Matthew 24, 25 - Not to Christians??

[bound]

Question!!!

Where are the 'dead in Christ'?

Awake? Asleep? Shoal? Where?

Thanks and God Bless! :wavey:

 

[David Lamb]

Question!!!

Where are the 'dead in Christ'?

Awake? Asleep? Shoal? Where?

Thanks and God Bless! :wavey:

Their bodies are still here on earth. Their spirits go immediately into the presence of the Saviour. Jesus said to the repentant thief, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23.43. No mention of Sheol, or of being asleep.

Dying Stephen prayed: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7.59 Was he mistaken in his prayer?

And Paul wrote: 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labour; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Philippians 1.21-23.

Chapter 31 of the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) puts it like this:

I. The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them.[2] The souls of the righteous being then made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise, where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies;[3] and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgement of the great day;[4] besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

1. Gen. 3:19; Acts 13:36
2. Eccl. 12:7
3. Luke 23:43; II Cor. 5:1, 6, 8; Phil. 1:23, Heb. 12:23
4. Jude 1:6-7; I Peter 3:19; Luke 16:23-24

II. At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive, shall not sleep, but be changed;[5] and all the dead shall be raised up with the selfsame bodies, and none other;[6]although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls for ever.[7]

5. I Cor. 15:51-52; I Thess. 4:17
6. Job 19:26-27
7. I Cor. 15:42-43

III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.[8]

8. Acts 24:15; John 5:28-29; Phil. 3:21

A version in modern English, to be found online at: http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm has:

Chapter 31

THE STATE OF PEOPLE AFTER DEATH AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD​

31.1 After death the bodies of people return to dust and undergo decomposition,1 but their souls (which neither die nor sleep for they are immortal in essence) immediately return to God who gave them.2 The souls of the righteous are then made perfect in holiness, they are received into paradise where they are with Christ and look on the face of God in light and glory, and wait for the full redemption of their bodies.3 The souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved for judgement on the great day [of judgement].4 For souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges no other place than these two.

(1) Gen 2:17; 3:19; Act 13:36; Rom 5:12-21; 1Co 15:22
(2) Gen 2:7; Jas 2:26; Mat 10:28; Ecc 12:7
(3) Psa 23:6; 1Ki 8:27-49; Isa 63:15; 66:1; Luk 23:43; Act 1:9-11; 3:21; 2Co 5:6-8;12:2-4; Eph 4:10; Phi 1:21-23; Heb 1:3; 4:14-15; 6:20; 8:1; 9:24; 12:23; Rev 6:9-11; 14:13; 20:4-6
(4) Luk 16:22-26; Act 1:25; 1Pe 3:19; 2Pe 2:9

31.2 On the last day, those believers who are still alive will not die, but will be changed.1 All the dead will be raised up2 with their own bodies3 (although these will have different qualities)4 that will be united again to their souls for ever.5

(1) 1Co 15:50-53; 2Co 5:1-4; 1Th 4:17
(2) Dan 12:2; Joh 5:28-29; Act 24:15
(3) Job 19:26-27; Joh 5:28-29; 1Co 15:35-38,42-44
(4) 1Co 15:42-44,52-54
(5) Dan 12:2; Mat 25:46

31.3 By the power of Christ the bodies of the unrighteous will be raised to dishonour.1 By his Spirit2 the bodies of the righteous will be raised to honour,3 for they will be transformed to be like his own glorious body.4

(1) Dan 12:2, Joh 5:28-29
(2) Rom 8:1,11; 1Co 15:45; Gal 6:8
(3) 1Co 15:42-49
(4) Rom 8:17,29-30; 1Co 15:20-23,48-49; Phi 3:21; Col 1:18; 3:4; 1Jo 3:2; Rev 1:5

I hope this helps.

Every blessing,

 

[LeBuick]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother David Lamb -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Thank you for sharing that truth with us.
God will judge all (also each and every one) competent humans.

I note two types of judgement:
1. the judgement of the righteous (in Christ)
2. the judgements of the unrighteous

Here is a rerun of my essay on the general resurrections
of which I mention five. Again, if the who? where? how?
when? questions differ, that means a different resurrection.

