Matt. 25:30

[Craigbythesea]

There are some Baptists today who are preaching that Matt. 25:30 is speaking of heaven rather than hell:

30. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I am looking for the earliest known occurrence of this teaching. Can anybody help me with this?

 

[Charles Meadows]

Craig,

There was a discussion about this here:

http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/mat/outer.htm

I think Zane Hodges' book may contain more.

Happy Easter!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good morning! Happy Resurrection Day!

Stop and thinking...

Do you think heaven have prisons, and dark there?

Heaven is a very beautiful place where all righteous people shall dwell there. There is no dark in the heaven. Why? Because God is the light, where He dwells there.

If suppose there is some dark in the heaven. Then, heaven is not a perfect place, God allows sins in the heaven. Huh?

Notice it says, 'outer darkness'. Remember it says OUTSIDE or out of the place. So, therefore, it is NOT within the heaven.

'Outer darkness' describes find in Matt. 8:12; 22:13; and Matt 25:30.

If you think 'outer darkness' is somewhere in the heaven.

I would like you to read Matt. 22:13 "Then said the king to the servants, BIND him HAND AND FOOT, and TAKE AWAY, and CAST him into outer darkeness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Is this verse speaks of heaven? No.

Notice 4 key words in this verse - 'bind', 'HAND", 'FOOT', and 'cast'.

That verse remind me of Matt 18:8, Christ said, "Where if thy HAND or thy FOOT offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.

Do you know what is 'everlasting'? It means forever and ever.

Matt 18:8 is very clear speak of hell/lake of fire.

So, therefore Matt 25:30 - 'outer darkness' is clear speak of everlasting fire.

I have a book - "The Rod" by J.D. Faust. J.D. Faust is a pastor of independent fundamental baptist church.

He does mentioned on Matt 25:30. He saying it is hell. I agree with him.

But, there are many strange interpretings what he say in that book.

He believes when the rapture occurs, when a unfaithful servant face Christ judges. Christ will out of his mouth to fire devour unfaithful servant, send servant down to hell to join with unsaved people. It mentioned in that book - pp. 128- "Carnal Christians will receive this same type of judgment, although temporary. They will be cut asunder by the fire that proceeds out of the Lord's mouth, which goes forth His throne."

Also, he said, "Carnal Christians will return to death and will have to wait unter after the millennium to live again in eternity." - pp. 133.

There are so many strange intepretings in this book. I recommend you better not order that book. He have lot of errors in his own interpreting the Bible.

He is not only person. I heard some people saying Christians who shall lose the reward, will punish stay in the dark place for 1,000 years, not reign with Christ on earth. That is strange.

He believes Matt 25:30 - carnal Christians shall be cast into outer darkness with unsaved people in hell for 1000 years and will miss millennium kingdom with Christ. Then, after millennium kingdom past, carnal Christians will return to live again, and live eternality with Christ.

That is very strange intepreting.

The problem for him is, Matt 25:30 does not saying a person shall free from the outer darkeness.

Remember, Christ tells us, in Matt 22:13 and 18:8, cast into EVERLASTING fire. So, 'outer darkeness' of Matt. 25:30 is NOT a temporary time. It is EVERLASTING!

If you are not satisfy about Matt. 25:30. Then, go look in Luke 13:28 -"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

If this verse seems not clear about hell. Then look above verse 27 - "BUt he say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; DEPART FROM ME ALL YE WORKERS OF INIQUITY."

Do know here it refers to? Matt. 7:23 and **Matt 25:41 - "Then shall say also unto them on the left hand, DEPART FROM ME, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels.."

Obivously, Matt 25:30 speaks of everlasting fire!!!!

Many baptist pastors avoid Matt 25:30 to preach. Why? many hold security salvation doctrine called, 'OSAS'.

Several baptist pastors did preaching on the talents - Matt 25:14-29. They did telling them, that servants is us as Christians. But, many avoid or skip verse 30.

