Matthew 16:21-23 and Satan's Role in the Crucifixion of Jesus

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are making an assumption.

The normal reading of the passage does not indicate a desire of Satan but rather a temptation of Christ. This is further demonstrated in the Garden as Christ prayed that the cup pass.

"Satan" means adversary. There is satan in a general sense and then there is Satan as the Devil (the Adversary of man).

This is what Scripture says about the influence of the Devil as directly related to Christ's death:

John 8:37–46 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "


You are making an error, one often made, by considering the Devil as God's equal.

But the Devil has come down to you with great fury, because he knows his time is short. Satan means adversary. The Devil knows God will prevail, that God's Word will stand. He has great anger because he knows his time is short.

Wrong. Your merely pronouncing something as the "normal" reading does not make it so.

Furthermore, the Greek word rendered as "Satan" in this passage always refers to Satan in every other occurrence in the Greek NT. You have to prove that the word does not have the same referent here.

I am not making any such error of "considering the Devil as God's equal." This is an absurd and baseless claim about what I believe and understand the Bible to teach. I know very well that Satan is merely a created being and is as nothing in comparison to God.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Care to share what you believe to be 'Satan's Role in the Crucifixion of Jesus"?

I am in the process of determining what I believe about that subject based on what Scripture actually says. I am not presently at the point where I am ready to set forth any settled position.

 

[JonC]

I am going to fast and pray about whether I should be grieved, if not simply fatigued, at all these posts where Satan is so heavily emphasized and raised up to prominence, as the principal main attraction and first in order of importance, and main one behind the death of Jesus, as if the death of Jesus was "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Satan."

What's the attraction and obsession with Satan, only?

Horror, of Horrors, you know, I bet there is some actual reason behind this puff Satan business.

And, I'll have to find out, but I really don't want to know.
...

"Shockingly, Jesus responded to Peter's statement by addressing Peter as Satan! Saying this, Jesus undeniably communicated that what Peter said was not of God, but rather was what Satan wanted."

So, Jesus undeniably communicated that what Peter said, about not wanting Jesus to die, was not of God. That says that for Jesus to die was God's will.

You are saying that Satan agreed with Peter when he said, "Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee."

Satan didn't want to think about any consideration of Jesus being killed, and was dead set against Jesus being crucified?

You say in your next statement that you believe what Peter said about wanting to stop Jesus from dying was, an "an expression of the desires of... Satan that Jesus would not ... be killed and be raised again the third day."

Satan didn't want Jesus to die?

Satan knew Jesus would rise from the dead?

Satan knew Jesus would rise from the dead, and did not desire that Jesus be crucified?

"Peter's statements thus were an expression of the desires of both men and Satan that Jesus would not suffer at the hands of the Jewish authorities and be killed and be raised again the third day."
...

Although, Peter didn't deliver up Jesus to be crucified, Judas, Pilate, the Jews and soldiers did and they were all most certainly influenced by Satan to do so.

However, Satan didn't work out any kind of murdering scheme that wasn't 1.) the absolutely determined will of the Lord Jesus, God of the Universe, and 2.) The Activity of God in His Omnipotent Providence.

Your Satan you seemingly want to exalt, is a miniscule pawn, that had a role to play, as just a sideshow idiosyncrasy used by God in His overall Eternal Plan.

Satan is doomed.

Acts 2:23
"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

"Him being delivered,"....

1.) By himself, according to his own will, for he gave, or delivered himself for his people;

2.) and by his Father, who spared him not, but delivered him up for us all;

3.) and by Judas, one of his disciples, who, for a sum of money, delivered him into the hands of the Jews;

4.) and by them he was delivered up to Pilate, the Roman governor; and by him

5.) back again to the Jews, and to the soldiers, to crucify him:

"and all this by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God;

"God not only foreknew that it would be, but determined that it should be, who does all things after the counsel of his own will;

"and this for the salvation of his people,

"and for the glorifying of his divine perfections:

"though this fixed resolution, settled purpose, and wise determination of God, did not in the least excuse the sin of Judas in betraying him, or of Pilate in condemning him, or of the Jews in crucifying him; nor did it at all infringe the liberty of their wills in acting, who did what they did, not by force, but voluntarily:"
...



