Matthew 18:21-22

[franklinmonroe]

Yeah, except ἑπτάκις is NOT the word used. The word used is ἑπτά. That is why I pointed out it is undefined numerical adjective. And please, throw away your Strongs. No one but a complete neophyte would use it.

Please, forgive me for being unclear; I was referring to the first occurrence of the Greek word rendered "seven times" in Matthew 18:22. I attempting to use it as comparitive to the Greek word translated "seventy times". The point being that there is no directly corresponding Greek word here for "times". Yes, the second occurrence of "seven" in the verse is hepta.

I am looking at the top of page 74 of my Greek & English Interlinear (2008 Zondervan, W. Mounce and R. Mounce, editors) where the Greek word is heptakis in Matthew 18:21 and verse 22 and identified as #2232 [Goodrick-Kohlenberger].

I don't actually own a Strong's, I just used it because it was a handy online source. Admittedly, I am a complete neophyte. I appreciate your patience.

 

[franklinmonroe]

Allow me to try to pull this all together.

In my experience many, many English readers have accepted the words "seventy times seven" as a literal mathematical expression while at the same time understanding it has hyperbolic purpose. It is perfectly natural for modern English readers to think in terms of multiplication when they see the word "times" between two numbers. It makes sense to us; but it shouldn't.

And I think we all have heard intelligent pastors and sound Sunday School teachers expound upon the text "seventy times seven" by first trotting out the math formula 70 x 7 = 490 before moving on into the deeper spiritual meaning of unlimited or infinite forgiveness. It seems right to us; but it isn't.

The problem is that the word "times" does not mean multiply here. In fact, the word "times" is never meant as a mathematical operator in the entire New Testament. "Times" simply means something like instances, cases, or occurrences. Jesus is made to equivocate in English when He is misunderstood to say "seven times" (with the meaning of occurrences) followed by "seventy times seven" (with the meaning of multiplied).

A reader does not need to know any Greek to unravel this problem. When Matthew 18:22 is read with proper comprehension "seventy times seven" is actually incomplete and vague in English. Substituting another word for "times" sharpens this ambiguity: "seventy instances seven" or "seventy occurrences seven" sounds very odd in English. We wouldn't know quite what to think about it. TCassidy has confirmed that this is not a mathematical equation but an idiomatic expression. So, it should sound strange to us.

Additionally, there just is no direct support in the Greek for the word "times" (despite that the two words "seventy times" is a legitimate translation of that one Greek word). The last two Greek words in the verse refer to "70-something" and "7" without any math function present. Thus the reason some other versions have arrived at something like "seventy seven times". Although it avoids the appearance of multiplication it is guilty of virtual addition. Not better.

So, although the translation in the KJV (and many other versions) of "seventy times seven" is accurate of itself, it is also confusing and misleading in this context. Perhaps a rendering of "seventy sevens" or "seven seventies" would be better.

 

[banana]

What about 77 times

 

[TCassidy]

What about 77 times

Seventy sevens is not 77 would be the main reason.

 

[John of Japan]

Oh, for Pete's sake, it's seventy times seven. There is no specific koine Greek word "times," it's a suffix -κις just like in this word. (For other examples, see Luke 17:24 and 2 Cor. 11:24.) And the main lexicons all agree that ἑβδομηκοντάκις should be translated "seventy times." (BAGD, Friberg, etc.; even Thayers)

As for a literal translation of 70 times 7, come on! Who even counts that high in times of forgiveness?? "Okay, so I've forgiven him 489 times, so after next time, in obedience to Jesus I can get bitter and unforgiving." Really??? So it may be translated literally and interpreted literally with no problem whatsoever in understanding the meaning of Christ.

So, move along, folks. There's no story here.

 

[Rippon]

So it may be translated literally and interpreted literally with no problem whatsoever in understanding the meaning of Christ.

It may be translated literally --but it has to be interpreted figuratively.

