Medical Examiner Concluded George Floyd Likely Died Of Fentanyl Overdose, Court Docs Reveal

[Salty]

Many think, "I can't breathe!" came as a result of the knee.

Then they very well could have been wrong

In the army, we often heard the term "Barracks lawyer" which means a Private is a lousy source for legal advice- since he is not in the legal field - Now if a Private did work in the legal office - he knew the only proper advice was "Make an apt with JAG"

Methinks the same goes for "Barracks doctors"

 

[canadyjd]

Dont you think "definitive" is necessary to establish guilt BEYOND a reasonable doubt?
The cause of death is drug overdose.
Floyd asked to be laid on ground.
Officers called EMS and laid him on ground.
Knee to the neck has bad optics but M E. report says it is not the cause of death.

How again did the officers kill Floyd?

The ME report did not say overdose was cause of death. It says overdose was likely cause of death. As an experienced LEO, you know those statements are not the same. Cause of death was not definitively determined.

The ME report did not say the knee to neck did not cause death. It says there was no evidence of asphyxiation. Those are not the same.

IMO, Floyd overdosed. The overdose caused his heart and respiration to slow, causing him to say he couldn’t breathe because he was in fact having trouble breathing.

The LEO’s handcuffed him, as was appropriate. When they tried to put him into the car, he resisted and wanted to be laid down. As far as I could tell, beyond the “overcoming my weight” resistance, Mr. Floyd was not kicking or actively trying to harm the LEO’s.

They laid him face down, and then at least one LEO got in his back and another put a knee to his neck. For the next 6 min or so, Mr. Floyd begged for his life claiming he couldn’t breathe. At some point, Mr. Floyd became unconscious and unresponsive. A LEO check for a pulse and couldn’t detect one.

What followed is why I think the LEO’s killed Mr. Floyd. For 2:45 sec they remained on top of an unconscious, unresponsive man with no detectable pulse.

We will never know if Mr. Floyd would have survived the overdose, had the LEO not complicated his condition by further restricting his ability to breathe and staying on him when it was obvious he posed no danger and there was no legal reason to restrain him.

peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

The ME report did not say overdose was cause of death. It says overdose was likely cause of death. As an experienced LEO, you know those statements are not the same. Cause of death was not definitively determined.

The ME report did not say the knee to neck did not cause death. It says there was no evidence of asphyxiation. Those are not the same.

IMO, Floyd overdosed. The overdose caused his heart and respiration to slow, causing him to say he couldn’t breathe because he was in fact having trouble breathing.

The LEO’s handcuffed him, as was appropriate. When they tried to put him into the car, he resisted and wanted to be laid down. As far as I could tell, beyond the “overcoming my weight” resistance, Mr. Floyd was not kicking or actively trying to harm the LEO’s.

They laid him face down, and then at least one LEO got in his back and another put a knee to his neck. For the next 6 min or so, Mr. Floyd begged for his life claiming he couldn’t breathe. At some point, Mr. Floyd became unconscious and unresponsive. A LEO check for a pulse and couldn’t detect one.

What followed is why I think the LEO’s killed Mr. Floyd. For 2:45 sec they remained on top of an unconscious, unresponsive man with no detectable pulse.

We will never know if Mr. Floyd would have survived the overdose, had the LEO not complicated his condition by further restricting his ability to breathe and staying on him when it was obvious he posed no danger and there was no legal reason to restrain him.

peace to you

Likely cause of death is overdose.
No evidence of asphyxiation in a criminal case means there was no asphyxiation. You must have evidence of asphyxiation to convict some of killing a person by asphyxiation.
How do you overcome Reasonable doubt?
You say "We will never know.". To overcome reasonable doubt, you have to know.

 

[canadyjd]

Likely cause of death is overdose.
No evidence of asphyxiation in a criminal case means there was no asphyxiation. You must have evidence of asphyxiation to convict some of killing a person by asphyxiation.
How do you overcome Reasonable doubt?
You say "We will never know.". To overcome reasonable doubt, you have to know.

You don’t have to prove asphyxiation. You only have to demonstrate the actions of the LEO’s contributed to Mr. Floyd’s death. I don’t think that will take much effort. I hope the defense uses your reasoning that the “optics are bad”, but didn’t contribute to his death.