(I've been writing this & rewriting it for about 12 years now.
You respectful comments are always welcome. As usual,
this is a debate board so un-respectful comments are
expected. thank you.)
-------------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.[/b]


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.
When will all the Old Testament saints be resurrected?

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just (in Christ): The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

Caveat: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
-------------------------------

 

[David Lamb]

(Part of your message)

Amen, Brother David Lamb -- Preach it! :thumbs:

Thank you for sharing that truth with us.
God will judge all (also each and every one) competent humans.

I note two types of judgement:
1. the judgement of the righteous (in Christ)
2. the judgements of the unrighteous

Here is a rerun of my essay on the general resurrections
of which I mention five. Again, if the who? where? how?
when? questions differ, that means a different resurrection.

(I've been writing this & rewriting it for about 12 years now.
You respectful comments are always welcome. As usual,
this is a debate board so un-respectful comments are
expected. thank you.)

I hope you didn't take any of my comments as disrespectful. I never intend to be so in my messages. (As you said that my comments are always welcome, I imagine you didn't find them disrespectful).

You say, Ed, that un-respectful comments are expected, but should they be, on a board for Christian believers? Yes, we'll disagree about all manner of things, whether it be translations of the bible, the "Doctrines of Grace", eschatology, or whatever, but should we not seek to do so in a respectful manner?

I haven't been on the Board very long, but most of the messages I have seen have seemed respectful.

Thanks again, and every blessing,

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24,25 not to Christians?

David Lamb,

The London Confession for Baptists does not seem to reference the
interrum place in Hades for lost souls between now and a "2nd death"!

"[3] and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgement of the great day;[4] besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none".
____________________________________________________________

If you believe in the Millennial reign of Believers on earth while the lost
"souls" remain in Hades, how does #4 square up with "Hades being cast
into Hell (along with lost-resurrected bodies) at the end of 1000 years?

Also, would you please expound on Matt.25:31-32 as it relates to this
same Millennial period. Part of the thread asks if Matt. 25 is written to
Christians. The usual explanation is that Christ will "separate the sheep
from the goat nations" at the START of His Millennial Reign.

If you agree with the timing for the separation, how do you square the
condition for the sheep to "inherit the kingdom on earth FOREVER" with
the condition of FAITH alone for Christians to inherit the New Jerusalem
in heaven? Sheep Nations dwell on the present Earth as I see it ... and
only at the END of the Millennial Reign do they "inherit the New Earth".

I will appreciate your reply specially since most Baptists here think the
Goat Nations will be sent to Hell at the start of the Millennium based on their treatment of the "least of Jesus' brothers". Salvation is by FAITH alone. How could Goat Nations "inherit an earthly kingdom FOREVER" if
based on their treatment of those who do not depend on their works?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[David Lamb]

David Lamb,

The London Confession for Baptists does not seem to reference the
interrum place in Hades for lost souls between now and a "2nd death"!

"3] and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgement of the great day;[4] besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none".
____________________________________________________________

If you believe in the Millennial reign of Believers on earth while the lost
"souls" remain in Hades, how does #4 square up with "Hades being cast
into Hell (along with lost-resurrected bodies) at the end of 1000 years?

Also, would you please expound on Matt.25:31-32 as it relates to this
same Millennial period. Part of the thread asks if Matt. 25 is written to
Christians. The usual explanation is that Christ will "separate the sheep
from the goat nations" at the START of His Millennial Reign.

If you agree with the timing for the separation, how do you square the condition for the sheep to "inherit the kingdom on earth FOREVER" with the condition of FAITH alone for Christians to inherit the New Jerusalem in heaven? Sheep Nations dwell on the present Earth as I see it ... and only at the END of the Millennial Reign do they "inherit the New Earth".

I will appreciate your reply specially since most Baptists here think the
Goat Nations will be sent to Hell at the start of the Millennium based on their treatment of the "least of Jesus' brothers". Salvation is by FAITH alone. How could Goat Nations "inherit an earthly kingdom FOREVER" if based on their treatment of those who do not depend on their works?

