Matthew 24, Verse by Verse, FULFILLED!

[Saint of Circumstance]

The following is a verse by verse commentary on Matthew 24, showing it's direct application to, and fulfillment in, the 1st century.

Scripture and history testify that all criteria Christ set forth in this discourse were indeed met by people and events within that apostolic generation, exactly as prophesied.

While the carnal temptation is to place the fulfillment of these things into OUR time, We need look no furthur than the apostles own generation for the fulfillment of "all these things".

Matt 24:1-3 -- Christ announces that the second Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind, would soon be destroyed and earthly Jerusalem made desolate. The Jewish followers of Christ, as citizens of the Old Covenant dispensation, inquire as to the future of their nation, having been informed that the end of that age would be accompanied by the annihilation of the entire Mosaic Temple system and state. These disasters came to pass in accordance with the prophecies of Christ: The Jews launched the Great Revolt in AD 66 under messianic king Menahem (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 2:17) and set fire to the Holy Temple at the desolation of Jerusalem at AD 70 (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2). At the end of this tribulation, Roman armies took apart the Jerusalem Temple stone-by-stone to get the gold that had melted down between the cracks (during the fires) and to remove the headquarters of the Jewish revolt. The Temple vessels and utensils were then plundered and taken to Rome by General Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7).

Matt 24:4 -- Shaken by the prospect of the destruction of their glorious Temple, and knowing from the destruction of Solomon's Temple 600 years prior that such calamities mark God's visitation to them (Jer 7:1-20,29-34), the apostles ask, "When will these things be?" and "What sign signifies thy coming at end of the age?" The questioning highlights the fact that the Judgement coming of Christ and the end of the Old Testamental age would be discerned and comprehended in the passing of calamitous signs.

Matt 24:4-5 -- Christ predicts the intensification of false messianic movements within Israel and around the empire. First-century examples: Dositheus the Samaritan (Origen: Contra Celsum, VI, ii; Hom. xxv in Lucam; Contra Celsum, I, lvii), Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) who was deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37), Herod Agrippa (Acts 12:20-23), Menahem (Josephus: War of the Jews; 2.433-450). Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the Almighty. (Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.) During this period (52-58 AD) arose a celebrated Egyptian deceiver (Acts 21:38), who collected thirty-thousand followers and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling them that from there they would see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison and their obtaining the sovereignty of the city (Josephus: War of the Jews, 2.259-263; Antiquities of the Jews 20.169-171). Such messiahs and magicians were often as powerful in the display of miracles as were the apostles (see: Simon of Samaria in Acts 8:9-11; Apollonius of Tyana). Partial list of first-century false messiahs: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BC); Simon of Peraea (4 BC); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BC); Judas, the Galilean (6 AD); the Samaritan prophet (36 AD); King Herod Agrippa (44 AD); Theudas (? AD); the Egyptian prophet (52-58 AD); anonymous prophet (59 AD); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 AD); John of Gischala (67-70 AD); Vespasian (67 AD); Simon bar Giora (69-70 AD). Related link: Livius.org - Messiah Overview.


Continued....

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Continuing...

Matt 24:6-8 -- Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." For more on wars of this time and false prophets, see: Josephus: Antiquities, 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars, 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2. As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

Matt 24:9-10 -- Jesus foretells the persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero, who falsely blamed the Christian sect for burning up to half of Rome. This persecution went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was precisely 3.5 years, from 64-68AD. It is essential to note that Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23, a passage which all scholars assign to a first-century fulfillment. Jesus predicts the civil wars of the Jews (Matt 24:10; 10:21), and the great Jewish civil war occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1).

Matt 24:11-13 -- Jesus teaches more on false prophets, emphasizing their key role in the delusion of the nation, as per 2 Thess 2:7-11 (see also: Antiquities, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). Josephus says false prophets were related to the messianic movement of the seditious Zealots, who promised a redemption for the Jewish rebels at the Temple but were met with total destruction at the hand of the Romans. In Matthew 24:13 Jesus holds out hope for the believers who might endure to the end. (Verses 24:12-13 are parallel to Matthew 10:21-22.)