Why? Because they teaching on security salvation - OSAS(Once Saved ALWAYS Saved).

Bible teaching us lot about conditional salvation. In 1,2, and 3 epistles of John describe lot about conditional.

Even, Rev. 13:9-18; and 14:9-11 warning to us if any person worship Antichrist or received the mark of the beast, will cast into everlasting fire.

That mean, it is possible for a Christian worship Antichrist or receive the mark of the beast go to everlasting fire - Matt. 24:24.

We ought take heed attention warnings from the Bible, and obey them.

Why? Jesus Christ loves us so much and he cares us, that why He preached hell more than heaven, because He doesn't want us go to hell.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I will discuss more about Hodges' comment of 'outer darkness' later. I need to get ready go to church now.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

This morning, I read Hodges' site about 'outer darkeness'.

He says,

I'm convinced that the proper argument against those views is that the man was not saved in the FIRST PLACE

Many times, I hear often what they saying.

They are partially correct. Yes, they are not saved in the first place. But, more than that.

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." - Ezekiel 18:24

It tells us, when the RIGHTEOUS turneth away from his righteousness..." .

It tells us, a person is "righteous" is 'believer' or 'just', it showed us, that a saved person who turns away from the rightousness, stay in sinning again, person shall die. Speak of spiritual death, obivous, means person will go direct to hell with sin and wihtout repent.

Obivously,

Christ called them, "servant" of Matt. 25:14,19,21,23,26,30. Servant is us. We are the servant of God. Bible commands us, to serve God.

It warns us, a servant who do not serve the Lord, and not obey Lord, will go to everlasting fire.

Also, I want to show you another verse:

"When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby." - Ezekiel 33:18. It refers same with Ezk. 18:24. It tells us, a just person who turns away from righteousness, and sinning, person shall be DIE.

Look next verse - Ezek. 33:19: "But if the wicked turn FROM his wickedness, and do that is lawful and RIGHT, he shall live thereby."

It tells us, a wicked person who REPENT from sins, and live right, shall LIVE.

Bible oftens emphasis repentance lot.

Today, many churches are lack of preaching on repentance, thank to "Easy Believism", lead many people to hell.

Hodges says:

They didn't accept Jesus as their Messiah

Yes, that is partially correct. In fact, most people reject Jesus Christ.

But, Bible tells us, many people KNOW Jesus Christ, and they do believe in Christ, but they stay in iniquity, and not repent of their sins, go to everlasting punishment.

Matt. 7:21-22 tells us, many people will saying to Christ, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

I believe many religion people who truly doing good works for the Lord. Also, I am no doubt baptists do their works to serve the Lord.

But, Christ shall saying to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work (of what???)INIQUITY."

True, many Christians do serve the Lord. but, I have seeing there are too many hyprocrites everywhere. Because they serve two masters same time, - serve the Lord, and serve the world both same time. Christ tells us, we CAN'T serve two masters same time. We must choose one master at one time. In fact, lot of Christians are serve two masters same time today. Are they on the way to heaven? No.

That why, the Bible oftens emphasis on repent lot.

Lot of people are on the way to everlasting fire because of their wicked life without repent.

Lord interests us with repent, He don't care about our works.

Matt. 7:13-14 is a very obivous fact, more people go to everlasting fire than enter eternal life, because they make their own choice stay in their own wicked way.

Hodges says:

the third slave did not know the Master

Not what Christ actually saying it. Hodges just added unto it.

Of course, third servent KNOWS Jesus Christ, but, not obey Christ's commandment.

Matt. 7:22 tells, servants knows Christ, but stay in iniquity.

True, many servants did believe in Christ- James 2:19.

Being believe in Christ is good enough for saved according to OSAS.

But, there is more than just believe, we have to repent and to obey Christ's commandments.

Hodges says:

Matt. 25:1-13(I added verses)- about the judgments of ISRAELITES.