Here, you have a red flag conundrum here , with regard to the BB, maybe, sort of.

Maybe, being Jesus, He'd just get a pass.

Anyway, first of all we have Jesus calling someone Satan, which I believe could be viewed here, as Jesus accusing someone else of being lost.

"What else does calling someone Satan mean", is the last thing we may hear, before being banned, for questioning someone's Salvation,

AND, for not having a Christlike Spirit.

But, this is your,
"Matthew 16:21-23 and Satan's Role in the Crucifixion of Jesus", post.

I might just need to post another thread, like,
"Would Jesus be Banned from the BB, for not being Christlike?"

It's a mystery.

I think we have to take Scripture for what it says on all accounts.

Many times God emphasizes the role of the Devil in killing Jesus. BUT many times God emphasizes that this was God's plan, that the Father sent the Sin for this purpose, and the Son lay down His own life for this purpose, all with an end result (But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power).

There is the one side - the actions of men "doing the desires of the Devil" - concluding with a "but" and then the other side - the predetermined plan of God concluding with the Resurrection.

All of that is true because God said it.


@Scripture More Accurately is elevating the Devil, I don't believe intentionally, by focusing on the will of the Devil.

The Devil is angry. His "fierce wrath" is poured out on Christ. BUT he is angry because he knows his time is short.

There are no passages that present the Devil as believing he will defeat God. But there are numerous passages stating that the Devil is man's adversary, has to have permission from God to act, knows he is to be destroyed (God actually told him this in Genesis), and is acting in great anger.

 

[kyredneck]

I was not think particularly of you.
But I was thinking specifically of the text in the O.P., Matthew 16:21-23, and all I recall is you trotting out reams of stuff concerning another text, just as you have done here.

Hodge's second rule of interpretation:

2. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.

The 'reams of stuff I trotted out' was scripture that your cockamamie notion, that not only was Satan not involved but that he tried to stop the crucifixion, contradicted.

 

[JonC]

Wrong. Your merely pronouncing something as the "normal" reading does not make it so.

Furthermore, the Greek word rendered as "Satan" in this passage always refers to Satan in every other occurrence in the Greek NT. You have to prove that the word does not have the same referent here.

I am not making any such error of "considering the Devil as God's equal." This is an absurd and baseless claim about what I believe and understand the Bible to teach. I know very well that Satan is merely a created being and is as nothing in comparison to God.

You are wrong because you are using one passage to reject other passages. The proof that you are wrong is in Scripture (you deny what does not suit your argument because you see those verses as contradicting your argument).


You are wrong because you present the Devil as not seeking Christ's death. You are not wrong in that the Devil is behind the temptation.


John 8:37–46 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I think we have to take Scripture for what it says on all accounts.

Many times God emphasizes the role of the Devil in killing Jesus. BUT many times God emphasizes that this was God's plan, that the Father sent the Sin for this purpose, and the Son lay down His own life for this purpose, all with an end result (But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power).

There is the one side - the actions of men "doing the desires of the Devil" - concluding with a "but" and then the other side - the predetermined plan of God concluding with the Resurrection.

All of that is true because God said it.


@Scripture More Accurately is elevating the Devil, I don't believe intentionally, by focusing on the will of the Devil.

The Devil is angry. His "fierce wrath" is poured out on Christ. BUT he is angry because he knows his time is short.

There are no passages that present the Devil as believing he will defeat God.

I am not doing any such thing. This is a false claim on your part.

Studying carefully what Scripture says is essential. I know very well what the other passages say.

I have never made any claim that there are any "passages that present the Devil as believing he will defeat God."

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are wrong because you are using one passage to reject other passages. The proof that you are wrong is in Scripture (you deny what does not suit your argument because you see those verses as contradicting your argument).

You are wrong because you present the Devil as not seeking Christ's death.

All of these statements are false claims about me. I have not rejected any passages. I reject how you have handled some of them.

 

[JonC]

All of these statements are false claims about me. I have not rejected any passages. I reject how you have handled some of them.

I handled the passage by quoting the passage -

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “


Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the desires of their father the Devil?

This is my thread. I get to decide what I am going to talk about. You have your threads to discuss that subject that you want to discuss the way that you want to discuss it.