Matt 24:14 -- A key sign of the end of the Jewish age was the gospel's rapid proclamation to the whole world (Greek: "oikoumene" = "inhabited earth;" "Roman Empire" -- Strong's # 3625). This sign was rapidly fulfilled in the apostles' generation, especially through Paul's ministry (Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16; Acts 13:47). The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire (compare the geographic boundaries of the "whole world" in Matt 24:14 with that of the same "whole world" in Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The use of the Greek word "oikoumene" (Strong's #3625) in Matt 24:14 speaks of the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" ("oikoumene") of the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (see: Luke 2:1). Early Church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Eusebius, and Chrysostom said Matthew 24:14 as fulfilled in the apostles' generation. The immediate and rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire Empire signified a covenantal shift to a new dispensation wherein all nations participate equally in the blessing of Abraham through faith (Gen 12:1-3; Gal 3:6-9,14,29).

Matt 24:15-20 -- Christ tells of His nation's Great Tribulation (cf. Luke 21:20-23). The famous historic account of the exodus of the Jerusalem Church in AD 66-67 is recorded by Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History, iii.v.). The Judean remnant saw the armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD surrounding Jerusalem (and Vespasian's shortly thereafter; compare to the parallel account in Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots as Paul had foretold (2 Thess 2:4-7). Messiah-King Menahem and the Zealots turned the temple into a military outpost, defiled it with murderous blood, and made evil of their own high priest while launching the Great Revolt. During this time, the daily sacrifices offered to Rome were ended, which was a declaration of war against the Roman Empire. These events signaled the faithful Jewish remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them in Matthew 24:16-20 and Luke 21:20:23. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius writes, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there to depart from Jerusalem and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither; and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end of the great tribulation the Romans made sacrifices to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Continued...

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Continuing...

Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

Matt 24:32-33 -- Jesus gives a parable about trees and their seasons (Luke 21:29-31). The shooting forth of leaves signals that summer is now near at hand. Jesus applies this natural phenomenon to his apostles and the season of the end of the age: "So likewise you too [the apostles], when you shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (cf. James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account, Christ's promise to the apostles is as follows: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).

Matt 24:33-34 -- In this passage, the climax of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus promises his apostles that they will see all these signs come to pass in their generation: "So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

 

[BobRyan]

"I will come again and receive you to myself that where I am there you may be also" John 14:1-3

Matt 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The great tribulation such as never existed for mankind -- future to Christs day includes the 1260 years of dark ages where more than 50 million Christians were killed.

the Dark Day New England's Dark Day - Wikipedia
of Matthew 24

"New England's Dark Day refers to an event that occurred on May 19, 1780, when an unusual darkening of the day sky was observed over the New England states and parts of Canada"

(there is a nonesensical version imagining that a fire 100's of miles away caused it - but as folks on the west coast and in Georgia know -- when there is a massive fire 100's of miles away strong enough to send smoke into your sky -- that far away -- everyone can smell it, no mystery at all --- 1780 was not the first time that mankind saw smoke).

Even so - some imagined that the cause of the Dark Day was smoke from extensive forest fires. When a fire does not kill a tree and the tree later grows, scar marks are left in the growth rings. This makes it possible to approximate the date of a past fire. But does not pin point an exact day nor indicate that it would only last for about a day all over the North East without everyone smelling smoke in the air.

In any case these signs happen "immediately after the great tribulation"

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Obviously that has not happened yet

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

 

[prophecy70]

Matt 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The great tribulation such as never existed for mankind -- future to Christs day includes the 1260 years of dark ages where more than 50 million Christians were killed.

the Dark Day New England's Dark Day - Wikipedia
of Matthew 24

"New England's Dark Day refers to an event that occurred on May 19, 1780, when an unusual darkening of the day sky was observed over the New England states and parts of Canada"

(there is a nonesensical version imagining that a fire 100's of miles away caused it - but as folks on the west coast and in Georgia know -- when there is a massive fire 100's of miles away strong enough to send smoke into your sky -- that far away -- everyone can smell it, no mystery at all --- 1780 was not the first time that mankind saw smoke).

