Matthew 7:13-14

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
If you believe that one can't fall away, I'm afraid you do argue against the Bible.

Tuor,

I find nothing in the Bible about being born from above again and again and again and again.

If you believe that a saved person can be snatched out of God's hand, you are arguing against the Bible. If you believe that a saved person can ever be lost after being saved, you are arguing against the Bible.

John 10:27-30(NASB)
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 “I and the Father are one.”

Romans 8:31-39(NASB)
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Eladar]

See Ken, that is what I'm talking about. Some how you think you have God all figured out. In doing so you believe that your understanding is perfect and any stance that you make is in total accord with every scripture. Here is proof that you are not:

Matthew 13:20-21

The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

Notice I did not say that someone who falls away can get saved again, then lose it, then be saved again and so on and so forth as your understanding of how God works would lead you to believe.

By the way, do you deny what Jesus says is possible in verses 32-35 of Matthew 18?

Matthew 18:21-35

"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Jesus clearly states that the monetary debt represents our sin debt to God. In the parable, the sinner's sins are forgiven, but later on they are reinstated and unforgiven. There is no possible way for this once forgiven sinner to repay his debt and is therefore sent to be tortured for all eternity.

Yes, I know that this is a parable about forgiveness, but that does not negate how Jesus said it worked.

 

[KenH]

So what are you saying, Tuor? Are you saying that you believe after a person is saved, if he becomes unsaved, that's it - no chance to come back to Jesus?

Also, it is not wise to take verses out of context. We must take the Bible as a whole. You put out verses that you claim teach something that is clearly at odds with the verses I submitted. I believe you are looking at verses divorced from a systematic understanding of the Bible as a whole and that you are looking at verses outside of placing them within the context of the Bible as a whole.

As long as you continue to do that, we will never be in agreement on this earth.

 

[Eladar]

I am saying that how God works is beyond our understanding.

When it comes to my understanding of salvation, I look to what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 4:1-5

Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

I believe you are looking at verses divorced from a systematic understanding of the Bible as a whole and that you are looking at verses outside of placing them within the context of the Bible as a whole.

I believe you are taking verses of the Bible and running with them because you want to put God in man's box. You are correct in one thing, we must take the Bible as a whole.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
1) yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary

2)And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him

1)Notice how the Bible says this man has not root and his following of Jesus is only temporary. He was never saved as his heart never ceased to be stony, there was never any regeneration in his life. He is like these folks:

John 6:66(NASB)
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

And why did they refuse to walk with Him? -

John 6:65(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

2)This is a church matter similar to language that the apostle Paul used -

1 Corinthians 5:5(NASB)
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:20(NASB)
20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

You should notice that this was done as a matter of salvation, not damnation.

Now, let's see you deal with the verses I submitted.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
I am saying that how God works is beyond our understanding.

Then why are you only arguing against the Calvinist position? Arminians are also debating in this forum about how God saves. That is what this forum is all about - soteriology - how God saves sinners.

If you are going to be consistent, let's see you also argue against the Arminian position.

 

[Eladar]

1)Notice how the Bible says this man has not root and his following of Jesus is only temporary. He was never saved as his heart never ceased to be stony, there was never any regeneration in his life.

You are making quite an assumption here. Jesus does not say that these people were not "really saved". Jesus states that these people at one time accepted the gospel, but they ended up falling away.

You should notice that this was done as a matter of salvation, not damnation.

Now, let's see you deal with the verses I submitted.

As I said, God's ways are beyond our understanding. I am of the opinion that God allows us free will and predestines our fate. As I said, God is beyond our understanding.

If you are going to be consistent, let's see you also argue against the Arminian position.

It seems to me that the Arminians are in the minority on this site. I see them getting beat up all the time.

By the way, if you'll go back and read my post of 1 Corinthians 4:1-5, you will see that I have already attacked the Arminian position.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
It seems to me that the Arminians are in the minority on this site. I see them getting beat up all the time.

If true, it's one of the few places in today's Christendom where they are the ones in the minority and getting beat up all the time.

