Matthew 24, 25 - Not to Christians??

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24-25 NOT to Christians?

The hoops you dispys have to jump through to make since out of scripture is remarkable!

Dispensationalism = Giant waste of time, paper and money

___________________________________________________________

Hi go2church,

Back in July you wrote that you must "rethink your viewpoint on the
identity of the Two Witnesses after reading my post on their being
Elijah and John the Apostle"! I have wondered since what you think!!
Now you express puzzlement at Ed's dispensationalistic hermeneutic!!!

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"IMHO it is primarily for Jews. However, Christians may see what God has planned for the Jews and rejoice that a time is coming when all living Jews will be saved".
_____________________________________________________________

What strikes me as very imperceptive is that Ed's response throws out a
question after agreeing with me that only the plight of the Jews is the focus of Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse recorded in Matthew 24!
My point is Luke 21:25-36 does NOT reflect the attitude of any Believer in our expectation of the TIME of Christ's return since the "Day" of the Lord
will NOT overtake a single one of us "as a thief"!! Jesus relates its surprise
entirely to Unbelievers who will thing they are "safe and secure"!!!

I'm sure you noticee what is so imperceptive about Ed's following question after agreeing with me that Jews are the focus of Christ's remarks; but ONLY in Luke's account! Here is what he states in response to my view:
_____________________________________________________________
My View:
//"The Jews who suddenly realize (know) their "kingdom is near", as of the second coming of Christ (Luke 21:31), are not dependent upon having kept the requirement laid out in Matt.25! For Jews are instructed to
"pray to escape all the things happening and to prevail to stand before
the Son of Man"!! There is no prior knowledge given to the sheep of the inheritance in Matt.25 because they learn (are surprised), after the fact, that they had inherited the eternal kingdom on the earth"!!!//

Ed's Reactive:
"This was so far off base that I couldn't really recognize what you are
talking about or whom you are quoting...But it appears to me perchance these aren't a quote from the Bible, at least not the KJV1769 Edition,
KJV1611 Edition, or the Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition".
_____________________________________________________________
Ed continues:
"Then, my friend, note what follows: "Reminds me a bit of this verse:
Luke 21:36 (KJV1611 Edition): Watch ye therefore, and pray alwayes, that ye may be accompted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to passe, and to stand before the sonne of man.

But is the Book of Luke for Jews only? I read it as as being for the chruch age saint (Christian) as well as the Jewish/Israeli Saint".
_____________________________________________________________

go2church:

Do you see the Imperception? The Inconsistency?? The Contradiction???

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[go2church]

Hi go2church,

Back in July you wrote that you must "rethink your viewpoint on the
identity of the Two Witnesses after reading my post on their being
Elijah and John the Apostle"! I have wondered since what you think!!
Now you express puzzlement at Ed's dispensationalistic hermeneutic!!!


This what I wrote:

"After reading your posts I think I am going to have rethink my belief that the two witnesses are Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble"

an obvious attempt at a joke...I'm not sure what you're getting at?

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Matthew 24 is written to the Jews prior to the second Advent of Christ. At His second coming, those "taken" (Mat. 24:40-41) are taken in judgment (see verses 37-39). Those left will go into the Kingdom alive to live the next 1000 years under the Theonomy of Jesus Christ.

 

[Mel Miller]

Matthew 24-25 Not to Christians?

Hi go2church,

Back in July you wrote that you must "rethink your viewpoint on the
identity of the Two Witnesses after reading my post on their being
Elijah and John the Apostle"! I have wondered since what you think!!
Now you express puzzlement at Ed's dispensationalistic hermeneutic!!!
Your response:
"This is what I wrote:

`After reading your posts I think I am going to have to rethink my
belief that the two witnesses are Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble'"
...an obvious attempt at a joke...I'm not sure what you're getting at?