Even so - some imagined that the cause of the Dark Day was smoke from extensive forest fires. When a fire does not kill a tree and the tree later grows, scar marks are left in the growth rings. This makes it possible to approximate the date of a past fire. But does not pin point an exact day nor indicate that it would only last for about a day all over the North East without everyone smelling smoke in the air.

Um? Say what?

 

[prophecy70]

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11). All torah-observing, Messiah-rejecting Jews were gathered into Jerusalem from all over the world at Passover Feast in 67AD and were shut in by the Zealot and Roman armies. Now, locked in the giant furnace of the city, millions were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:40-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31; Matt 21:40-45). It is no surprise that rabbis today call 70AD the "end of biblical Judaism." Indeed, the faithful and newly consummated Church-bride was gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church-nation of Christ, thus fully built and established, is never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true Faith of the Living God and the Holy Nation. Christ's followers were destined to occupy all nations to gather the elect from all peoples into Abraham's blessing (Gal 3:7-9.14,16,26-29; Gen 12:1-3). The teachings and prophecies of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated by this historic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 66-70.

 

[Revmitchell]

What is it people are doing when the post a quote with not comment from them? I don't get it.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

What is it people are doing when the post a quote with not comment from them? I don't get it.

My Guess is that P70 didn't feel the need to re invent the wheel here...
Since BobRyans objection was already explicitly addressed point by point in my OP, I think P70 merely quoted the answer to Bob's objection that I had already laid out.

Hope that helps.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Obviously that has not happened yet

Obviously?

Again, Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is, OBVIOUSLY now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus OBVIOUSLY came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage OBVIOUSLY speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is OBVIOUSLY signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple.

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

So is it your ccontention that the 1st century Thessalonian congregation is Still, to this very day, Suffering in their Affliction at the hands of their 1st century persecutors?

 

[Revmitchell]

My Guess is that P70 didn't feel the need to re invent the wheel here...
Since BobRyans objection was already explicitly addressed point by point in my OP, I think P70 merely quoted the answer to Bob's objection that I had already laid out.

Hope that helps.

It is a poor way to respond. I personally would not read nor respond to two quotes in any given post devoid of personal comments. In this case i did to obtain clarification.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

It is a poor way to respond. I personally would not read nor respond to two quotes in any given post devoid of personal comments. In this case i did to obtain clarification.

Thank you for sharing your opinion

 

[prophecy70]

What is it people are doing when the post a quote with not comment from them? I don't get it.

Why would I need to explain something already explained perfectly in the OP?.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Obviously that has not happened yet

Obviously?

Again, Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5),

Not sure how this is helping your case.

Isaiah 34
Come near, you nations, to hear;
And heed, you people!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Two great examples of how a local minor incident is used as a type of a much greater event in the future - and the description in the text totally blows out the local event - and points the reader to the future event.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

So is it your ccontention that the 1st century Thessalonian congregation is Still, to this very day, Suffering in their Affliction at the hands of their 1st century persecutors?

No -- it is my contention that the NT saints "fixed their hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to them at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

1 Peter 1
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is my contention that they viewed death as a dormant state - and thus instantaneous passage over that gap of time -- to the 2nd coming.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

BobRyan said: ↑
Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Obviously that has not happened yet

Really?

Take a look at how David Describes His defeat of Saul and his Armies:

2 Samuel 22:5-16

5 When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid;

6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

7 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.

8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.

11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.

14 The Lord thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.

16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.


Obviously this all LITERALLY happened exactly How David described it, yes?

Or do you contend this language, being consistant with language you have already claimed could not have happened yet, means David was wrong to say it Had?

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

No -- it is my contention that the NT saints "fixed their hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to them at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

IF 2 Thess 6-7 is NOT fulfilled (as you claim), then the 1st century Thessalonian congregation, by NECESSITY, has not yet been granted RELIEF from their Afflictions, and are still to this very day SUFFERING in them.
You can wiggle around this all you want, but those are just the facts.

The one and ONLY evend that would grant them relief is Jesus' Parousia. Not Death, not the passing of Generations and ages and Millennia... ONLY the parousia, which you claim did not happen for them, ergo, you claim the Thessalonians of the 1st century are STILL SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF THEIR PERSECUTORS TO THIS VERY DAY.