 

[Eladar]

This is a Baptist board and most baptists are of the Calvinistic branch. For every Free Will Baptist Church I've ever seen, I've seen at least 10 Baptist Churches from the other side of the aisle.

 

[KenH]

I am a Southern Baptist and there are very few 5-point Calvinistic Southern Baptist Churches, although you can find a lot of Southern Baptists who believe the T and the P, but not the inbetween. They are at best donut Calvinists - they have a hole in the middle.

Most Southern Baptists don't have an identifiable theology as we talk about it in this forum. It's more a make-it-up-as-you-go theology as doctrinal issues intrude into their lives.

 

[Eladar]

It seems to me that the OSAS doctrine is very much a part of the Southern Baptist organization.

Here is a scripture in response to God's sovereignty as you see it:

2 Peter 3:8-9

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


If God is totally soveriegn, by your defintion of soveriegn, why isn't everyone going to heaven? God wants all to come to repentance.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
1)It seems to me that the OSAS doctrine is very much a part of the Southern Baptist organization.

2)God wants all to come to repentance.

1)Absolutely.

2)That epistle was written to Christians. "All" therefore in that specific verse refers to the elect, those saved by the blood of Christ. You will probably disagree but in other conversations I have seen non-Calvinists concede, perhaps begrudgingly, that that is a possible meaning.

 

[Eladar]

If you are going to replace "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" with "not wishing for any of the elect to perish but for all of the elect to come to repentance", that is your perogative, but adding to the word of God is not a good thing to do.

There is scripture in Ezekiel that supports what 2 Peter 3:8-9 plainly says:


Ezekiel 18:23-32


"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tuor:
1)It seems to me that the OSAS doctrine is very much a part of the Southern Baptist organization.

2)God wants all to come to repentance.

1)Absolutely.

2)That epistle was written to Christians. "All" therefore in that specific verse refers to the elect, those saved by the blood of Christ. You will probably disagree but in other conversations I have seen non-Calvinists concede, perhaps begrudgingly, that that is a possible meaning. </font>[/QUOTE]WRONG KEN, "All" in this scripture describes the whole of humanity and not just those who have already come to be Christian. Peter is telling his audience that it is God's desire than no one should perish. If it had been a targeted "all" as you say, it would have been modified by "you" or 'We' or 'us' as in "You all" specifying his audience.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
but adding to the word of God is not a good thing to do.

So because my interpretation disagrees with your interpretation I am "adding to the word of God"?

I did not add any words or change any words. I interpreted words which I have just as much of a right to do as you do, Tuor, whether you like it or not.

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
If it had been a targeted "all" as you say, it would have been modified by "you" or 'We' or 'us' as in "You all" specifying his audience.

It is.

2 Peter 3:8-9(NASB)
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If "all" was not particular but meaning all people of all time, then Peter would have written "is patient toward all".

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[Eladar]

Ken,

Your interpretation is not based on what the scripture says(as Yelsew has pointed out), it has to do with fitting this scripture into your theology. That is a dangerous thing to do.

***I just saw your response to Yelsew***

Now back up a couple of verses and you will find that Peter is asking them to stay the course because there are those who don't believe God. He is telling them to be true because if they turn away, they will not be saved.

 

[Frogman]

Are we now of those who don't believe God? Having once tasted the good things of God, been made the partakers of the heavenly calling then we shall be among those who do not believe God?

Eternal life is Eternal Life. Or else Christ is a liar. I am certain of whom I have believed and will not turn aside for the fear of others because by Grace am I made a child of God and by Grace I remain so to the end of this world.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Eladar]

Paul warns us not to judge things before its time. Jesus is not a liar simply because some put words into his mouth.

 

[KenH]

I stand by my interpretation, Tuor, and I stand by my trust in Jesus Christ to bring me safely to Him.

I believe your interpretation to be wrong. And I am very sorry that you don't have the same confidence in Jesus that I do that He will bring you safely to Him. It is terrible to be in your position and have to fret and worry 24 hours a day that you might make a misstep and end up in hell even though you have trusted in the finished work of Jesus on your behalf.

May God have mercy on us all.