___________________________________________________________

Hi again,

I was not being critical of you! However, in pointing out that another
writer makes "no sense", (as in the case of Ed Edwards) or making a
joke about Biblical truth (as the identity of the Witnesses), I seek to
show WHY his writings are impercipient, inconsistent, contradictory!!
Ed rejects the existence of Christians during the great tribulation; yet
tries to take our "expectation" of Christ's coming, according to signs,
and apply them only to the Jews during the great tribulation!!!

Ed affirms Trib-Saints will not include any Gentiles; that Christians will not even be here to look for signs! Yet he believes the Jews will have advance knowledge of what to expect during the great tribulation when Paul and Luke and Revelation reveal they continue to be blinded as a nation until Christ appears in glory!! Ed's imperception arises by failing to see that Trib-Saints "come out of every nation and people and tongue during the great tribualtion" and that "fulness of the Gentiles" awaits
the End of Gentile Times ... not the End of his Pre-Trib-Church-Age!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: // ... that "fulness of the Gentiles" awaits
the End of Gentile Times ... not the End of his Pre-Trib-Church-Age!!!//

Uh, er, well the End of Gentile Times = the End
of Pre-Trib-Church-Age!! The 'Gentile Time'
is the same as the 'Church Age'.

I think I'm beginning to see a problem.
Mel believes so strongly that there is one and only one "Second Coming" that
he will not let me define the two parts of the 'Second Coming of Jesus'.
BTW, the First Coming of Jesus was dual:
Jesus came from heaven to earth as the babe in the manger;
Jesus come from hell to earth in victory over death, hell, & the grave.

Mel Miller: //Ed affirms Trib-Saints will not include any Gentiles;
that Christians will not even be here to look for signs!//

Yes, the Tribulation is a 'show' for the Jews - designed to save a majority
of Jews living at the pretribulation rapture (and they aren't saved
at that time).

Mel Miller: //Yet he believes the Jews will have advance knowledge of what to expect
during the great tribulation when Paul and Luke and Revelation reveal they
continue to be blinded as a nation until Christ appears in glory!!//

Jesus appears in glory just as much when He comes to get the Church Age
born-again Chrisitian elect saints prior to the Tribualtion as He appears in
glory at the end of the Tribulation. But you won't let me use the Bible terms
to apply to the two appearings; not knowing the first thing about FIRST
in Revelation 20.

Can you at least agree there are two different functions
of the Coming of Christ? You can put them together at the
same millisecond, blink of an eye, or whatever timing you please.
The Bible clearly talks about two functions.

Here are the terms the Bible uses:

2 Thesalonians 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and
by our gathering together vnto him,


by our gathering together vnto him,
is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection

the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ
is the post-tribulation rapture/resurrection
Titus 2:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and
the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

that blessed hope,
is the pretribulation rapture/resurrection

tthe glorious appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,
is the post-tribulation rapture/resurrection

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24-25 Not to Christians?

Ed Edwards,

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
"Jesus appears in glory just as much when He comes to get the Church Age born-again Chrisitian elect saints prior to the Tribualtion as He appears in glory at the end of the Tribulation. But you won't let me use the Bible terms to apply to the two appearings; not knowing the first thing about FIRSTin Revelation 20".
____________________________________________________________

The reason you cannot "use Biblical terms to apply to two appearings" is
that you force Matt.24:31 to refer to a PRE-TRIB "gathering of the Elect
from earth to heaven" IN SPITE of Jesus' express statement that this is a
gathering during "POST days of great tribulation"! Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29.

Futhermore, you cannot "assume" the Elect of Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31
refer to Jews saved during the Tribulation after claiming the Elect are
"gathered together above" (episunago) BEFORE the Tribulation"!!

These two assumptions are totally contradictory!!!

Futher Quote from Ed:
____________________________________________________________
"Can you at least agree to two different functions of Christ's Coming"?
____________________________________________________________

There are more than two functions! There are actually two functions in His "gathering of the elect from the earth and in His sending of the angels
to complete the gathering while earth's tribes "mourn and continuously
beg to escape His wrath and prevail to stand before the Son of Man"!!
You quote Paul's reference to the "gathering together place...unto Jesus"
...the Synagogue in the Sky!!!

