Matthew 7:21-23?

[FollowTheWay]

Thank you for your response, but it still does not answer my question. We can read we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.[2 Corinthians 5:8] So it seems that as soon as a believer dies, they go to be with the Lord, and will know ahead of time their standing before Him on the day of judgment. So they will not be caught off-guard when they are welcomed into the eternal state to be forever with Him.

Likewise, when the lost die, they go to hades/hell/sheol/nether world to await judgment and they know then and there their destiny. So they should not be surprised when He tells them to depart from His presence. Yet, that is what Matthew 7:21-23 seems to say. Now again, I may be reading too much into this and this is their final plea for mercy and look to their good works and try to use them as a reminder to Him. Maybe that is what Jesus is alluding to?

I think the problem is we have a different perspective on the timing of the final judgment. I believe that as soon as we die we are immediately standing before Christ to be judged along with everyone who has ever lived. We are at that moment outside time in a timeless realm. Some will be surprised by their eternal destination for the reasons you gave.

 

[Silverhair]

Having read through this thread and having seen some very good answers I can only try to add yet one more voice.

Try to put yourselves it the place of the petitioners. If you were standing there and heard those words what would you say? BUT but but I went to church, I studied my bible, I gave to charities. That is what we see form the those in Mat 7:21-23. It was all about what "I" have done nothing about what Christ Jesus had done for them.

Many "Christians" will be shocked when they realize that the foundation they build on was only sand and not the solid rock form God.

A minister I had many years ago used to say "When you shoot at a target it does not matter if you miss by an inch or a mile, you still missed". Those that trust in themselves have missed the target.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Just want to share some further on this.

could the "DAY", (On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord...), that Jesus is here speaking of, is the Day when He shall return, at the Beginning of His Millennium Reign?

"For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer, since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you, and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day." (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10)

Those in Matthew 7, had not died as yet, and are before the Lord in Judgement for the things that they had done in their lifetime.

"According to the grace of God which is given to me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let every man be careful how he builds on it. For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ. And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is. If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

Which is probably when Jesus shall separate the Sheep from the Goats?

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory. And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats" (Matthew 25:31-32)

 

[kyredneck]

rules out any "second chance" to hear the Gospel and get saved.

1 Peter 3:19 ...wonder what this was about...

 

[SavedByGrace]

1 Peter 3:19 ...wonder what this was about...

the Greek verb κηρύσσω, does not only have the meaning "preach". In fact its base meaning is "proclaim, announce, herald".

Jesus ANNOUNCED to these spirits something that we are not told anything further about. Hebrews 9:27 is quite clear that there is no slavation possible after death. As does the Account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, in Luke 16.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus ANNOUNCED to these spirits something that we are not told anything further about.

Well, they weren't just any ol' spirits that He preached to:

Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:9

18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,
20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: 1 Pet 3

6 And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude

The type, Joseph, interpreted dreams in prison. The antitype, Christ, preached to the spirits in prison. In the type of Joseph the butler got set free and the baker got his head chopped off. 'When we all get to heaven' I won't be surprised to find out that some of those angels were accepted back into the fold.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well, they weren't just any ol' spirits that He preached to:

Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:9

18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,
20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: 1 Pet 3

6 And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude

The type, Joseph, interpreted dreams in prison. The antitype, Christ, preached to the spirits in prison. In the type of Joseph the butler got set free and the baker got his head chopped off. 'When we all get to heaven' I won't be surprised to find out that some of those angels were accepted back into the fold.

Do you believe that a person can be born again after their physical death

 

[kyredneck]

Do you believe that a person can be born again after their physical death

...lol, let me guess, this is one of those trick questions where you hope to snare me and prove I'm a covert RCC operative, or something like that...

 

[SavedByGrace]

...lol, let me guess, this is one of those trick questions where you hope to snare me and prove I'm a covert RCC operative, or something like that...

Just responding to your own comment especially about the fallen angels who you think might be reconciled

 

[kyredneck]

Just responding to your own comment especially about the fallen angels who you think might be reconciled

Nah, I said "I won't be surprised to find out that some of those angels were accepted back into the fold".

 

[SovereignGrace]

I think the problem is we have a different perspective on the timing of the final judgment. I believe that as soon as we die we are immediately standing before Christ to be judged along with everyone who has ever lived. We are at that moment outside time in a timeless realm. Some will be surprised by their eternal destination for the reasons you gave.

Yet in Jude 1 we see those who fell with Satan who are reserved for the day of judgment. So I don’t think anyone is truly judged until the last day.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Just want to share some further on this.

could the "DAY", (On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord...), that Jesus is here speaking of, is the Day when He shall return, at the Beginning of His Millennium Reign?

