Matthew 15:24 Rewrite?

[JD731]

1) Salvation is not "defined" as being indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

2) My list was not limited to Old Testament Gentiles who were saved.

3) These Old Testament saints were not taken to Hades and torment when they physically died, thus they were saved from that aspect of sin's consequence.

4) While it is true that the sequence of steps which brought them to heaven differed under the Old Covenant, the end result was their being made perfect and being brought to heaven.

5) Paradise is the third heaven, and is not Abraham's bosom.

How is "Salvation" defined? In Christ = Saved, Not in Christ = Not saved or Not Yet Saved.

So your claim is that anyone who under the Old Covenant obtained approval through faith, was Not Yet Saved, as in Eternally Saved. The Problem of course is that no plan of God can be thwarted. So before Christ died, those set aside for salvation were not yet saved in that they had not been made perfect, washed with the blood of the Lamb, and had not been indwelt, or sealed spiritually in Christ.

6) I suspect you will not agree that Gentiles were set apart for eternal salvation through faith before AD 37, and that you were in error.

Van, while no one gave you a thumbs up for these comments or said they agree with you, probably most people here would say you are not far wrong, but I do. Logic and reason says that if one is dead (Simply meaning they are separated from God by their sins) and by faith in Christ will wash away their personal sins and God can now dwell with them in their bodies in the person of the Holy Spirit, then one has the definition of salvation from the penalty of sin (eternal death). I am at a loss to understand why the brightest guy intellectually on this forum cannot see that.

Of your six points I can say we do not agree on any of them.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Van]

SNIP
Of your six points I can say we do not agree on any of them.
SNIP
.

And yet you may know that personal incredulity is just another fallacious argument ploy.

 

[JD731]

SNIP
yet you may know that personal incredulity is just another fallacious argument ploy.

See! This is what I mean. You are too smart and use too big of words for a simple person like me. I do not have a clue what you mean by "personal incredulity" and "another fallacious argument ploy" in the context of our conversation and the subject of the op. You have to keep it on the bottom shelf for me.

My simple statement regarding your 6 doctrines was that I think you are not understanding any of them and have reached wrong conclusions about them. I personally think some of them go to basic fundamentals of the Christian faith. Now, this does not mean I am accusing you of anything because there are two of us in this conversation and it could well be me who is believing and teaching false doctrine and in danger although you have not made any convincing argument to that effect from the scriptures.

Concerning your point "1 that I have offered some commentary on already, I do not understand how it is that one who receives the Spirit of God into his mortal body, thus becoming a "new creature" (2 Cor 5:17) through this "new birth" and being "sealed" (Ep 4:30) is not the definition of salvation from sin. What is salvation from sin if this is not it? Under what terms did we receive the Spirit if he is indeed in those of us, that is in our bodies quickening us, who claim we are saved?

Inquiring minds wants to know the answers to these questions and wants to know why you do not understand this and teach something contrary to it?

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
This is a either or verse.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Why is this truth so hard to grasp when it is stated so simply. Sin dwells in the body of the unsaved man and he is dead in the true meaning of the word. Sin hinders God from being there, but when a man willingly believes, the Spirit of God enters into his body, never to leave it, and quickens it by his presence in it. This is called life because the Spirit is God and the life of God. The spirit cleanses the body of sin by washing it and replaces sin with the righteousness of Jesus Christ (which is the Spirit himself we are told in other places). This is the doctrine of imputation. The saved man does not have his own righteousness to boast about but he actually has the very righteousness of Jesus Christ when he receives his Spirit that was his, Christ's righteousness while he lived on the earth. He was a tri-partite man from his birth, something we are not until we are saved.

I am trying to exalt Jesus Christ here and to tell you what salvation is. The Spirit of Jesus Christ is the gift of God and eternal life given to everyone who believes and receives this good news of God's salvation through him. I am saved because Jesus Christ died for me and rose again from the dead and I believe it and God has given me his Spirit to quicken me. He is my only boast.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ponder these things.

 

[JD731]

This incident with the woman in Matt 15 must be viewed prophetically. It is important to understand the circumstances in Israel and with the Jewish people at the time this happened. Why did Jesus go towards gentiles at this time? Why did he include this story in Matthew 15? Why was it a woman who occupies the subject? Why is it sandwiched between the miracle of the feeding of the 5000 plus women and children in Matthew 14 with 12 baskets left over and the feeding of the 4000 plus women and children with 7 baskets full left over in chapter 15?

What was the status of Jesus among the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem at this time? Was he not under the sentence of death by these rulers? Had they not decided to put him to death as recorded in Mt 12?

What is the prophetical significance that John the Baptist is killed by Herod in the beginning of chapter 14 and later the disciples are sent across the sea in a ship only to be in great danger by the storm that came upon them in the absence of Jesus in the ship. Is this the same thing that Jesus predicts in Matthew 24 concerned the Jewish religious system being destroyed by the Roman Army in AD 70 when a million Jews were killed and the Jewish temple disassembled?

What was next in time? It was a time of 3 days as God counts days, 1000 years for a day, that no OT prophecy has dominated the scene and a mystery form of the kingdom has taken place by the absence of the King and the nation of Israel has laid in the graves of the nations, dead in her sins, awaiting a resurrection and glorification, which is promised in the OT scriptures as well as the NT..

This is not a happenstance occurrence with this gentile woman. She represents the gentile church that is being formed in this 3 day period from the death and burial of Israel to her resurrection and glorification in time very early on the third day. This woman cannot appeal for mercy based on OT covenants but must depend of the mercy and grace of God and this she did. Because of this transition in the providential works of God this gentile woman received her requests by faith and not by covenant promise.