The only multi-functioning singular "appointed time" referenced in the Book of Revelation includes the RESURRECTION, REWARDS AND RETRIBUTION!
All three functions await the Coronation of Christ at the 7th Trumpet, the
immediate rejoicing in heaven, the climactic announcment that the Lamb's
Wedding has come, the opening of heaven for Christ to descend and to "destroy those who would destroy the earth" and the "blessing on millions left behind who will be invited as guests to the Wedding Supper"!!!

As to whether I do "not know the first thing about the FIRST Resurrection in Rev.20," how about admitting the reaping of the "sons of Satan will FIRST occur before the sons of God can be reaped at the END of the AGE Harvest"? Matt.13:30-42. Are you trying to tell me that 7 years separates
the FIRST Reaping from the FIRST Resurrection?? Why would the sons of
Satan be reaped 7 years before the Son of Man reaps the righteous???

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

MEl Miller: //As to whether I do "not know the first thing about the FIRST Resurrection in Rev.20," how about admitting the reaping of the "sons of Satan will FIRST occur before the sons of God can be reaped at the END of the AGE Harvest"? Matt.13:30-42.//

I won't admit that.
Matthew 13:30-42 is a parable streched way to far to beleive the
the unjust are harvested before the just (in Christ) are
gathered. When you harvest wheat, you take the
tares first, then the wheat. This order is NOT implied for
the taking of the just and unjust. Especially not when
Revelation 20 is clear:
First type of Resurreciton - the just (in Christ)
Second type of Resurection - the unjust
(seperated by 1,000 years of Christ reigning on earth)

---------------------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
---------------------------------------

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24-25 Not to Christians??

Ed Edwards,

I submit that you need to recognize the difference between reaping and
resurrection...as well as the fact that the End of the Age includes both! You include the "reaping of the tares" in Matt.13:30; but omit "reaping of the sons of the kingdom" in Matt.13:38!! Then assume the reapings are separated by 1000 years rather than an HOUR at the End of this Age!!!

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
MEl Miller: //As to whether I do "not know the first thing about the FIRST Resurrection in Rev.20," how about admitting the reaping of the "sons of Satan will FIRST occur before the sons of God can be reaped at the END of the AGE Harvest"? Matt.13:30-42.//
ED:
"I won't admit that.
Matthew 13:30-42 is a parable streched way too far to beleive the unjust are harvested before the just are gathered. When you harvest wheat, you take the tares first, then the wheat. This order is NOT implied for the taking of the just and unjust. Especially not when Revelation 20 is clear: First type of Resurreciton - the just (in Christ) Second type of Resurection - the unjust (seperated by 1,000 years of Christ reigning on earth)".
____________________________________________________________

Ed, you have fallen into the view held by Amils that the "two HOURS" for
resurrecting the dead equates to the two "reapings" of Matt.13 and that one of these two reapings equates to the "resurrection" after 1000 years! Jesus is not denying a separate resurrection of unbelievers at the HOUR of the "second death"!! But you must stick to His revelation of two reapings occurring on the last day when He will "reap the wicked to the winepress in great anger" at an HOUR or so before "He raises and gathers the Elect from earth to heaven"!!! Rev.14:14-19; Mark 13:24-27.

On the matter of Resurrecting the Elect, which is separated by an HOUR or so from "reaping" the wicked into the Winepress, Jesus is absolute in His inclusivism! He will "raise up ALL believers (raise as well as gather; not just Elect Jews; but ALL Believers) ON THE LAST DAY"!! Perhaps you will never accept the "word of the Lord" to which Paul refers for bringing "ALL the Saints with Him"; the one event at the End of the Age for His "gathering together above of ALL the Saints whom He raises up after "FIRST reaping the wicked to the Winepress and shortly thereafter destroying them all"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net




____________________________________________________________

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24-25 Not to Christians??