Unless you believe Paul was wrong here?

 

[BobRyan]

IF 2 Thess 6-7 is NOT fulfilled (as you claim), then the 1st century Thessalonian congregation, by NECESSITY, has not yet been granted RELIEF from their Afflictions,

That would be an extreme form of the logical fallacy : reductio ad absurdum since Paul never argues "you will be alive until Christ is revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel". They could not even die of old age or an accident by the logic you are using.


You can wiggle around this all you want, but those are just the facts.

The one and ONLY evend that would grant them relief is Jesus' Parousia.

The Parousia the text points to is this --- Jesus revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel


That has not happened - we still have folks around that do not obey the Gospel and there has been no Jesus revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Obviously that has not happened yet



Great example of future climactic events symbolized by some minor local event

Isaiah 34
Come near, you nations, to hear;
And heed, you people!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Two great examples of how a local minor incident is used as a type of a much greater event in the future - and the description in the text totally blows out the local event - and points the reader to the future event

============================== also seen here

Ezek 38
And the word of the Lord came to me saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords; 5 Persia, Ethiopia and Put with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6 Gomer with all its troops; Beth-togarmah from the remote parts of the north with all its troops—many peoples with you.

7 “Be prepared, and prepare yourself, you and all your companies that are assembled about you, and be a guard for them. 8 After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them. 9 You will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you.”
..
16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

17 ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them? 18 It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” declares the Lord God, “that My fury will mount up in My anger. 19 In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare that on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains,” declares the Lord God. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone. 23 I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the Lord.”’

Rev 20 is fulfillment at the end of the 1000 year millennium
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

No need to "imagine" that Gog and Magog in the days of Ezekiel never died living to John's day... living until after the millennium.

 

[Walter]

"I will come again and receive you to myself that where I am there you may be also" John 14:1-3

Matt 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The great tribulation such as never existed for mankind -- future to Christs day includes the 1260 years of dark ages where more than 50 million Christians were killed.

the Dark Day New England's Dark Day - Wikipedia
of Matthew 24

"New England's Dark Day refers to an event that occurred on May 19, 1780, when an unusual darkening of the day sky was observed over the New England states and parts of Canada"

(there is a nonesensical version imagining that a fire 100's of miles away caused it - but as folks on the west coast and in Georgia know -- when there is a massive fire 100's of miles away strong enough to send smoke into your sky -- that far away -- everyone can smell it, no mystery at all --- 1780 was not the first time that mankind saw smoke).

Even so - some imagined that the cause of the Dark Day was smoke from extensive forest fires. When a fire does not kill a tree and the tree later grows, scar marks are left in the growth rings. This makes it possible to approximate the date of a past fire. But does not pin point an exact day nor indicate that it would only last for about a day all over the North East without everyone smelling smoke in the air.

In any case these signs happen "immediately after the great tribulation"

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Obviously that has not happened yet

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Well, since you are posting, Bob. Why don't you trot over and respond to the questions asked you on the abortion thread you created. You accused me and others of 'making things up' but the facts are there for all to see.

 

[Saint of Circumstance]

That would be an extreme form of the logical fallacy : reductio ad absurdum since Paul never argues "you will be alive until Christ is revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel".

Paul NEVER ARGUES that?

1 Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

They could not even die of old age or an accident by the logic you are using.

An individual Thessalonian's death woulld not end the systematic persecution of the Thessalonain congregation. That's absurd.
Paul says only Jesus Coming to THEM would do that.

You claim Jesus faild to Come TO THEM to Give them relief as He PROMISED He would.

In contrast, I believe Jesus Keept His word.

The Parousia the text points to is this --- Jesus revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel

That has not happened - we still have folks around that do not obey the Gospel and there has been no Jesus revealed from heaven in flaming fire dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel

Again, He did indeed, in the Same way the Father, countless times in the OT, was revealed from heaven in Flames, clouds and the like, destroying His enemies with the brighness of His coming, making the Heavnes receed, making mountains melt, the sun go dark, moon not give it's light, stars fall from the sky, and being seen by the eyes of all Nations.

Take off the Hollywood glasses.