Matt. 25:1-13 is not what in Christ's mind it apply to the Jews only. Christ speaks of the parable on the individuals either Jew or Gentile. Matt. 25:1-13 always apply to us as individual, that we ought always be ready and be watch for Lord's coming. Five wise virgins with oil are ready apply to our spiritual life. That we are walking godly daily for the Lord, and we must be blameless at the Lord's coming, so, we must be prepare and be alert for Christ's coming. Five foolish virgins without oil apply to individual who are remain in dark with iniquity are not watch for Christ's coming, will be ashamed and go to everlasting fire.

Hodges says:

Matt. 25:31-46 about the judgment of the GENTILES.

Christ does not actually saying the judgement is for the Gentiles only. Christ speaks on Matt. 25:31-46 to every individuals over the world both Jews and Gentiles.

Hodges says:

The salvation context of this use of the terms "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" make it clear that this is not merely about loss of rewards

Correct. So, therefore, Matt. 25:26-30 clear telling us, lazy servant shall go into everlasting fire.

I forget to add verse about "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Matt 13:42 says, "And shall cast them into a furnace of FIRE; there shall be WAILING and GNASHING OF TEETH."

There is no difference between 'outer darkness' and 'hell' both are same.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Charles Meadows]

I strongly agree with Deafposttrib! This isn't the only point on which Hodges is mixed up (Ha Ha).

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ooooops! I misreading above, it was not from Hodges', it was written by Hampton Keathley. I received a grade 'F' for reading! Excuse me!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I strongly agree with Deafposttrib! This isn't the only point on which Hodges is mixed up (Ha Ha).

Charles Meadows,

Thank you for your help. I would like to know precisely what you think about:

1. Zane Hodges

2. The "outer darkness" in Matthew

I very much want to know who first taught that the "outer darkness" is in heaven or a "suburb of it."

 

[Craigbythesea]

DeafPosttrib,

Thank you for your input into this thread. Do I correctly understand you to believe that OSAS is a false doctrine?

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
There are some Baptists today who are preaching that Matt. 25:30 is speaking of heaven rather than hell:

30. "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I am looking for the earliest known occurrence of this teaching. Can anybody help me with this?

Where is the hell? It is in the heart of the earth.

Where is the outer darkness? Out from the light of Heaven. It is in the universe where God sends unsaved people in the lake of fire. That is what I think.

 

[Bartholomew]

I just spent ages writing a message, clicked on "add reply", got some kind of error message, and now it's vanished! I don't have time to re-write it all, but I'd just encourage PostDeafTrib to re-read the appendix at the back of the book he referenced, "The Rod: Will God Spare it?" This clearly shows how scripture uses terms such as "everlasting" at times to refer to things that do not last for all infinity (e.g. Ex 21:6, Jude 1:6&7, Lev 10:15). The fact that the fire is said to be "everlasting" should be unstood in regard to the context, which is the "kingdom of heaven" -the 1000 year reign of Christ. Therefore the fact that it is "everlasting" could simply mean it lasts for the whole duration of the kingdom. Yes, these verses do not teach that one may leave this fire, but Rev 20 clearly DOES teach this - ALL the dead come out of hell at the end of the 1000 years. And those whose names are written in the book of life are not cast into the lake of fire. Matthew 25 is talking of believers being banished to hell for the duration of the kingdom. This is backed up by a very large number of scriptures.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Keep in mind,

Does, Jesus saying, a person will finally release out of the outer darkeness after 1,000 years end - Matt 25:30?

Christ does not saying it.

Christ saying in Matt 13:41-42, when Christ comes with his angels, all unbelievers shall be cast into fire, there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. This is same as describe of Matt 25:30.

Also, Christ tells us, angels shall separate unbelievers from the just, and cast them into the furnance of fire, there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There is none mentioned of a thousand years find anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 13 and chapter 25 too.