To overcome reasonable doubt, you ask every able juror to kneel on a pillow for 2:45 sec imagining they are on the neck of a man that is unconscious, unresponsive with no detectable pulse. A man that had complained he couldn’t breathe and had begged for his life for about 6 min before becoming unconscious.

peace to you

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

To overcome reasonable doubt, you ask every able juror to kneel on a pillow for 2:45 sec imagining they are on the neck of a man that is unconscious, unresponsive with no detectable pulse. A man that had complained he couldn’t breathe and had begged for his life for about 6 min before becoming unconscious.

If a fellow juror suggested that, I’d suggest he lie down while I did the kneeling. Much closer to the real deal. “Only time will tell.”

Or we could just ask for the same amount of fentanyl for every doubting Thomas to take. If all survive with no kneeling, then reasonable doubt goes out the window.

 

[canadyjd]

.....
Or we could just ask for the same amount of fentanyl for every doubting Thomas to take. If all survive with no kneeling, then reasonable doubt goes out the window.

I am opposed to asking jurors to overdose on fentanyl.

peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

You don’t have to prove asphyxiation. You only have to demonstrate the actions of the LEO’s contributed to Mr. Floyd’s death. I don’t think that will take much effort. I hope the defense uses your reasoning that the “optics are bad”, but didn’t contribute to his death.

To overcome reasonable doubt, you ask every able juror to kneel on a pillow for 2:45 sec imagining they are on the neck of a man that is unconscious, unresponsive with no detectable pulse. A man that had complained he couldn’t breathe and had begged for his life for about 6 min before becoming unconscious.

peace to you

You are making an emotional plea, not a legal arguement. You cant prove actions contributed to death. You keep lowering the bar. There was a woman whose husband shot and killed her just as I was arriving on scene. Did I contribute to her death because I drove 115 mph to get there instead of 140? Had I driven 140, I would have gotten there in time to save her. Thats assuming I would have arrived at all.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I am opposed to asking jurors to overdose on fentanyl.

In other words, the fentanyl killed him, not the officer. You just lost your case.

 

[Calminian]

You don’t have to prove asphyxiation. You only have to demonstrate the actions of the LEO’s contributed to Mr. Floyd’s death....

Unintentionally contributing to someone's death, who was on the verge of dying, and in a very weakened state due to a drug overdose, does't seem like much of a legal accomplishment. I'm guessing some kind of reckless endangerment charge may stick.

 

[canadyjd]

You are making an emotional plea, not a legal arguement. You cant prove actions contributed to death. You keep lowering the bar. There was a woman whose husband shot and killed her just as I was arriving on scene. Did I contribute to her death because I drove 115 mph to get there instead of 140? Had I driven 140, I would have gotten there in time to save her. Thats assuming I would have arrived at all.

It is an appeal to logic, not emotion. You have yet to articulate a legal reason for LEO’s to keep a knee on neck and back of a man that is unconscious, unresponsive and without a detectable pulse, for 2:45 secs. The demonstration gives jurors an idea of how long 2:45 sec really is.

Sorry to hear about the woman who was killed by her husband. Must have been tough to see. Not your fault, he would have shot her when you got there no matter how fast you drove.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Unintentionally contributing to someone's death, who was on the verge of dying, and in a very weakened state due to a drug overdose, does't seem like much of a legal accomplishment. I'm guessing some kind of reckless endangerment charge may stick.

I don’t disagree that a charge less than murder will ultimately be outcome, though I haven’t changed my mind this is murder.

“Unintentional” is the key word. I don’t see how they couldn’t know they were contributing to Mr. Floyd’s death.

Like I’ve stated before once or twice, 2:45 sec on neck and back knowing Mr. Floyd was unconscious, unresponsive, and without a detectable pulse. You have to know that is making death certain, imo.

peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

It is an appeal to logic, not emotion. You have yet to articulate a legal reason for LEO’s to keep a knee on neck and back of a man that is unconscious, unresponsive and without a detectable pulse, for 2:45 secs. The demonstration gives jurors an idea of how long 2:45 sec really is.

Sorry to hear about the woman who was killed by her husband. Must have been tough to see. Not your fault, he would have shot her when you got there no matter how fast you drove.

peace to you

There is no reason to keep the knee on the neck. Proving beyond a reasonable doubt the knee to the neck killed him is another story.