Ed Edwards,

I submit that you need to recognize the difference between reaping and
resurrection...as well as the fact that the End of the Age includes both! You include the "reaping of the tares" in Matt.13:30; but omit "reaping of the sons of the kingdom" in Matt.13:38!! Then assume the reapings are separated by 1000 years rather than an HOUR at the End of this Age!!!

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
MEl Miller: //As to whether I do "not know the first thing about the FIRST Resurrection in Rev.20," how about admitting the reaping of the "sons of Satan will FIRST occur before the sons of God can be reaped at the END of the AGE Harvest"? Matt.13:30-42.//
ED:
"I won't admit that.
Matthew 13:30-42 is a parable streched way too far to beleive the unjust are harvested before the just are gathered. When you harvest wheat, you take the tares first, then the wheat. This order is NOT implied for the taking of the just and unjust. Especially not when Revelation 20 is clear: First type of Resurreciton - the just (in Christ) Second type of Resurection - the unjust (seperated by 1,000 years of Christ reigning on earth)".
____________________________________________________________

Ed, you have fallen into the view held by Amils that the "two HOURS" for
resurrecting the dead equates to the two "reapings" of Matt.13 and that one of these two reapings equates to the "resurrection" after 1000 years! Jesus is not denying a separate resurrection of unbelievers at the HOUR of the "second death"!! But you must stick to His revelation of two reapings occurring on the last day when He will "reap the wicked to the winepress in great anger" at an HOUR or so before "He raises and gathers the Elect from earth to heaven"!!! Rev.14:14-19; Mark 13:24-27.

On the matter of Resurrecting the Elect, which is separated by an HOUR or so from "reaping" the wicked into the Winepress, Jesus is absolute in His inclusivism! He will "raise up ALL believers (raise as well as gather; not just Elect Jews; but ALL Believers) ON THE LAST DAY"!! Perhaps you will never accept the "word of the Lord" to which Paul refers for bringing "ALL the Saints with Him"; the one event at the End of the Age for His "gathering together above of ALL the Saints whom He raises up after "FIRST reaping the wicked to the Winepress and shortly thereafter destroying them all"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net




____________________________________________________________

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24-25 Not to Christians??

Ed Edwards,

I submit that you need to recognize the difference between reaping and
resurrection...as well as the fact that the End of the Age includes both! You include the "reaping of the tares" in Matt.13:30; but omit "reaping of the sons of the kingdom" in Matt.13:38!! Then assume the reapings are separated by 1000 years rather than an HOUR at the End of this Age!!!

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
MEl Miller: //As to whether I do "not know the first thing about the FIRST Resurrection in Rev.20," how about admitting the reaping of the "sons of Satan will FIRST occur before the sons of God can be reaped at the END of the AGE Harvest"? Matt.13:30-42.//
ED:
"I won't admit that.
Matthew 13:30-42 is a parable streched way too far to beleive the unjust are harvested before the just are gathered. When you harvest wheat, you take the tares first, then the wheat. This order is NOT implied for the taking of the just and unjust. Especially not when Revelation 20 is clear: First type of Resurreciton - the just (in Christ) Second type of Resurection - the unjust (seperated by 1,000 years of Christ reigning on earth)".
____________________________________________________________

Ed, you have fallen into the view held by Amils that the "two HOURS" for
resurrecting the dead equates to the two "reapings" of Matt.13 and that one of these two reapings equates to the "resurrection" after 1000 years! Jesus is not denying a separate resurrection of unbelievers at the HOUR of the "second death"!! But you must stick to His revelation of two reapings occurring on the last day when He will "reap the wicked to the winepress in great anger" at an HOUR or so before "He raises and gathers the Elect from earth to heaven"!!! Rev.14:14-19; Mark 13:24-27.