It is not fair for you to come to my thread and try to make my thread a discussion of what you want to discuss instead of what I want to discuss.

 

[JonC]

This is my thread. I get to decide what I am going to talk about. You have your threads to discuss that subject that you want to discuss the way that you want to discuss it.

It is not fair for you to come to my thread and try to make my thread a discussion of what you want to discuss instead of what I want to discuss.

Now, you don't get to control the thread or who responds. My question is on topic to the thread (Satan's role in the crucifixion).

Many of us believe that Scripture explains Scripture, that verses are not contradictions.

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “

It is a simple question I asked, and important to the topic:

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil, doing the desires of the Devil?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Now, you don't get to control the thread or who responds. My question is on topic to the thread (Satan's role in the crucifixion).

Many of us believe that Scripture explains Scripture, that verses are not contradictions.

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “


Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil?

You are free to believe what you want to believe.

 

[JonC]

You are free to believe what you want to believe.

We are all free to believe what we want to believe. And we are all free to argue our beliefs on these threads. I am asking what you believe.

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “

It is a simple question I asked, and important to the topic:

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil, doing the desires of the Devil?

 

[kyredneck]

Scripture speaks of Satan's provoking David to number the people (1 Chron. 21:1)

Who moved David?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

We are all free to believe what we want to believe. And we are all free to argue our beliefs on these threads. I am asking what you believe.

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “

It is a simple question I asked, and important to the topic:

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil, doing the desires of the Devil?

There are many passages and questions that are important to the topic. It is not fair for you to try to force a discussion on someone else's thread that they do not want to discuss the way that you want to discuss it.

 

[kyredneck]

I am in the process of determining what I believe about that subject based on what Scripture actually says..

A good place to begin, at the very beginning.

 

[37818]

@Scripture More Accurately,
regarding Matthew 16:21-23, ". . . But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." Jesus used the Hebrew word for being an adversary for Peter bcause Peter "savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." Compare Numbers 22:22, Moses' use of the term regarding the LORD God opposing Balaam.

 

[kyredneck]

This is my thread. I get to decide what I am going to talk about. You have your threads to discuss that subject that you want to discuss the way that you want to discuss it.

...scratching my head wondering what prompted you to start this thread to begin with...

 

[JonC]

There are many passages and questions that are important to the topic. It is not fair for you to try to force a discussion on someone else's thread that they do not want to discuss the way that you want to discuss it.

Again, Scripture addressed the OP (Satan's role in the crucifixion).

You started the thread. I agree that the Devil was behind Peter's temptation to Christ (Christ Himself expressed a desire not to suffer and die while also desiring to do the Father's will).

BUT that is not the only passage that speaks of the Devil's role.

As Christians it is important to examine God's Word (not just pick out one passage we think could be used to support an idea).

Scripture interprets Scripture. ALL of Scripture is God's Word and needs to be considered when answering the OP.

It is wrong to ignore God's Word when trying to address the role of the Devil in the Crucifixion.


"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “

It is a simple question I asked, and important to the topic:

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil, doing the desires of the Devil?

 

[JonC]

A good place to begin, at the very beginning.

Unfortunately @Scripture More Accurately does not desire to examine Scripture more accurately. He cannot bring himself/ herself to answer one very basic question. What he/ she is doing is simply trying to use a verse to support an idea, so the rest of God's Word simply doesn't matter.

But we have to rely on God and God's Word to answer the OP. It is impossible to dismiss God and rely only on three verses to determine what those three verses do not actually address.

 

[JonC]

The OP is about the Devil's role in the Crucifixion and Matthew 16:21-23.

In order to evaluate the role of the Devil in the Crucifixion and the role of those three verses where Peter's words tempt Jesus we must not exclude other passages dealing with the role of the Devil in the crucifixion.

For example:


Luke 22:42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done.”

It was Jesus' will that the cup pass. This is understandable. BUT was Jesus' will the same as the Devil's will?

Then we have the most complete description of the Devil's role in the Crucifixion (found in Acts 2):


"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “


If we exclude what God has to say about the role of the Devil in the crucifixion and rely on three verses where Peter's words were a temptation to Christ then we cannot walk away with any biblical understanding.