Matthew 7:13-14

[KenH]

Tuor,

I noticed you still haven't dealt with the verses I submitted earlier in this thread but took a pass on them, even though you offer your interpretation on other verses.

I think that speaks volumes about the absolute weakness of your position.

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
If it had been a targeted "all" as you say, it would have been modified by "you" or 'We' or 'us' as in "You all" specifying his audience.

It is.

2 Peter 3:8-9(NASB)
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If "all" was not particular but meaning all people of all time, then Peter would have written "is patient toward all".

May God have mercy on us all. </font>[/QUOTE]The evidence belies your interpretation. God does in truth desire that all mankind not perish. Your interpretation of Peter's text is not proven in any other context.

not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Why would Peter say this to those who have already come to repentance?

 

[Eladar]

No Ken, it is not the weakness of my position. It is the stregnth of my position. I don't deny parts of the Bible. You are the one who does that. It is my position that God is beyond our understanding and both predistines and allows free will.

The only weakness of my position is that it doesn't make sense to man's logic.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
1) God does in truth desire that all mankind not perish.

2)Your interpretation of Peter's text is not proven in any other context.

3)Why would Peter say this to those who have already come to repentance?

1)Then why in your scheme is God not able to save all?

2)My interpretation is proven in lots of verses(e.g., John 6:37, 44, 10:11, Isaiah 53:11) and by the context of the Bible as a whole.

3)Because all of those given by God to Christ had not been regenerated yet. For instance, those of us who are saved today were not even born at the time that Peter wrote that epistle.

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Tuor:
It is my position that God is beyond our understanding and both predistines and allows free will.

Then why are you inconsistent by offering your interpretation of some verses but not other verses? How do you decide how to pick and choose? Based on which ones you like, which ones you agree with? Just ignore the ones you don't like, the ones you disagree with?

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[Yelsew]

1)Then why in your scheme is God not able to save all?

God is able to save all, He set the stage for all mankind to be saved. He made that way so that any and everyone who believes is saved. It is man who rejects his own salvation. That's right, man does not want to be saved

2)My interpretation is proven in lots of verses(e.g., John 6:37, 44, 10:11, Isaiah 53:11) and by the context of the Bible as a whole.

Mine is also substantiated in scripture.

3)Because all of those given by God to Christ had not been regenerated yet. For instance, those of us who are saved today were not even born at the time that Peter wrote that epistle.

So you believe that Peter knew he was writing to people 2 milleniums in the future? I am convinced that Peter expected the return of the Christ in his own lifetime. Peter was writing to 'current' Christians in his time, giving specific instruction to them. He wrote universal truths that could apply to any time, but his language was targeted to his immediate audience, therefore he is saying that All mankind are the targets of God's salvation.

 

[Eladar]

I'm sorry, but I thought I told you that I believed in predestination.

John 10:27-30

My take on this is that God's people will know God's voice. They will seek out God. Does this mean predestination? Perhaps, perhaps not.

There there's the nobody can snatch them out of my hands. Does this mean once saved always saved? No. It just means that those who are God's people are God's people. Could it mean predestination? Yes. Does it mean that there must be predestination for all? No. It just means what it says. You can take it and run with it if you like, but be careful.

Romans 8:31-39

Does God love those who reject Him? It seems to me that if the answer is yes that you must believe in universal salvation.

Other than that, I'd say that this is talking about the elect and no where in the Bible does it say that the elect know who they are while they are alive. Even Paul does not judge that he must be a part of the elect. He is confident, but he does not deem himself to be judge. See 1 Corinthians 4:1-5.

John 6:65

I'd say that this is a possible predestination verse, but it doesn't need to be. It is possible that there are those who were given the chance that did not come to Jesus.

If I were to say to you that in order to buy a Coke you must have a dollar, does that mean that only the people who buy Cokes have a dollar? No, but it does mean that the people who have Cokes had a dollar. There may be people with a dollar who don't like Coke.

1 Corinthians 5:5

I found it surprising that you'd bring up 1 Corinthians 5 because that is a verse that has to do with what you'd call losing salvation. Go back and read 1 Corinthians 5 again and you will see that Paul was in fear that this person might not be found righteous on the day of the Lord.(This is when we are judged, not one day earlier)

1 Timothy 1:20

Once again, someone needed to reprimanded so that they will repent and be found righteous. If they were to continue in rebellion, they would not be found righteous on the day of the Lord.

Did I miss any?

 

[Eladar]

Ken,

What are your thoughts on Ezekiel 18? I find a rather interesting connection between God telling everyone to repent and Jesus telling people to enter through the narrow gate.