Mel Miller

Hello Mel,

I'm not quite sure where to start on this. (I am certainly no expert). Perhaps a good place would be to state something which I am sure you already know, that among genuine Christians, there exists a variety of interpretations as to "The Last Times" or eschatology. There are those with postmillenial views, who hold that Jesus Christ will return after the Millenium. The premillenial view sees Christ as returning before the Millenium. Then there is the so-called amillienial view. I say "so-called" because it is a mis-nomer; it seems as if it should mean "lack of belief in a millenium", just as an atheist is someone who does not believe in God. But in fact the amillenial view is that the thousand years are symbolic of the time between the first and second comings of Christ, not a disbelief in any kind of millenium.

I believe the third of these (though I would not want to fall out with Christians who interpret prophecy in a different way). That means that the "ifs" in your message ("If you believe in the Millennial reign of Believers on earth"; "If you agree with the timing for the separation,") are not true of me.

Among Reformed Baptists in the UK (that is, those with statements of faith similar to the 1689 London Confession), I think that amillenialism is the most widespread view.

I have not come across the terms "Goat Nations" and "Sheep Nations" before. When Christ talks of dividing the sheep from the goats, is He not referring to individual sheep, and individual goats? I know that the passage says that the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them, but are you saying that means that whether we go to heaven or to hell depends on our nationality? Does it not rather mean that He will separate individual people from the nations gathered before Him? I suppoose it would be similar to the instruction in a cake recipe, "Separate 3 eggs." We'd end up with a strange cake indeed if we took that to mean, "put two eggs here, and one egg there." Rather, we crack each egg, and carefully separate the yolk from the white.

Can you help me out? I can't find any scripture reference to the sheep "inheritting the kingdom on earth FOREVER", and what you call "goat kingdoms" "inheritting an earthly kingdom FOREVER"

We shall not come to a perfect agreement on "The Last Things" until they have actually happened, and then what glory it will be, if Jesus has saved us.

I remember hearing a casette of Henry Morris speaking at the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London (the church of which Spurgeon was once Pastor). After saying how privileged he felt to be be standing where the prince of preachers once stood, he continued something like this: "I know there are differences of eschatology among us, but of one thing we can all be certain - we are nearer the Last Day now than anyone has ever been before."

I know my answer to your questions is very inadequate, and for that I apologise.

Every blessing,

 

[Mel Miller]

Is Matthew 25 for Christians?

Dear David,

On our side of the Atlantic the Presbyterians are likely to be Amillennialists (Amils).
Baptists are more likely to have left the Reformist view of the Endtime and adopted
Dispensational Doctrines brought to us from England by John Darby in the 1800s. As
part of his teaching the Millennial views of very early Church Fathers (and Spurgeon)
were revived. That teaching sees the Sheep Nations of Matt.25 inheriting the earthly
kingdom during the post S.C. of Christ; but prior to the creation of the New H and E.

I take exception to this view for multiple reasons. One: Jesus says He will separate the
“nations”; not individuals. Before the SC the eternal state of Believers will already be
settled on an individual basis of Faith. Those who are not of Faith may be “kept alive”
only on condition they “are willing to die (Luke 17:33) and keep begging (Greek text)
to escape all the things that happenS on the Day Christ appears (Luke 21:25-36) and
to prevail (not be worthy; Greek) to stand before the Son of Man”. This term alone is
enough to indicate a reference to Jews being the Tribes of Earth who “mourn” when
they see “THE SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven” about to come with all the Saints.

Two: While the Martyrs, who appear in the Temple of Heaven to praise God and the
Lamb for the first time, must “serve God in that Temple for 1000 years” before it no
longer may be called a Temple (Rev.21:22), the nations “left behind” (Zech.14:16-21)
must come annually to worship God while Israel leads them. Zech.8:20-23. While we
“Reign with Christ on earth over these nations” (Rev.2:26), Martyrs will be “serving
God in heaven for 1000 years”; rewarded as per Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6.

Three: The judgment at the “2nd death,” while not a judgment of nations, alone stands
as the time when the Temple in heaven will no longer exist after a testing time of 1000
years allows the buildup of nations that either “inherit the eternal kingdom on earth” or
are the “nations that come against the Saints at Jerusalem and are cast into Hell”. Only
the Beast and False Prophet will be in Hell during the 1000-Year interim. Rev.20:8-10.

