Matthew 16:21-23 and Satan's Role in the Crucifixion of Jesus

[JonC]

@Scripture More Accurately ,

I am not trying to force a discussion about Scripture. I am simply asking a question (a yes or no question). Given the passage, I do not see a need for a discussion.

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “


Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil?

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus' teaching in Matthew 16:21-23 shows that Satan influenced Peter

'Satan' does not necessarily mean 'the devil', which in this case it does not, it means opponent, or adversary, which Peter was acting as, just as anyone who loved Jesus would have opposed Him getting Himself killed.

I like Edersheim's thoughts here:

"...there was enough of terrible realism in the words of Jesus to alarm Peter. His very affection, intensely human, to the Human Personality of his Master would lead him astray. That He, Whom he verily believed to be the Messiah, Whom he loved with all the intenseness of such an intense nature - that he should pass through such an ordeal - No! Never! He put it in the very strongest language, although the Evangelist gives only a literal translation of the Rabbinic expression3674 - God forbid it, ‘God be merciful to Thee:’3675 no, such never could, nor should be to the Christ! It was an appeal to the Human in Christ, just as Satan had, in the great Temptation after the forty days’ fast, appealed to the purely Human in Jesus. Temptations these, with which we cannot reason, but which we must put behind us as behind, or else they will be a stumbling-block before us; temptations, which come to us often through the love and care of others, Satan transforming himself into an Angel of light; temptations, all the more dangerous, that they appeal to the purely human, not the sinful, element in us, but which arise from the circumstance, that they who so become our stumbling-block, so long as they are before us, are prompted by an affection which has regard to the purely human, and, in its one-sided human intenseness, minds the things of man, and not those of God.

Yet Peter’s words were to be made useful, by affording to the Master the opportunity of correcting what was amiss in the hearts of all His disciples, and teaching them such general principles about His Kingdom, and about that implied in true discipleship, as would, if received in the heart, enable them in due time victoriously to bear those trials connected with that rejection and Death of the Christ, which at the time they could not understand. Not a Messianic Kingdom, with glory to its heralds and chieftains - but self-denial, and the voluntary bearing of that cross on which the powers of this world would nail the followers of Christ...."

 

[JonC]

I like Edersheim's thoughts here:

"...there was enough of terrible realism in the words of Jesus to alarm Peter. His very affection, intensely human, to the Human Personality of his Master would lead him astray. That He, Whom he verily believed to be the Messiah, Whom he loved with all the intenseness of such an intense nature - that he should pass through such an ordeal - No! Never! He put it in the very strongest language, although the Evangelist gives only a literal translation of the Rabbinic expression3674 - God forbid it, ‘God be merciful to Thee:’3675 no, such never could, nor should be to the Christ! It was an appeal to the Human in Christ, just as Satan had, in the great Temptation after the forty days’ fast, appealed to the purely Human in Jesus. Temptations these, with which we cannot reason, but which we must put behind us as behind, or else they will be a stumbling-block before us; temptations, which come to us often through the love and care of others, Satan transforming himself into an Angel of light; temptations, all the more dangerous, that they appeal to the purely human, not the sinful, element in us, but which arise from the circumstance, that they who so become our stumbling-block, so long as they are before us, are prompted by an affection which has regard to the purely human, and, in its one-sided human intenseness, minds the things of man, and not those of God.

Yet Peter’s words were to be made useful, by affording to the Master the opportunity of correcting what was amiss in the hearts of all His disciples, and teaching them such general principles about His Kingdom, and about that implied in true discipleship, as would, if received in the heart, enable them in due time victoriously to bear those trials connected with that rejection and Death of the Christ, which at the time they could not understand. Not a Messianic Kingdom, with glory to its heralds and chieftains - but self-denial, and the voluntary bearing of that cross on which the powers of this world would nail the followers of Christ...."

A more troubling aspect of how the Devil is being considered here is the next account of Jesus faced with the temptation, not from Peter but from His own will.

Luke 22:42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done.”