Obivously, Matt. 25:30 speaks of everlasting fire is lake of fire.

Believe what Christ saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Often, in the book- "The Rod", he saying, 'kingdom of heaven' is 1,000 years millennial kingdom.

That is his logical. Nothing saying about millennial kingdom find anywhere of verses on 'kingdom of God/heaven.

Kingdom of God/heaven is an eternality kingdom, not an temporary kingdom. Also, he speaks of eternal life also.

Faust believes Gal. 5:21 speaks of not inherit into millennial kingdom in pp. 4.- "The above Scripture reveal that the future millennial kingdom is a reward for faithfulness."

That's his misintepreting.

Gal. 5:21 saying nothing about faithful and reward.

Paul named of these sins that sinners cannot enter the kingdom of God, he speaks of they cannot enter eternal life, because of their sins.

Also, Faust interprets Matthew 6:33 'But seek ye first the kingdom of God..." speaks of future millennial kingdom.

But, not what Christ actaully saying. He never use word, 'a thousand years' while he taught to his disciples on earth in his ministry.

Christ speaks of seeking God's things, not earthly things. Means God's blessings will add to us, that we do not worry about clothe, food, drinking, take no thought(worry) about it. Earth things are temporary, everything will be pass away. Think of eternality things are above in heaven of God's things.

Faust saying, "Jesus warns true believers about missing the future millennial kingdom (Matthew 5:20, 7:21, 13:41(speak of eternality fire, not millennial kingdom!!)-emphasis mine)18:3, 23, 35, 19:23-25, 22:2, 13, 25:1, 11-13, Mark 9:38, 47, 10:15,23, Luke 9:62, 13:23-28, 14:15, 24, 18:17, 24, 19:12, 26). So does the apostle Paul (Acts 14:22, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Galatians 5:21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Thessalonians 2:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:5, Hebrews 3:14, 19, 4:1, 11, 12:28)!" - pp. 77

He have so much of errors. And his teaching is so strange.

Faust's interpreting on Matt 7:13 is very strange. He said, "There are many passages in the Bible that plainly teach that disobedient Christians are in danger of missing the millennial kingdom: Matthew 7:13 'Enter ye in at the strait gate:...' Christ is here addressing His disciples who already believe upon Him(John 3:16). The strait gate is entrance into the millennium. Matthew 7:21 'Not every one that saith unto me,....' Believer who walk in disobedience are in danger of missing the kingdom."

He have lot of errors in his own intepreting the verses what Christ was talking about.

Matthew chapter 7 speaks of two places where people shall go to eternal life, or eternal punishment - heaven or hell, very simple, no complex. Also, in mind, Christ does not mentioned, 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 7.

He said, "Carnal Christians will return to death and will have to wait until after the millennium to live again in eternity. This is the context and teaching of Romans 6-8"

His teaching is unbiblical. Apostle Paul never mentioned 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Romans chapter 6 to 8.

He also, say: "Every unfaithful Christian will mourn the loss of the millennial kingdom and will have to wait 1000 years to be reunited with the faithful saints in bliss and glory."- pp. 133

His teaching is unbiblical.

Nothing saying anywhere in the Bible that unfaithful servant will have to stay in the outer darkness till after 1000 years expired, then be reunited with faithful servants.

Matt 25:30 is so very clear teaching us, a unfaithful servant will go straight to everlasting punishment, no promise for a unfaithful servant shall be release from outer darkness at once.

Also, Faust have another very strange teaching: "This is the "second death" that burns before His throne (before which every believer must one day appear). It is there that these believers will be temporarily slain. It is called the second death because it occurs after the raising of the body from the effects of the first death (Revelation 20:5)."- pp. 148

UNBELIEVEABLE!!! No excuse for him, he knows better than that. "Second Death" simple means eternality death - lake of fire!