Four: The New Covenant, IMO, includes fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant as it
relates to the “nations” descending from the loins of Abraham through the 12 Tribes of
Ishmael. That Covenant requires an “eternal kingdom on earth”. When God confirmed
His promise to Abraham a year before Isaac was born and sealed it (in regard to Ishmael
by his circumcision immediately thereupon at age 13), the eternal aspect of Covenant
blessing for the “rest of his natural seed” waited to be fulfilled until God “concludes
Jews and Gentiles in a state of rebellion” against His Revelation in Christ. Rom.11:32-33.

Five: God designed that the New Jerusalem be “inhabited forever” by the Bride of the
Lamb which includes all the Saints from Adam to the 144,000 Jews who will be the
“Firstfruit unto both God and the Lamb; redeemed from earth, from among men” and
taken to heaven on the very Day the Lamb rescues them from Mt. Zion shortly after
“the sun turns dark, the whole moon to blood and the stars begin to fall from heaven”.
Those of the “nations left behind” can only hope to inherit the kingdom on earth after
they “worship God and treat the brothers of Jesus as they should treat Him”. Mt.25:40.

Six: During the Millennium as well as eternity, nations must not only come to Jerusalem
(and New Jerusalem) to worship God but also be “healed by the leaves of the tree of life”. Ezek.47:12; Rev.22:2. “Saved NATIONS (KJV) shall walk in the light of the New Jerusalem
and their kings shall bring the glory and honor of NATIONS into it day/night”.
Rev.20:24-26. This requirement will continue forever to be “blessed” by the 7th of seven “blessings” in Revelation. “The leaves of the Tree of Life are for healing the NATIONS. Blessed are those doing the commandments of Jesus; that they may have right to the
Tree of Life and may enter in through the gates into the (heavenly) City”. Rev.22:2,14.

Seven: The separation of Sheep and Goat Nations must wait until the End of 1000 years!
By viewing Christ’s “sitting on His Throne” in Matt.25:31 simply from the viewpoint of
God’s reckoning of “Time” can we begin to understand what Peter meant by 1000 years
being “like a single Day to God”!! 2 Pet.3:8-10. Dispensationalism went astray when it
Determined the “Day of the Lord” is equivalent to the Endtime of Daniel’s 70th Seven, i.e., “3½ times plus 3½ times”!!!

[This determination became the flawed basis for putting the Rapture in the Chart of the
Revelation before the Seals rather than at the 7th Trumpet’s “appointed (kairos) time” for Resurrection and Rewards “to judge and reward the prophets and saints and all who fear God” AND for Retribution on all those “destroying the earth”]. Rev.11:18; 2 Thess.1:7-10.

David, I will again appreciate your kind response.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[David Lamb]

David, I will again appreciate your kind response.

I am just wondering if there is anyone on the Board more qualified to answer Mel from an amillenial point of view. There is so much detail in Mel's message (that's not a criticism, by the way) that I am not sure how to answer, because I am coming from a different eschatalogical standpoint, and that affects the whole picture, not just the details.

I came across the following words which I found helpful, in the book "Foundations of the Christian Faith" by James Montgomery Boice (published by InterVarsity Press):

"When we speak of certainty we must acknowledge that Christians are not in full agreement about the details of these future events. They disagree about the millennium, a period of one thousand years during which Jesus is to reign upon earth; some see this as a specific future period, some as symbolic of the age of the church in which we are now living. Even among those who accept the millennium as a specific future period there are differences as to where it fits in with other events. How do the millennium and the return of Christ relate to the period of great tribulation spoken of in Daniel 9:27 and other texts, assuming that these do in fact speak of a specific tribulation period? What about the role of Israel in prophetic events? Armageddon? Antichrist? The diversity among evangelicals in handling these themes may be readily seen by comparing the final sections of most books of theology

What tends to be lost in the awareness of such differences, however, is the large agreement that exists, plus the fact that the areas in which Christians are agreed (at least all evangelical Christians) are the most important. Regardless of the way the millennium, the great tribulation, and other problems of prophecy are handled, most writers focus on the return of Christ, the resurrection of the body, and the final judgment as the essential and dominant elements of eschatology. Wherever the other events fit in (assuming there are other events), they at least have to fit in around those more important elements."