On the matter of Resurrecting the Elect, which is separated by an HOUR or so from "reaping" the wicked into the Winepress, Jesus is absolute in His inclusivism! He will "raise up ALL believers (raise as well as gather; not just Elect Jews; but ALL Believers) ON THE LAST DAY"!! Perhaps you will never accept the "word of the Lord" to which Paul refers for bringing "ALL the Saints with Him"; the one event at the End of the Age for His "gathering together above of ALL the Saints whom He raises up after "FIRST reaping the wicked to the Winepress and shortly thereafter destroying them all"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net




____________________________________________________________

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24-25 Not to Christians??

Ed Edwards,

I submit that you need to recognize the difference between reaping and
resurrection...as well as the fact that the End of the Age includes both! You include the "reaping of the tares" in Matt.13:30; but omit "reaping of the sons of the kingdom" in Matt.13:38!! Then assume the reapings are separated by 1000 years rather than an HOUR at the End of this Age!!!

Quote:
___________________________________________________________
MEl Miller: //As to whether I do "not know the first thing about the FIRST Resurrection in Rev.20," how about admitting the reaping of the "sons of Satan will FIRST occur before the sons of God can be reaped at the END of the AGE Harvest"? Matt.13:30-42.//
ED:
"I won't admit that.
Matthew 13:30-42 is a parable streched way too far to beleive the unjust are harvested before the just are gathered. When you harvest wheat, you take the tares first, then the wheat. This order is NOT implied for the taking of the just and unjust. Especially not when Revelation 20 is clear: First type of Resurreciton - the just (in Christ) Second type of Resurection - the unjust (seperated by 1,000 years of Christ reigning on earth)".
____________________________________________________________

Ed, you have fallen into the view held by Amils that the "two HOURS" for
resurrecting the dead equates to the two "reapings" of Matt.13 and that one of these two reapings equates to the "resurrection" after 1000 years! Jesus is not denying a separate resurrection of unbelievers at the HOUR of the "second death"!! But you must stick to His revelation of two reapings occurring on the last day when He will "reap the wicked to the winepress in great anger" at an HOUR or so before "He raises and gathers the Elect from earth to heaven"!!! Rev.14:14-19; Mark 13:24-27.

On the matter of Resurrecting the Elect, which is separated by an HOUR or so from "reaping" the wicked into the Winepress, Jesus is absolute in His inclusivism! He will "raise up ALL believers (raise as well as gather; not just Elect Jews; but ALL Believers) ON THE LAST DAY"!! Perhaps you will never accept the "word of the Lord" to which Paul refers for bringing "ALL the Saints with Him"; the one event at the End of the Age for His "gathering together above of ALL the Saints whom He raises up after "FIRST reaping the wicked to the Winepress and shortly thereafter destroying them all"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net




____________________________________________________________

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24-25 Not to Christians??

Friends,

What we have seen in this thread is the usual Pre-Trib assumptions that
Jesus didn't know what He was talking about when He stated the DAY of
His coming to gather the Elect from earth to heaven occurs "immediately
AFTER the Tribulation"!

Ed EDwards defiantly attributes Christ's lack of knowledge to His failure
to realize that, in sending angels to gather the Elect from all extremities
of the heavens in Matt.24:31, Jesus actually was describing the first of
two resurrections over a "7-Year Period" called the Day of the Lord!

This Dispensational approach to Last Day events assumes God will "Stop
the Clock" for building His Church and begin "re-gathering Israel to her
promised land"! That re-gathering began long ago and has nothing to do with a TIME-CLOCK of 7 Years that requires fulfillment of other specific signs before anyone can know the End is Near!! What is needed is to acknowledge Jesus' promise that He will "raise up and gather all of the Elect" (not just Jews) from their graves and/or from the surface of the earth to meet Him at the Synagogue in the Sky "on the DAY He comes in flaming fire to rescue every Believer, to destroy His enemies and to show God's mercy on all who mourn and beg to stand before the Son of Man"!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net