 

[canadyjd]

In other words, the fentanyl killed him, not the officer. You just lost your case.

In other words, make an outrageous statement like “jurors should overdose on fentanyl” and if I disagree claim you won the argument.

Thanks for the insightful comment.

peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

I don’t disagree that a charge less than murder will ultimately be outcome, though I haven’t changed my mind this is murder.

“Unintentional” is the key word. I don’t see how they couldn’t know they were contributing to Mr. Floyd’s death.

Like I’ve stated before once or twice, 2:45 sec on neck and back knowing Mr. Floyd was unconscious, unresponsive, and without a detectable pulse. You have to know that is making death certain, imo.

peace to you

Look at it logically. Would the officer intentionally kill Floyd in front of video and witnesses?

 

[Calminian]

I don’t disagree that a charge less than murder will ultimately be outcome, though I haven’t changed my mind this is murder.....

Of course, cuz you can only speculate about what was in someone's mind.

From my view the officer was being nasty, leaning on the guy's neck. He likely knew it hurt and was uncomfortable and didn't care. He did not know the guy had lethal levels of drugs in his system and was in need of emergency care. I think it's possible Floyd lives if the officer behaves correctly, and calls in help sooner.

From my non-legalistic knowledge, they should go for involuntary manslaughter (such a thing?).

I think Trump summed it up. Sometimes people screw up (choke as he calls it). I remember him talking about this in business before he was president. Someone can be perfect their entire career and then have one momentary lapse of reason that is a disaster. They let their tempers go, they get nervous, they freeze, etc. They're people, it happens, it has nothing to do with race.

 

[canadyjd]

There is no reason to keep the knee on the neck. Proving beyond a reasonable doubt the knee to the neck killed him is another story.

Proving the knee on neck contributed to Mr. Floyd’s death is a matter of common sense and logic.

I agree there was no legal reason for the LEOs to stay on him.

I understand what you are saying but just disagree. The LEO must have known his actions, at the very least, were likely to cause extreme harm to Mr. Floyd.

peace to you

 

[Calminian]

In other words, make an outrageous statement like “jurors should overdose on fentanyl” and if I disagree claim you won the argument.

Thanks for the insightful comment.

peace to you

Liberals never seem get hyperbole nor sarcasm for some reason. I really believe they should offer college courses on these rhetorical devices.

 

[canadyjd]

Of course, cuz you can only speculate about what was in someone's mind.

From my view the officer was being nasty, leaning on the guy's neck. He likely knew it hurt and was uncomfortable and didn't care. He did not know the guy had lethal levels of drugs in his system and was in need of emergency care. I think it's possible Floyd lives if the officer behaves correctly, and calls in help sooner.

From my non-legalistic knowledge, they should go for involuntary manslaughter (such a thing?).

I think Trump summed it up. Sometimes people screw up (choke as he calls it). I remember him talking about this in business before he was president. Someone can be perfect their entire career and then have one momentary lapse of reason that is a disaster. They let their tempers go, they get nervous, they freeze, etc. They're people, it happens, it has nothing to do with race.

Good points, and probably closer to a realistic outcome here.

I know murder conviction is unlikely because of ME report.

I cannot forget Mr. Floyd begging for his life and this LEO smirking at the crowd and then staying on his neck even after being told he had no pulse.

I still get sick to the stomach wondering how someone could be so devoid of simple decency.

peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

Proving the knee on neck contributed to Mr. Floyd’s death is a matter of common sense and logic.

I agree there was no legal reason for the LEOs to stay on him.

I understand what you are saying but just disagree. The LEO must have known his actions, at the very least, were likely to cause extreme harm to Mr. Floyd.

peace to you

Common sense and logic. Honestly, to me, they say if the man was not asphyxiated the knee on the neck meant absolutely nothing.
I used that restraint in the academy and had it used on me. Did not interfere with my breathing one bit.
Now a naked choke is a different story.

 

[canadyjd]

Liberals never seem get hyperbole nor sarcasm for some reason. I really believe they should offer college courses on these rhetorical devices.

Once again, I’ve become a liberal.

I responded to sarcasm with sarcasm.

peace to you