I am certain that whatever our eschatology, we all look forward eagerly to that day when "God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21.4

Yours in Christ Jesus,

 

[Jarthur001]

Their bodies are still here on earth. Their spirits go immediately into the presence of the Saviour. Jesus said to the repentant thief, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23.43. No mention of Sheol, or of being asleep.

Dying Stephen prayed: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7.59 Was he mistaken in his prayer?

And Paul wrote: 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labour; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Philippians 1.21-23.

Chapter 31 of the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) puts it like this:

I. The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them.[2] The souls of the righteous being then made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise, where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies;[3] and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgement of the great day;[4] besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

1. Gen. 3:19; Acts 13:36
2. Eccl. 12:7
3. Luke 23:43; II Cor. 5:1, 6, 8; Phil. 1:23, Heb. 12:23
4. Jude 1:6-7; I Peter 3:19; Luke 16:23-24

II. At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive, shall not sleep, but be changed;[5] and all the dead shall be raised up with the selfsame bodies, and none other;[6]although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls for ever.[7]

5. I Cor. 15:51-52; I Thess. 4:17
6. Job 19:26-27
7. I Cor. 15:42-43

III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.[8]

8. Acts 24:15; John 5:28-29; Phil. 3:21

A version in modern English, to be found online at: http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm has:

Chapter 31

THE STATE OF PEOPLE AFTER DEATH AND THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD​

31.1 After death the bodies of people return to dust and undergo decomposition,1 but their souls (which neither die nor sleep for they are immortal in essence) immediately return to God who gave them.2 The souls of the righteous are then made perfect in holiness, they are received into paradise where they are with Christ and look on the face of God in light and glory, and wait for the full redemption of their bodies.3 The souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved for judgement on the great day [of judgement].4 For souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges no other place than these two.

(1) Gen 2:17; 3:19; Act 13:36; Rom 5:12-21; 1Co 15:22
(2) Gen 2:7; Jas 2:26; Mat 10:28; Ecc 12:7
(3) Psa 23:6; 1Ki 8:27-49; Isa 63:15; 66:1; Luk 23:43; Act 1:9-11; 3:21; 2Co 5:6-8;12:2-4; Eph 4:10; Phi 1:21-23; Heb 1:3; 4:14-15; 6:20; 8:1; 9:24; 12:23; Rev 6:9-11; 14:13; 20:4-6
(4) Luk 16:22-26; Act 1:25; 1Pe 3:19; 2Pe 2:9

31.2 On the last day, those believers who are still alive will not die, but will be changed.1 All the dead will be raised up2 with their own bodies3 (although these will have different qualities)4 that will be united again to their souls for ever.5

(1) 1Co 15:50-53; 2Co 5:1-4; 1Th 4:17
(2) Dan 12:2; Joh 5:28-29; Act 24:15
(3) Job 19:26-27; Joh 5:28-29; 1Co 15:35-38,42-44
(4) 1Co 15:42-44,52-54
(5) Dan 12:2; Mat 25:46

31.3 By the power of Christ the bodies of the unrighteous will be raised to dishonour.1 By his Spirit2 the bodies of the righteous will be raised to honour,3 for they will be transformed to be like his own glorious body.4

(1) Dan 12:2, Joh 5:28-29
(2) Rom 8:1,11; 1Co 15:45; Gal 6:8
(3) 1Co 15:42-49
(4) Rom 8:17,29-30; 1Co 15:20-23,48-49; Phi 3:21; Col 1:18; 3:4; 1Jo 3:2; Rev 1:5

I hope this helps.

Every blessing,

Hello,

One small passage we must deal with....

2 Cor 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Going by verses 3 and 4, we will ALWAYS have a body.

 

[Jarthur001]

I came across the following words which I found helpful, in the book "Foundations of the Christian Faith" by James Montgomery Boice (published by InterVarsity Press):

Great set of books...which now comes in one Great book. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.24,25 Not for Christians?

David and Jarthur001,

Quote:
______________________________________________________________
"I am certain that whatever our eschatology, we all look forward eagerly to that day when "God shall wipe away all tears from our eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21.4
______________________________________________________________
The Martyrs will experience the above for 1000 years PRIOR to the New
Heaven and Earth. Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-6.

