Messianic Kingdom

[Me4Him]

This verse does not even remotely imply that the "rest" is the MK. It is speaking of the rest that comes from faith in Christ. This book was written to the Jews and explains throughout that Jesus is their/our rest. We cease to "work" when we put our faith in Christ. It speaks repeatedly of faith vs. works for salvation.



How true. And you have done just what you say others shouldn't.

Scriptures requires at least "TWO WITNESSES" to "establish a matter", but when you find "THREE", or "MORE", as the ol saying goes, "You can take it to the bank".

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

The same pattern of days described for the world's beginning, is the same pattern described for it's end.

http://i32.tinypic.com/30a6dd1.jpg

 

[Amy.G]

Scriptures requires at least "TWO WITNESSES" to "establish a matter", but when you find "THREE", or "MORE", as the ol saying goes, "You can take it to the bank".

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

The same pattern of days described for the world's beginning, is the same pattern described for it's end.

http://i32.tinypic.com/30a6dd1.jpg

What? That verse is God declaring His sovereignty. What does it have to do with the MK?

 

[OldRegular]

Scriptures requires at least "TWO WITNESSES" to "establish a matter", but when you find "THREE", or "MORE", as the ol saying goes, "You can take it to the bank".

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

The same pattern of days described for the world's beginning, is the same pattern described for it's end.

http://i32.tinypic.com/30a6dd1.jpg

Me4Him, what in the world are you talking about? Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the question in the OP neither does it respond to the truth Amy.G's expressed.

 

[Me4Him]

Thank you Amy! If Me4Him would read the entire chapter perhaps he could see the truth.

Would you care to show us in/with scripture, what transpires during the time period the Tares are cast into hell with the previous unsaved dead and they "live not until the thousand years are finished??

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

God said nothing that defiles will enter the "NEW" heaven/earth, so Satan certainly isn't going to be turned loose in the "NEW" heaven/earth,

so how do you account for this thousand years that begins with the "First Resurrection" and Jesus's return to earth???

 

[Me4Him]

What? That verse is God declaring His sovereignty. What does it have to do with the MK?

I "Believe" you question as too where there was/wasn't a MK???

In this world we earn a living by the "sweat of our brows", during the MK, we don't "WORK" for a living.

That's the "REST" Hebrew 4 referred too.

 

[Amy.G]

I "Believe" you question as too where there was/wasn't a MK???

In this world we earn a living by the "sweat of our brows", during the MK, we don't "WORK" for a living.

That's the "REST" Hebrew 4 referred too.

No it isn't. Read the whole chapter.

 

[OldRegular]

Would you care to show us in/with scripture, what transpires during the time period the Tares are cast into hell with the previous unsaved dead and they "live not until the thousand years are finished??

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

God said nothing that defiles will enter the "NEW" heaven/earth, so Satan certainly isn't going to be turned loose in the "NEW" heaven/earth,

so how do you account for this thousand years that begins with the "First Resurrection" and Jesus's return to earth???

Answer this question: What is the First and only Resurrection to date and who has part in the First Resurrection?

You won't but I will!:laugh:

The First and only Resurrection to date is that Of Jesus Christ. Those who have part in the First Resurrection are the true believers, the Saints. As I stated earlier the "so called millennium" is the period between the ascension of Jesus Christ and His Second Coming.

As for what happens to Satan and all unbelievers read Revelation 20:9-15.

 

[Me4Him]

As I stated earlier the "so called millennium" is the period between the ascension of Jesus Christ and His Second Coming.

It's been "TWO" thousand years (two Days, day=1000 years) since Jesus ascended, so Jesus is a thousand years "LATE" for his promised return, according to your doctrine. :tonofbricks:

Amill is a doctrine a BB gun can shot down, no need to bring out the "big Cannons".

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

You should be aware that "a thousand years" or "the thousand years" is symbolic meaning, it represents of lengeth period.

Notice in Greek #5507 of 'thousand'- Rev. 20:2,3, 4,5,6, and 7. 'thousand' in Greek #5507 is plural or uncertain. "A thousand years" or "the thousand years" could be last several thousands of years such as 2,000 or 3,000. But, Revelation chapter 20 of 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years' speaking of temporary period while Church is continue spread the gospel over the world since after Christ gaven the keys(power or authority) to Church since Satan is being resistng or restrain at Calvary and His resurrection. It have been happening for almost 2,000 years now already.