Faust intepreted Rev. 2:11 is strange way. Rev. 2:11 tells us, if any Christians shall overcome, will NOT hurt the second death. Means, if any Christians victory, will not enter eternality punishment. If any Christians fail to victory, will suffer the second death - eternality death same with Matt 25:30. Faust knows that! But, somehow, he interpreting instrange way on Rev. 2:11 - pp. 148.

Last summer, I did reading that book through half in 2 days, I could have finish that books in 2 days more left, but I decided to stop, because I already see so many strange and errors intepretings in that book.

Bible emphasis 'heaven of God/heaven' speaks of eternality kingdom, not millennium. John 3:3,7 tell us, we must be born again(repent) to enter the kingdom of heaven/God, or if we do not born again, we cannot enter the kingdom of God/heaven, means we go to everlasting punihsment.

See?

No excuse for baptist pastors know bettter than that, Matt 25:30 is very clear speak of everlasting punishment, NOT a temporary place!

The reason they avoid it, because of security salvation.

I used to believe in security salvation for so LONG TIME as I am baptist. Now, I am no longer believe security salvation according what Independent Fundamental Baptist teaches. I rather follow what the Bible saying than men's teaching - Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
I just spent ages writing a message, clicked on "add reply", got some kind of error message, and now it's vanished! I don't have time to re-write it all, ...

I usually take it God didn't want me to say
that right now. I usually type my messages
off to the side and just dump them
to the posting page. But sometimes i type
on the posting page. If i then loose it,
i construe that God doesn't want that
said now by me.

BTW, there is a difference, as you suggest,
that that which has eternal consequences
is DIFFERENT from that which is eternal
in extent. In the eternal consequences
case, the consequences, not the cause
of the eternal consequences, are eternal
in extent.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I keep seeing "all" stuck into the conversation (by two
different sides). The "all" is not literally in the
Bible. It may be figuratively there, but the word
is NOT literally there.

We probably need to talk about the word "all".

ALL, adj. - each and every member of the given set

Unfortunately, in prophetic literature, the
set is often not exclusively identified and
the set can refer to a figurative list of members
as well as or as opposed to the literal members
of the set. I.E. "ALL" is totally dependant upon
the one doning the understanding of the passage.

DeafPosttrib: "Christ saying in Matt 13:41-42, when Christ comes with his angels, all unbelievers shall be cast into fire, there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

I don't see the word "all" in Matthew 13:41-42.

Bartholomew: " ... but Rev 20 clearly DOES teach this - ALL the dead come out of hell at the end of the 1000 years."

I don't see the word "all" in Revelation used in respect to
the set: {the unjust dead}. (though i admit "the rest"
in verse 5 comes mighty close to "all {the unjust dead}. )

 

[Bartholomew]

DeafPosttib,

Again, I must appologize that I do not have the time to write a full reply to our message. However, I would point out that:

1. The fact that Jesus did not mention "1000 years" does not mean that he was not refering to this. On the contrary, many of the passages you site DO talk about "the kingdom of heaven" (some others talk about "the kingdom of God"), which Rev 20 tells us lasts 1000 years. This is the context of Jesus' statements. The argument that "it doesn't say 1000 years" is the argument amillennialists use to argue against finding references to the millennium anywhere in the Bible. For example, can you show me any Old Testament passages that talk about "1000 years"? Does that mean there are no passages refering to that kingdom in the Old Testament? Both OT and NT talk of a future, physical kingdom without saying how long it lasts. Rev 20 alone tells us that. If you don' think the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven is that kingdom, have a look at how the terms are used: many, many times they are used of something future and physical. Even John 3 tells us that it is possible to "see" the kingdom of God! When was the last time YOU it??? Yes, there are a few passages that are difficult in this interpretation, but not as many as in yours.