The problem with Amil doctrine is that it does not recognize the separate
existence of the souls of the wicked being kept in Hades during the 1000
years when the Martyrs "serve God in heaven" and while the Temple of the New Jerusalem continues to exist in the third heaven; for there will be no Temple in the New Jerusalem when it comes down from heaven and during the eternal state. Rev.21:22.

The reward to the Martyrs begins at the "first resurrection" and continues
until the "second death". Only at the second death, after the 1000 years
"should be finished", do the souls of the wicked exit Hades "to be judged
and cast into Hell". Greek; Rev.20:13.

David, the most important argument (left out of my seven points above)
for the 1000 years being future to Christ's SC is the sudden change from the Aorist Active Indicative (from Rev.19:20 to Rev.20:3a) to the Aorist Passive Subjunctive in vs.3,5,7 (telesthey). This shows what will happen 1000 years future to Satan having been cast into the Abyss. The Aorist Subjunctive mood has the force of a future tense and the passive voice shows Satan inactive for 1000 years.

The future tense (verse 8) then takes up Satan's activity after the
1000 years "should be finished"! There is no deception whatsoever by Satan!! "He will come out of the Abyss and deceive the nations" (Future
Indicative) after the 1000 years "should be finished"!!!

During that 1000 years, after the S.C., the Martyrs "shall serve God in heaven" (future tense, shall serve, for the Martyrs serve in the New Jerusalem in the third heaven while the Temple remains. Rev.7:15-17. The same future tense in Rev.22:3 occurs for those who "will serve God" forever when there is NO longer a Temple. Rev.21:22.

"By no means will any of the Martyrs go forth from the Temple" during the 1000 years. Rev.3:12. The Lamb will shepherd them and lead them in
living waters. At the same time the souls of the wicked remain in Hades and Satan remains in the Abyss. "The rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years `should be finished'" (Aorist Subjunctive; future intent; vs.5 as in vs.3 and vs.7). Amils cannot deal with the sudden change from the Aorist Indicative to the Aorist Subjunctive and then back to the future tense after the 1000 years are finished!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[EdSutton]

I have recently been informed that the Lord's words in Matthew 24 and 25 are not for Christians. Jesus was plainly teaching His disciples. By what theological device do we remove these teachings from ourselves today?

Matthew 24:3-4
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Just decided to look at this thread, which I have read in its entirety, BTW. The thread 'heading' and the OP 'opening sentence' are not exactly the same. And I think that is informative, in and of itself, for it demonstrates a vilid difference. All Scripture is FOR all of 'us' (II Tim. 3:16; Rom. 15:4: II Pet. 1; e.g.); not all Scripture is TO all of us (Ob. 1:1-2; Nah. 1:1-2; Phl'm. 1:1-2; Col. 1:1-2, 4:16, e.g.). Maybe we should not so easily blur this distinction.

Ed

 

[Mel Miller]

Matthew 24,25 not to Christians?

Just decided to look at this thread, which I have read in its entirety, BTW. The thread 'heading' and the OP 'opening sentence' are not exactly the same. And I think that is informative, in and of itself, for it demonstrates a valid difference. All Scripture is FOR all of 'us' (II Tim. 3:16; Rom. 15:4: II Pet. 1; e.g.); not all Scripture is TO all of us (Ob. 1:1-2; Nah. 1:1-2; Phl'm. 1:1-2; Col. 1:1-2, 4:16, e.g.). Maybe we should not so easily blur this distinction.

Ed

______________________________________________________________

Welcome again Ed. I agree. But let's note the differences.

I have tried to show that Matt.24 is TO us and FOR us as it relates to
all whom Jesus will "gather together above" (episunaxei) at the S.C.

However, Luke 21:22 to 36 is intended for Jewish consumption so that
it is written TO them but FOR our understanding! It must therefore be
a different slant on God's purpose for the "days of vengeance" on them
until they "know their redemption and kingdom are near and they will
mourn and beg to escape these things and to prevail to stand before
the Son of Man"!! Luke 21:28,31,36 (Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7; Zech.12;10).
"Days of wrath and vengeance" are never intended for Believers!!!

