible and there are many editions that I do not have), nor do I simply read a handful of the contemporary translations, but I study the various Greek texts and the manuscript evidence for each text. The phrase, “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” found in King James Bibles at the end of Rom. 8:1 is very well known to be a scribal gloss from verse 4.

And when I encounter “Christians” who do not care enough about the Bible to learn the Biblical languages, or at least independently study the various translations of it to learn the strengths and weakness of each one, I seriously question the extent of their commitment to the Christian faith. It’s like those who pretend to be a student of William Shakespeare but who read only one version of his works. I am not a serious student of William Shakespeare, but I do use an 18 volume edition that includes and discusses the variations found in the various versions of his works. Therefore, when I quote William Shakespeare I can be much more certain of quoting him correctly than can be the average reader. Is it any less important to accurately quote the Word of God? No, it is much more important, and there is no excuse for carelessness.

This brings us to the last sentence in Lacy’s post,

By consequential do you mean that a Christian will automatically walk holy no matter what?

The word “Christian” does not appear anywhere in the Epistle to the Romans. In Rom. 8:4 we find the pronoun “us”, a reference to “those who are in Christ Jesus.” In 1 Cor. 5:17 we get a good look at what Paul means by the expression “in Christ,”

17. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Notice that Paul says that “the old things have passed away.” He does not say that SOME OF the old things have passed away, but that “the old things have passed away.” A totally inclusive statement using the definite article. Paul uses the expression “in Christ” 74 times (in the KJV).

 

[Craigbythesea]

brumleyj wrote,

you believe judgment seat and great white throne are diffrent please come on. bible is not saying there are two judgment. judgment seat and great white throne are same meaning. no sperate. you believe hell is tempoary place please come on. bible is not saying hell is tempoary place. i believe hell is everlasting that mean forever and forver never ending.

I agree here. I am shocked to see the dependence upon Rev. 20 by J. Faust and others for their soteriology. The interpretation of Rev. 20 has been debated for almost 2,000 years and a multitude of interpretations has been put forth. If J. Faust and others who believe as he does are correct, none of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers understood Biblical soteriology, none of them understood the four gospels, and none of them understood the writings of Paul, Peter, and James . And yet these Ante-Nicene Church Fathers are the men whom God used to canonize the New Testament!

And not only that, if J. Faust and others who believe as he does are correct, almost everyone today misunderstands the Bible . Personally, it is very difficult for me to believe that God is such an ignorant fool as to be unable to write a book that more than a few Christians can understand .

J. Faust admitted to me in personal correspondence that he did not get his doctrines from the Bible . He had read the Bible and studied it many times, but did not find his present doctrines anywhere in the Bible . However, he read some books written by men who told him what the Bible really says, and he believed them and counted as error what he had learned from the Bible, and began teaching what he had learned from men . J. Faust allowed himself to be horribly deceived by foolish men .

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
J. Faust admitted to me in personal correspondence that he did not get his doctrines from the Bible . He had read the Bible and studied it many times, but did not find his present doctrines anywhere in the Bible . However, he read some books written by men who told him what the Bible really says, and he believed them and counted as error what he had learned from the Bible, and began teaching what he had learned from men . J. Faust allowed himself to be horribly deceived by foolish men . [/QB]

I was there.

I participated. We struggled as we poured through the scriptures in tears. At times, we almost came to blows. What you have said here is one of two things:

1) A bold-faced lie.
2) A gross mis-interpretation of your "correspondence".

I know Joey personally. I have read the "men" he "told him what the Bible really says". (Which is a very rich argument friend, considering your position that no one can know what the Bible "really says" unless they invest years in learning dead languages or at least attend a church where there is a good priest, er preacher who has so invested.)

I have been buried many times on there boards by condescending, scoffing verbage. I must admit that no one has ever done it in such a sweet manner as Craig here.

Brother Craig, you obviously have a lot of time and money invested in Rummager propaganda. I'll consider you a brother and go on. I'll stand with the fishermen, the tax collectors, the delivered devil possessed, the lame, the weak, and the one or two "scholars" who came to "count it all dung (you look "dung" up in the greek if you need to brother)." The "do I hate the KJV?" thread is a place where rummagers hang out and pay lip service to the KJV while they politely rail on it. I know you don't "hate" it brother. At least not in the "modern sense of the word".



Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
This brings us to the last sentence in Lacy’s post,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> By consequential do you mean that a Christian will automatically walk holy no matter what?