 

[franklinmonroe]

Oh, for Pete's sake, it's seventy times seven. There is no specific koine Greek word "times," it's a suffix -κις just like in this word. (For other examples, see Luke 17:24 and 2 Cor. 11:24.) And the main lexicons all agree that ἑβδομηκοντάκις should be translated "seventy times." (BAGD, Friberg, etc.; even Thayers)

As for a literal translation of 70 times 7, come on! Who even counts that high in times of forgiveness?? "Okay, so I've forgiven him 489 times, so after next time, in obedience to Jesus I can get bitter and unforgiving." Really??? So it may be translated literally and interpreted literally with no problem whatsoever in understanding the meaning of Christ.

So, move along, folks. There's no story here.

That there is no specific Greek word for "times" was covered. That ἑβδομηκοντάκις can be translated "seventy times" was also covered. The point was that the English word "times" does not mean multiply here; yet, it can be easily confused for multiply.

 

[John of Japan]

That there is no specific Greek word for "times" was covered. That ἑβδομηκοντάκις can be translated "seventy times" was also covered. The point was that the English word "times" does not mean multiply here; yet, it can be easily confused for multiply.

Not "can be translated 'seventy times'" but MUST be translated "seventy times." That's what it means, not what it might mean. And there is no difference in meaning between "70 times 7" and "multiply 70 by 7."

In post 14 you said:

There in lies the rub. The Greek does not actually say "seventy times", although that would often be a perfectly good rendering of the Greek word. However, in this context that two-word English translation has caused a lot of people to misunderstand what was actually recorded by the Holy Spirit.

But the Greek actually DOES say, "seventy times." At the least you are ambiguous, at the best you are mixed up about the Greek. (No offense. )

 

[franklinmonroe]

...But the Greek actually DOES say, "seventy times." At the least you are ambiguous, at the best you are mixed up about the Greek. (No offense. )

Not offended. I stated that "seventy times" was a perfectly good translation. But I also contend that the word "times" means occurrences or instances and never multiply in the whole English NT (KJV and others).

So, could you please explain why you insist that it MUST be translated only by the English word "times" and cannot be something like "occurrences" or "instances"?

You seem to eqaute the suffix -κις means multiply. Do you also think the first appearance in 18:22 of "seven times" (same suffix -κις) means "seven multiplied"? If so, "seven multiplied" by what other number? There is no other number. (Same for Peter's question in 18:21)

Not "can be translated 'seventy times'" but MUST be translated "seventy times." That's what it means, not what it might mean. And there is no difference in meaning between "70 times 7" and "multiply 70 by 7."...

There can be a difference:"70 multiplied by 7" specifies the mathematical operator, while "70 times" followed by "7" does not. It simply reads "70 times" then a "7" as in "70 occurrences, 7" or "70 instances - seven". I think you are proving my point that it is difficult to escape the idea of multiplication when presented with the word "times" between two numbers.

 

[John of Japan]

Not offended. I stated that "seventy times" was a perfectly good translation. But I also contend that the word "times" means occurrences or instances and never multiply in the whole English NT (KJV and others).

So, could you please explain why you insist that it MUST be translated only by the English word "times" and cannot be something like "occurrences" or "instances"?

The phrase "occurrences of sevens" is not correct because "groups of sevens" is not what Jesus had in view. The problem is not groups of seven apologies. The same is true for the rendering "instances."

From this verse I think it is obvious that the suffix actually as two meanings: occurrences and the multiplier.

You seem to eqaute the suffix -κις means multiply. Do you also think the first appearance in 18:22 of "seven times" (same suffix -κις) means "seven multiplied"? If so, "seven multiplied" by what other number? There is no other number. (Same for Peter's question in 18:21)
There can be a difference:"70 multiplied by 7" specifies the mathematical operator, while "70 times" followed by "7" does not. It simply reads "70 times" then a "7" as in "70 occurrences, 7" or "70 instances - seven". I think you are proving my point that it is difficult to escape the idea of multiplication when presented with the word "times" between two numbers.

You can consider it a multiplier or not, it doesn't really matter. Either way it works out to seven for the first seven and 490 after. "70 of 7s" is 490 and "70 times 7" is 490. The important thing about the passage, though, is that Jesus is using hyperbole, not the exact number. In order to get His exact hyperbole into the target language, "70 times 7" is the necessary rendering. You could do "Seventy times of 7," but that would be awkward.