The way the OP elevates the Devil makes Jesus' will satanic.

Jesus prayed that the cup pass, but set aside that will of the flesh for the will of the Father. This does not mean Jesus was influenced by the Devil to want to avoid being beaten, humiliated and nailed to a cross. It does not mean that Peter was influenced by the Devil to want his Teacher and Friend to avoid that suffering and death.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I am leaving this thread and will not be participating any longer in it.

 

[kyredneck]

I am leaving this thread and will not be participating any longer in it.

...as I said:

...scratching my head wondering what prompted you to start this thread to begin with...

 

[kyredneck]

This does not mean Jesus was influenced by the Devil to want to avoid being beaten, humiliated and nailed to a cross.

I totally agree with your premise here, but not your take on the passage.

The 'cup' was not the cross, it was death itself.

Jesus prayed that the cup pass

His prayer(s) were answered, God saved Him from death, He raised Him from the dead. Hebrews 5:7

Jesus could have avoided the cross, but how then should the scriptures be fulfilled? Matthew 26:53-54

 

[JonC]

I totally agree with your premise here, but not your take on the passage.

The 'cup' was not the cross, it was death itself.



His prayer(s) were answered, God saved Him from death, He raised Him from the dead. Hebrews 5:7

Jesus could have avoided the cross, but how then should the scriptures be fulfilled? Matthew 26:53-54

I agree that the "cup" was death itself. And that He was delivered (through, not from) death.

 

[JonC]

I am leaving this thread and will not be participating any longer in it.

Yea....go figure.

For the members - he could not answer if John 8:37-46 were true.

If you are wondering the role the Devil played read Jesus' words in the passage:



John 8:37–46 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "

Then ask yourself:

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil, doing the desires of the Devil?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yea....go figure.

For the members - he could not answer if John 8:37-46 were true.

If you are wondering the role the Devil played read Jesus' words in the passage:



John 8:37–46 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "

Then ask yourself:

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil, doing the desires of the Devil?

you took over my thread, leaving me no choice but to withdraw from the thread.

 

[JonC]

False. Using your authority as moderator, you took over my thread, leaving me no choice but to withdraw from the thread.

No. I actually addressed the OP and posted a relevant passage dealing with the Devil and the crucifixion.


This is what I posted:

John 8:37–46 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?




We cannot snip three verses and put them in a different context as some proof while ignoring multiple passages that deal with the same question.


If somebody wants to know the Devil's role in the Crucifixion then they should read all of the passages dealing with the Devil's role.

You are having a temper tantrum because you cannot answer whether you agree with Scripture. Most here do not have that problem.

It is a very simple question....and it answers the OP:

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “


Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I would appreciate your not using this kind of unnecessarily antagonistic language ("organ grinder," "monkey") toward anyone in this thread. Such words do not serve any edifying purpose.

I did in fact delete the offending words almost as soon as I had written them. I apologize for messing up your thread.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hodge's second rule of interpretation:

2. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.

The 'reams of stuff I trotted out' was scripture that your cockamamie notion, that not only was Satan not involved but that he tried to stop the crucifixion, contradicted.

Scripture indeed cannot contradict Scripture, and I have never believed otherwise. I have replied elsewhere to your reams of stuff and see no reason to repeat myself, but I will if you really want. Trotting out masses of Scripture without giving your interpretation of it does not constitute an argument.

 

[JonC]

Scripture indeed cannot contradict Scripture, and I have never believed otherwise. I have replied elsewhere to your reams of stuff and see no reason to repeat myself, but I will if you really want. Trotting out masses of Scripture without giving your interpretation of it does not constitute an argument.

I have noticed that you often insist on interpretation of Scripture. Many times, however, Scripture means exactly what it states (interpretation is rarely needed for most of Scripture).

When you say "interpretation" what you really mean (probably without realizing it) is "something other than what is stated in the text".

Interpretation can vary. So can application. But we at least need to accept God's Word for what is stated in the text.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I did in fact delete the offending words almost as soon as I had written them. I apologize for messing up your thread.