The very next thing is confirmation for that truth if one will receive it. Follow the logic and the truth for this whole church age. Read it carefully because this includes much more than he explained to the woman when he first met her. That is that he was not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel Note what he says;



Mt 1429 And Jesus departed from thence, and came nigh unto the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain, and sat down there.
30 And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:
31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel. (do you recognize these guys from the parable when Jesus sent out those to invite them to the marriage supper because those who were bidden would not come)
32 Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.
33 And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?
34 And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
35 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground.
36 And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
37 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full.
38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
39 And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala.

This is what happened for gentiles after the incident with the ship on the sea and the great storm. But The scriptures teach us that the Jewish remnant will be first to realize the blessings of this age, and that is what happened in chapter 14.

Mt 14:32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole. (the remnant doctrine)

The sea represents the masses in type.

Matthew is concerned with teaching about the kingdom of God. He sees the responsibility of this generation of Jesus Christ to fulfill their purpose of recognizing and receiving their Messiah and King through repentance and belief in him. When they failed as the people of God by unbelief, Matthew revealed a mystery form of the kingdom in chapter 13 that was not national and was without physical boundaries but had a beginning and an ending.

Those who reject the kingdom of God prophecies that are established by everlasting and eternal covenants to Abraham's seed will never understand the spiritual nature of this Bible and are likely to change the words, making it even more difficult for them.

Prophecies are about restoring the Kingdom of God that was usurped by the devil from Adam whether anyone in this day believes it or not. Jesus Christ will be King when the smoke clears and the boundaries will be the whole earth.

 

[Van]

Returning to topic,

Nearly all published English translations listed on Biblegateway, translate Matthew 15:24 one of two ways:

I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, or
I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The alternative translation offered for consideration in this thread is:

I was not sent only among the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Nearly every post from others on this thread has objected to the alternative translation on bogus grounds:

1) The claim was made that in order to translate the phrase "El me" as only, it must also include "ou."
This was demonstrated false by citing multiple verses where "El me" was translated as "only" without the inclusion of "ou."

2) The claim was made that the only lost sheep are from the Jews, that Gentiles cannot be lost, because they never belonged to God's chosen people, the Jews. However, any of "the sheep" (humanity) that has no shepherd, can be considered a "lost" sinner. 1 Timothy 1:15 and Luke 19:10.

 

[JD731]

There is no passages in the scriptures that says gentiles are lost sinners. They are just plain sinners. Luke 19:10 is in the context the first coming that was to no one except his own people and nation. It is dishonest to forward a text like 1 Tim 1:15 to prove the gentiles are lost when it does not say that at all. It just says they are sinners.

This is the problem when men do not believe that the words God gave to us are very very precise. To receive the spiritual content of the mind of God one must learn how he thinks and also his ways. We must have his words for that. His truths are proven by his words especially as they are compared. For any one reading this thread one can see how the posters here attempts to prove what they say by posting scripture references that say nothing that is claimed. When one reads these scriptures he will see that they do not even have the words in them that the user is attempting to prove or that a broad brush is being used that paints outside the intention of the writer.

When I wrote about Matthew I did not attempt to apply it to myself but understood I was reading a real event that was designed by God to show spiritual light on his prosecution of his purpose by regeneration. A renewal of the intended original purpose is where we are headed in time and along the way we get to see the awesome power and wisdom of God in this process, along with all his character attributes.

My advice is for the person who hears someone say that God has given many ways of expressing his words is to run the other way quickly.

One must ask questions of the text and then be prepared to receive the answers the scriptures give.

 

[Van]

Luke 19:10
“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Here Jesus came to save that which was lost.

1Timothy 1:15
It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.

Here Jesus came to save sinners.

Luke 15:24
for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Here, someone separated from the Father is lost, such as a sinner.

Jesus was not sent only among lost Jews, because He was sent to seek and save sinners.

 

[JD731]

Luke 19:10
“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Here Jesus came to save that which was lost.

1Timothy 1:15
It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.

Here Jesus came to save sinners.

Luke 15:24
for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Here, someone separated from the Father is lost, such as a sinner.

Jesus was not sent only among lost Jews, because He was sent to seek and save sinners.

Luke 15 proves the point I have been making. This is the younger son of this father, who, the father, in metaphor represents the Father in heaven. The son is definitely a possession of this Father! The Father is a New Testament doctrine as he relates to Jesus Christ. The lost son is the northern kingdom of Israel in this typical and prophetic teaching while the elder son represents Judah. Obviously the elder son is born first but in Jeremiah, Ephraim (the northern kingdom) is said to be the firstborn son of God. This is a reference to the physical birth, Judah, and the second birth, Ephraim.

This is not foreign to the scriptures but is a subject of the metaphors throughout history of the Bible. Jesus himself was born of the flesh, the only begotten son of God in John 3:16 and the first born son of God from the dead in Col 1:18. This is his birth by the Spirit. This is resurrection from the dead. Same person, different relationship. Death means one thing in the scriptures, separation. What did the father in Luke 15 say in my Bible when the son was reunited with the father?

Lu 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

This is forever the definition from scripture of what it means to be dead.

It means to be separated from God.

Again, I acknowledge that your Bible probably does not say the same things as my Bible says. They have different words that mean different things. We will likely never agree because of this. You demonstrate regularly that you do not have any words you are willing to trust. Scholarship is your god in a sense.

Gentiles were not the possession of the Father. They are not lost by being separated. They are separated by being in a different family that is not the family of God. Israel was the collective son of God by physical birth.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Lk 15 illustrates the prophetic intention of God for Israel to receive the collective new birth sometime in the future. We today have the distinctive privilege of looking backward in history to see how God's purpose is playing out.