The word “Christian” does not appear anywhere in the Epistle to the Romans. In Rom. 8:4 we find the pronoun “us”, a reference to “those who are in Christ Jesus.” In 1 Cor. 5:17 we get a good look at what Paul means by the expression “in Christ,”

17. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Notice that Paul says that “the old things have passed away.” He does not say that SOME OF the old things have passed away, but that “the old things have passed away.” A totally inclusive statement using the definite article. Paul uses the expression “in Christ” 74 times (in the KJV). [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Can you answer the question more simply. I never understood your answer. I went to college but I've been dealing with 8th graders for so long that I really need things broken down.

Will a Christian automatically walk holy or not? Do all believers walk "in Christ" at all times practically? If I slap my dog silly in anger, or say a dirty word am I "in Christ" right then?


Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

1) A bold-faced lie.
2) A gross mis-interpretation of your "correspondence".

I have the correspondence to prove that what I said about Mr. Faust is absolutely and totally true. You have falsely accused me without having even read the correspondence. You have no data with which to refute my arguments so you resort to personal attacks, a typical ploy of the woefully ignorant. Willful ignorance is a sin that I chose not to commit, and you rail against me for abstaining from that very sin.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Will a Christian automatically walk holy or not? Do all believers walk "in Christ" at all times practically? If I slap my dog silly in anger, or say a dirty word am I "in Christ" right then?

The terms “Christian” and “believers” are foreign to the theology of Romans 8:1-4. Perhaps you should start a new thread in which those terms can be discussed.


I have a question for you, Do real Christians or believers slap their dogs silly or say dirty words?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I have a question for you, Do real Christians or believers slap their dogs silly or say dirty words?

I believe that was, in part, my question to you. If I am a "real" Christian, will I automatically never sin?


lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

considering your position that no one can know what the Bible "really says" unless they invest years in learning dead languages or at least attend a church where there is a good priest, er preacher who has so invested.)

This is the exact opposite of my position . Mr. Faust, not having any formal education beyond High School nor a knowledge of Biblical languages, read the Bible and understood it until he read some books written by men who confused him .

 

[Craigbythesea]

I believe that was, in part, my question to you. If I am a "real" Christian, will I automatically never sin?

That is a radically different question! You might want to start a thread based on that question.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The Bible says,

1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7. because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able {to do so,}
8. and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I have the correspondence to prove that what I said about Mr. Faust is absolutely and totally true. You have falsely accused me without having even read the correspondence. You have no data with which to refute my arguments so you resort to personal attacks, a typical ploy of the woefully ignorant. Willful ignorance is a sin that I chose not to commit, and you rail against me for abstaining from that very sin.

How much "data" do I need? We (Joey Faust and I) learned the doctrines from the Bible together sitting across the coffee table from one another. (I'll admit that many times we were over the coffee table sharpening one another's steel on one another.)

Then we began to discover a whole wealth of men who had already taught it during a much holier time in church history.

That is the way it happened. I was there.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Mr. Faust, not having any formal education beyond High School nor a knowledge of Biblical languages, read the Bible and understood it until he read some books written by men who confused him .

Oh! Epiphany! If you don't graduate fuom seminary (Peter, Titus, Bartholomew, Luke, John the Baptist, Billy Sunday, Spurgeon, et al.) then you don't really "get your doctrines from the Bible". If you study that KJV for years and years, then your doctrines come from men. I'm sorry. I have greatly mis-judged you.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I have a question for you, Do real Christians or believers slap their dogs silly or say dirty words?

Not if they fear God!

Lacy

2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Craigbythesea]

How much "data" do I need? We (Joey Faust and I) learned the doctrines from the Bible together sitting across the coffee table from one another. (I'll admit that many times we were over the coffee table sharpening one another's steel on one another.)

Then we began to discover a whole wealth of men who had already taught it during a much holier time in church history.

That is the way it happened. I was there.

Your story is 180 degrees different from what Mr. Faust told me.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Your story is 180 degrees different from what Mr. Faust told me.

Sadly, communication usually requires that both participants speak the same language, or at least have an interpreter.

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

Then we began to discover a whole wealth of men who had already taught it during a much holier time in church history.

Who were these men? As you may recall, that is what this thread is really all about? I am trying to learn where the interpretation by Mr. Faust and other Free Grace teachers of Matt. 25:30 came from in the historical perspective.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Oh! Epiphany! If you don't graduate fuom seminary (Peter, Titus, Bartholomew, Luke, John the Baptist, Billy Sunday, Spurgeon, et al.) then you don't really "get your doctrines from the Bible". If you study that KJV for years and years, then your doctrines come from men. I'm sorry. I have greatly mis-judged you.

You still don’t get it! That is NOT my position. NOT AT ALL! I learned all of my essential Bible doctrines from the KJV. An important advantage of a good education is that when other people come around and start teaching false doctrines, the fact that they are false doctrines is much more obvious and one is much less likely to be derailed by them.