Thanks for these remarks.

 

[kyredneck]

Trotting out masses of Scripture without giving your interpretation of it does not constitute an argument.

You mean like here? You should be bright enough to catch the gist of it, never mind that I 'interpreted' it for you in the first sentence.

Here? The devil crucified Christ through his proxies in this realm. I know you're bright enough to see it, you just lack the guts to admit it.

Here? The point here is if God ALONE crucified Christ why did He convict Satan's proxies of the crime? Again, that shouldn't need to be explained to you.

Show me Martin, posts of mine that you need interpreted and I will interpret them, just for lil' ol' you.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are having a temper tantrum because you cannot answer whether you agree with Scripture. Most here do not have that problem.

This is condescending nonsense.

Anyone else would not have persisted in forcing such a discussion.

Regardless, I have addressed that passage and discussion in the other thread. I am not going to do so in my own thread.

 

[Alan Gross]

...scratching my head wondering what prompted you to start this thread to begin with...

An epiphany operating under the guise of the "undeniable teaching of Jesus", that He spoke "explicitly", as "the truth", is my guess.

I get the epiphany myself, however, that all that backfired, in the Providence of God.

That just helps us understand that every epiphany people experience is not necessarily directly inspired, God-breathed, original Autograph material.

I think I'll copy that and start pasting it all over, as a reminder.

 

[JonC]

This is condescending nonsense.

Anyone else would not have persisted in forcing such a discussion.

Regardless, I have addressed that passage and discussion in the other thread. I am not going to do so in my own thread.

No it isn't.

Scripture interprets Scripture. Those three verses do not contradict other passages.

ALL of Scripture is true, whether you accept it or not.

What we need to ask when examining how Jesus' words to Peter reflect (if they reflect) the Devil's role in the crucifixion is what other passages directly addressing the Devil's role in the crucifixion state.

Otherwise you risk taking three verses about Peter making a statement that was a temptation to Jesus severely out of context.

So what do other passages state? @kyredneck gave you a lot of passages. I offered this:

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.”

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “

What does those passages indicate when it comes to the Devil?

How does this affect the way we interpret Jesus' words to Peter?

Do you believe that those men seeking to kill Jesus were doing the deeds of their father the Devil?

 

[JonC]

So what was the role of the Devil in the crucifixion?

Let's look at a few passages that have been offered:

Matthew 16:21–23 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Peter - or more precisely, Peter's words - served as a temptation to Jesus ("You are a stumbling block to Me"). Peter was setting his mind on man's interest rather than God's interest.

Luke 22:41–42 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

Jesus prayed that if the Father was willing the cup be removed. But Jesus submitted His will to the will of the Father.

We know that on some level Jesus and Peter had the same will - that Jesus not have to die. This is normal. This is human. But Jesus trusted the Father, knew the outcome, knew that He would be delivered through death because of God's righteousness (Psalm 22).

So these verses are not adequate to examine the actual role of the Devil in the crucifixion.


There are passages, however, that directly related to the role of the Devil in the crucifixion.

John 8:37–46 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?"


The role of the Devil was lies and murder. The men who sought to kill Jesus were children of the Devil, listening to the lies of the Devil, seeking to kill Jesus as this was doing the deeds of the Devil, and doing the desires of their father the Devil.

When we look at the crucifixion we can see the Devil in the lies men believed. They esteemed Him as stricken by God. They considered Him as a blasphemer. They viewed Him as alienated from God.

Acts 2:22–24 Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. "

So these men, doing the deeds of the Devil, nailed Jesus to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

But this was the predetermined plan of God and God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

 

[kyredneck]

But Jesus trusted the Father, knew the outcome, knew that He would be delivered through death because of God's righteousness (Psalm 22).

Spot on.

23 who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pe 2

Satan's proxies illegally, wickedly, judged Him worthy of death, but God annulled it. He raised Him from the dead.

Illegalities of Jesus' trial