"For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer, since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you, and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day." (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10)

Those in Matthew 7, had not died as yet, and are before the Lord in Judgement for the things that they had done in their lifetime.

"According to the grace of God which is given to me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let every man be careful how he builds on it. For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ. And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is. If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

Which is probably when Jesus shall separate the Sheep from the Goats?

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory. And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats" (Matthew 25:31-32)

I don’t want to turn this thread into a eschatology debate but I do think those who are pleading with Him, plead with Him on “that day” [vs 22]. I believe “that day” is the day of judgment, the last day.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I don’t want to turn this thread into a eschatology debate but I do think those who are pleading with Him, plead with Him on “that day” [vs 22]. I believe “that day” is the day of judgment, the last day.

Biblically, I cannot see who a person who is lost (unsaved), and has died, and then in Hades, where they would already be suffering, can then "plead" with the Lord about not being in heaven.

As the Bible is contradiction free, though there are many paradoxes, we cannot believe that Matthew 7:21-23, refers to after death. The passage in Luke has very similar language, and is clear that they were outside the Kingdom of God, seeking to get in. This passage in Luke, explains what Jesus says in Matthew.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Biblically, I cannot see who a person who is lost (unsaved), and has died, and then in Hades, where they would already be suffering, can then "plead" with the Lord about not being in heaven.

As the Bible is contradiction free, though there are many paradoxes, we cannot believe that Matthew 7:21-23, refers to after death. The passage in Luke has very similar language, and is clear that they were outside the Kingdom of God, seeking to get in. This passage in Luke, explains what Jesus says in Matthew.

Well, as I understand things, the lost(spirit goes, body is buried, cremated, or by other means such as the 9/11 event where it seems many bodies were never found, but burned up and amid the ashes of those Twin Towers), upon death, go to hades/hell/Sheol/nether world. On the last day, they come from there, are reunited with their bodies at the resurrection of the just and unjust, and are given their guilty verdict. It’s then they are cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well, as I understand things, the lost(spirit goes, body is buried, cremated, or by other means such as the 9/11 event where it seems many bodies were never found, but burned up and amid the ashes of those Twin Towers), upon death, go to hades/hell/Sheol/nether world. On the last day, they come from there, are reunited with their bodies at the resurrection of the just and unjust, and are given their guilty verdict. It’s then they are cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

Jesus is very clear in Luke chapter 16 where He goes into much detail about the afterlife of both the righteous and unrighteous. The Rich Man is said to be in torments and suffering in fire. Hades is not just a waiting room for the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus is very clear in Luke chapter 16 where He goes into much detail about the afterlife of both the righteous and unrighteous. The Rich Man is said to be in torments and suffering in fire. Hades is not just a waiting room for the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.[Revelation 20:14]

So, if hades is where the rich man went, it was cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.[Revelation 20:13]

Even here it says hades is emptied out as those there will come forth to be judged on the last day. It is after judgment is rendered they are cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus is very clear in Luke chapter 16 where He goes into much detail about the afterlife of both the righteous and unrighteous. The Rich Man is said to be in torments and suffering in fire. Hades is not just a waiting room for the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death

I tend to look at it like this. When a person is found guilty of a crime worthy of prison, they go to jail until they stand before the judge on the day his sentence is formally given. It is then his sentence is rendered. He’s guilty the whole time, and knows prison awaits him. So I see hades as jail and the lake of fire as prison. I know you can poke holes throughout this, but I hope you understand the gist of what I’m stating.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.[Revelation 20:14]

So, if hades is where the rich man went, it was cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.[Revelation 20:13]

Even here it says hades is emptied out as those there will come forth to be judged on the last day. It is after judgment is rendered they are cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

The casting of Hades into the Lake of Fire has not taken place as yet.

Those in Hades like the Rich Man are still there

 

[SavedByGrace]

I tend to look at it like this. When a person is found guilty of a crime worthy of prison, they go to jail until they stand before the judge on the day his sentence is formally given. It is then his sentence is rendered. He’s guilty the whole time, and knows prison awaits him. So I see hades as jail and the lake of fire as prison. I know you can poke holes throughout this, but I hope you understand the gist of what I’m stating.

So as the lost go to Hades at death, they will be already suffering and aware of this. It is also clear from the Account in Luke 16, that once you are in Hades you cannot leave. In which case those in Matthew 7 cannot refer to after death

 

[SovereignGrace]

The casting of Hades into the Lake of Fire has not taken place as yet.

Those in Hades like the Rich Man are still there

Oh, I agree with that, as that was never a point I was making. I’m just wondering why ppl who are in Hades seem to be caught off-guard by being told to depart from Him. Maybe it’s just them pleading for mercy? Someone said that, not ver batim, but does seem like a very plausible take on this subject.