And Matt.25 is addressed TO "everyone left of the nations that must
come to Jerusalem annually to worship the King". Zech.14:9-21. At the end of Christ's 1000-Year-Reign, He will "separate the sheep from the goat nations and the former will bring their glory and honor into New Jerusalem.
Matt.25:32; Rev.21:24-26. The goats will be cast into Hell and the Sheep will "inherit the eternal kingdom on the New Earth".

So Matt.25 is not FOR Believers, the Bride of the Lamb, who alone will inhabit the New Jerusalem and "serve God in heaven forever". Rev.22:3.

What do you think?

Mel

 

[EdSutton]

______________________________________________________________

Welcome again Ed. I agree. But let's note the differences.

I have tried to show that Matt.24 is TO us and FOR us as it relates to
all whom Jesus will "gather together above" (episunaxei) at the S.C.

However, Luke 21:22 to 36 is intended for Jewish consumption so that
it is written TO them but FOR our understanding! It must therefore be
a different slant on God's purpose for the "days of vengeance" on them
until they "know their redemption and kingdom are near and they will
mourn and beg to escape these things and to prevail to stand before
the Son of Man"!! Luke 21:28,31,36 (Matt.24:30; Rev.1:7; Zech.12;10).
"Days of wrath and vengeance" are never intended for Believers!!!

And Matt.25 is addressed TO "everyone left of the nations that must
come to Jerusalem annually to worship the King". Zech.14:9-21. At the end of Christ's 1000-Year-Reign, He will "separate the sheep from the goat nations and the former will bring their glory and honor into New Jerusalem.
Matt.25:32; Rev.21:24-26. The goats will be cast into Hell and the Sheep will "inherit the eternal kingdom on the New Earth".

So Matt.25 is not FOR Believers, the Bride of the Lamb, who alone will inhabit the New Jerusalem and "serve God in heaven forever". Rev.22:3.

What do you think?

Mel

Sorry, Mel and all. I don't see any reaon to 'split' Matt 24 & 25, and I'll let it go at that for now. This would simply take more time than I can spare for a bit. Right now I'm too busy to go into any detail. See my prayer request on another forum. Thanks, all. I hope to really get back on everyone's nerves in a short while.

Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //And Matt.25 is addressed TO "everyone left of the nations that must
come to Jerusalem annually to worship the King". Zech.14:9-21.//

I beleive that Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 is addressed to the same people.
Matthew 24:4-44 is 'divided up' as I said earlier, answering
the Disciple's questions in Matthew 24:3 in the order asked,
not the order executed.

Matthew 24:45-5:30 contains three parables about the
coming Messanic Kingdom. Matthew 25:31-40
speaks of the Sheep & Goat Nations Judgement of
Jesus. This is when Jesus chooses which of the nations
of the earth shall survive into the Physical/Literal
Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. The choice will be made
on how those nations treated the Jews during the
3½-year-long Wrath of God called
the Great Tribualtion (Period).

Passages Parallel to Matthew 24:24-25 are found in
Mark 13:1-36 and Luke 21:5-38. Luke 21:37-38
provides the title for this message:
The Mount Olivet Discource (MOD).
Note also that Luke 17:26-37 parallels part of
the MOD as denoted in Matthew and Mark.

 

[Mel Miller]

Matt.25 to Christians?

Quote:
________________________________________________________________
Matthew 25:31-40 speaks of the Sheep & Goat Nations Judgement of Jesus. This is when Jesus chooses which of the nations of the earth shall survive into the Physical/Literal Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. The choice will be made on how those nations treated the Jews during the 3½-year-long Wrath of God called the Great Tribualtion (Period).
________________________________________________________________

Ed,

How does the above respond to your reference to my quote:
"Mel Miller: //And Matt.25 is addressed TO "everyone left of the nations that must
come to Jerusalem annually to worship the King". Zech.14:9-21.//

It is quite obvious that all who DO qualify as Sheep will enter the
Kingdom because they "mourn and beg to escape all the things that
happenS on the Day" Christ appears and "they will be kept alive".
Not only according to Luke 17:33; Luke 21:36; but also Zech.14:16.