2. The fact that some of those passages talk about casting into "hell" actually proves that this must be BEFORE the 1000 years, since AFTER the 1000 years the dead come OUT of hell, and are cast into the lake of fire! (Rev 20). We must compare scripture with scripture to get a full picture. Details are often found in different places. The same goes for almost any doctrine - e.g. would you argue that Acts 16:31 doesn't teach salvation by grace through faith, just because it doesn't mention "everlasing life", the "Holy Spirit", or the fate of the wicked???

3. Again, I urge you to read the appendix at the back of that book (only a few pages long) that clearly shows how wods such as "for ever" and "everlasing" do not always mean "for all infinity", and are limited by the context. If you STILL disagree with that fact, please explain Ex 21:6.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I will discuss more about the judgment day and everlasting fire.

I understand Exodus 21:6 so very clear. During Old Testament period, in their custom and society, they do have their own slavery.

The law saying, a servant must serve master for 6 years. After 6 years, servant can go free if want to. Or, if a servant LOVE master- Ex. 21:5, want to serve the master longer, then the master will put servant's ear at doorpost, and bore servant's ear as awl(Broadman & Holman KJV) or aul(The Defined KJB)sticky on the post. Shows, that the servant stays with it forever, the servant serve his master all his life till death.

Not hard to read what 'for ever', what it means.

I think, in your mind, that servant will be finally release or free from master or slavery at his death, prove it is temporary time.

My understanding of Ex. 21:5-6(suggest read whole chapter if you want to) apply our spiritual serving, that we should serve the Lord all the way without end. In another word, we cannot serve two masters same time, must choose one master at one time. God commands us, to serve him all the time, even will continue to serve God forever after our physical death - reigning with Christ.

Remember, Jesus Christ is our master, we are His servant.

We are always Lord's servant forever and ever without end.

Later, I will continue discuss more about the judgment and 'outer darkness' even, also "kingdom" too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Not hard to read what 'for ever', what it means.

And what DOES it really mean? Obviously, in this context, it means until he dies. That's probably less than 70 years. Wow - "for ever" can mean for 70 years!!! So why do you have a problem with it meaning for a thousand years? Again, I would suggest you read appendix Appenxix A on p. 389 of the book you refer to, and then you will see that many Bible dictionaries, and the Bible itself, disagree with your assertion that "for ever" and "everlasting" mean "to continue for all infinity".

I think, in your mind, that servant will be finally release or free from master or slavery at his death, prove it is temporary time.

The text says he will serve him for ever. Do you think he serves him after he dies? Are slaves still serving their masters in the realms of the dead? Will they continue to serve them after Christ's return???

As I showed before, the context of many of these passages is the kingdom. And Rev 20 tells us how long it lasts.

Besides, even if WERE true that "everlasting" always means "to continue for all infinity", the argument still doesn't stand, because Rev 20 clearly teaches that the dead will come OUT of that everlasting fire and darkness, and if their names are found in the book of life, then the strong implication is that they will not be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Bartholomew]

Coming back to your question, Craig, you might argue that R.E. Neighbour (1872-1945) believed something like that. He believed that believers would be cast into outer-darkness, but did said he did not understand where this was (see the book, "If by any means" - I think it's online somewhere actually). OK, that's not saying it's in heaven, but it's the closest I know of. Simply, it seems to me that those who place it in heaven are right in seeing it as a punishment of belivers, but just aren't going as far as early fundamentalists who rightly pointed out that some Christians will spend the 1000 years somewhere much worse than heaven...

 

[Craigbythesea]

Bartholomew,

Thank you for your information. Now I have another question for you, who are the

early fundamentalists who rightly pointed out that some Christians will spend the 1000 years somewhere much worse than heaven...

I have done much reading regarding the teaching that the “outer darkness” is in heaven. Zane Hodges, one of the leaders of the Grace Evangelical Society, is the leading proponent of that teaching. I am still searching for authors earlier than Zane Hodges who specifically taught that interpretation. Does anyone know anything more about R.E. Neighbour (1872-1945) and his teaching on this subject?