It is not true that good people will qualify to be "kept alive" because of the way they treat the Jews in the Great Tribulation. That is contrary
to the Gospel and contrary to the "condition" for "inheriting the eternal
kingdom on the earth" as promised in Matt.25:32. Why do you not distinguish between
the condition of "faith alone" for Christians and begging to just be "kept alive" for those left behind when Christ comes?

Your concept, if true to the Gospel message, would only allow those
who are already Christians to "inherit the Kingdom"! Not because of their
personal Faith in Christ, but only because they had treated the Jews as
they treat Jesus!! All Christians should treat the Jews as they treat Him
...without any thought of inheriting the Kingdom as a special reward!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Mel Miller: You confuse my statements about
non-pre-tribulation rapture parts of the future with your
lack of a pre-tribulation rapture belief. It is, to say the
least, confusing.

Mel Miller: //All Christians should treat the Jews as they treat Him
...without any thought of inheriting the Kingdom as a special reward!!! //

There are no Christians in the Tribulation Period to do
anything to the Jews. It will be non-Christian nations
treating the Jews however they will. The nations will
be judged for how they treat the Jews duirng the
Tribulation Period.

Mel Miller: //It is not true that good people will qualify
to be "kept alive" because of the way they treat
the Jews in the Great Tribulation. That is contrary
to the Gospel and contrary to the "condition" for "inheriting the eteral
kingdom on the earth" as promised in Matt.24:32. //

I say the Bible teaches it; you say it is contrary to
the Gospel. BTW, I don't see how Matt 24:#2 has
to do with your statement nor does it seem to
directly address the question here.

(sorry, I've been off-line for a few days. My anti-viral
programs were clashing each other?)

 

[Mel Miller]

Matthew 25 Not to Christians?

Brother Mel Miller: You confuse my statements about

non-pre-tribulation rapture parts of the future with your lack of a pre-tribulation rapture belief. It is, to say the least, confusing.

There are no Christians in the Tribulation Period to do anything to the Jews. It will be non-Christian nations treating the Jews however they will. The nations will be judged for how they treat the Jews during the Tribulation Period.

[Mel Miller: //It is not true that good people will qualify to be "kept alive" because of the way they treat the Jews in the Great Tribulation. That is contrary to the Gospel and contrary to the "condition" for "inheriting the eternal kingdom on the earth" as promised in Matt.24:32-34. //]

I say the Bible teaches it; you say it is contrary to the Gospel. BTW, I don't see how Matt 24:32-34 has to do with your statement nor does it seem to directly address the question here.
_____________________________________________________________

Ed,
Your opening statement above is a comment on your view; not on mine! IMO, your 2nd paragraph has absolutely no foundation; but is contrary to the Gospel!! I don't understand how you even reached this conclusion!!!

Ed's Quote about no Christians in the Tribulation:
"There are no Christians in the Tribulation Period to do anything to the Jews. It will be non-Christian nations treating the Jews however they will. The nations will be judged for how they treat the Jews during the Tribulation Period".
_____________________________________________________________

So you have decided that non-Christians will “inherit the kingdom” if they treat the Jews during the tribulation the way they would (should) treat Jesus! As with the basis for most of your comments, you seem to think that the Saints who "die in the Lord" during the great tribulation are "not Christians"!! On the contrary, those who "come out of the great tribulation from every nation and are rewarded with serving God in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years" will also be "shepherded by the Lamb in heaven" while you and I, lacking that reward, will at best "rule over the nations on the earth"!!!

You have determined that the sheep who "inherit the kingdom" when Christ comes can only do so by "treating the Jews as they would treat Jesus"! That’s probably why you deny anyone will become a Christian during the tribulation!! On what basis do you change the Gospel “way of salvation” for the Martyrs coming out of great tribulation who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb”?!!! Rev.7:14.

You assume there will be "no Christians" left on earth to deal with Jews during the Endtime! Why not accept that all who believe in Jesus prior to His return will be members of the Bride of the Lamb?!! We will "inhabit the New Jerusalem forever" at the End of the Millennium while Sheep Nations will “inherit the Kingdom on Earth forever”!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //So you have decided ... //

Mel Miller: //You have determined that ... //

Mel Miller: //You assume there will be ... //

Your charaterizations of my Biblically based beliefs
are so far off base that it would be a waste of my time
to debate them. Recommend you stick to explaining
your own beliefs.