When the sign of falling away within Church's spiritual become worst, God knows when the right time to come. Then, God will allow Satan to be loose out of the midst according to 2 Thess. 2:3-8. Then, 'a thousand years' will be expired as Satan looses. I believe 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years' period is almost finish, because I have seen Church's spiritual already become worst lately that we are seeing apostasy everywhere over the world according 2 Thess. 2:3.

Right now, we are in 'a thousand years' period, because the gospel is still present and continue spread over the world, it have been last for almost 2,000 years. I believe 'a thousand years' will be end as when Satan shall be loose out of the midst as he shall be revealed as world dicator to deceive the world, and the persecutions will strike against Christians in America hard soon.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him,

You should be aware that "a thousand years" or "the thousand years" is symbolic meaning, it represents of lengeth period.

Notice in Greek #5507 of 'thousand'- Rev. 20:2,3, 4,5,6, and 7. 'thousand' in Greek #5507 is plural or uncertain. "A thousand years" or "the thousand years" could be last several thousands of years such as 2,000 or 3,000. But, Revelation chapter 20 of 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years' speaking of temporary period while Church is continue spread the gospel over the world since after Christ gaven the keys(power or authority) to Church since Satan is being resistng or restrain at Calvary and His resurrection. It have been happening for almost 2,000 years now already.

When the sign of falling away within Church's spiritual become worst, God knows when the right time to come. Then, God will allow Satan to be loose out of the midst according to 2 Thess. 2:3-8. Then, 'a thousand years' will be expired as Satan looses. I believe 'a thousand years' or 'the thousand years' period is almost finish, because I have seen Church's spiritual already become worst lately that we are seeing apostasy everywhere over the world according 2 Thess. 2:3.

Right now, we are in 'a thousand years' period, because the gospel is still present and continue spread over the world, it have been last for almost 2,000 years. I believe 'a thousand years' will be end as when Satan shall be loose out of the midst as he shall be revealed as world dicator to deceive the world, and the persecutions will strike against Christians in America hard soon.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

If the "Seventh day" is a "thousand years", how long do you suppose the other "SIX DAYS" will be, less/more than a thousand???

Everything God plans is in "WEEKS", a "DAY" within those weeks can be 24 hours, 1 year (Daniel's 70 week prophecy) or a "thousand year" day.

Ex 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: (day of the Lord/MK)

That one verse lays out God plan for the earth/man, everything in scripture is prophesied to occur at an appointed time within that plan.

Plain and simple, it's a "WEEKLY SCHEDULE".

Jesus condemned those of his day for being able to read the "Signs of the sky" but not the "Sign of the "TIME". (for the Messsiah)

Lu 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

What "Sign" did Jesus condemn them for not being able to "READ"???

Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:

Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:

Have you figured out which "DAY" of this "weekly schedule" Jesus came into the world???


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved,....... "be not ignorant of this one thing,"


that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

There's a little more to the scriptures than what you discovered, so far. :thumbs:

http://i18.tinypic.com/66c6f51.jpg

 

[Pilgrimer]

I merely gave one verse as requested that can prove a second earthly kingdom to be and I did just that.

I disagree. The verse you quoted proves that before Pentecost the disciples were expecting Jesus to set up an earthly kingdom according to the "traditions" the Rabbis had taught them all their lives, that's all it proves. After Pentecost, the kingdom they teach is the same kingdom Jesus taught, the heavenly kingdom of God. Indeed, on the day of Pentecost itself Peter explained to his Jewish listeners that Jesus was the fulfillment of the ancient Davidic promise.

I think you are very mixed up here. You seem to assume that Jesus could not and was not not able to reveal any truth to these disciples especially after His resurrection.

I assume nothing, I quoted Jesus himself:

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

Jesus is the one who said they could not bear the things he had to teach them but would be guided into the truth by the Holy Ghost when He was come. And notice that Jesus also said that the Spirit would “show them things to come,” which means they must not have already understood the “things to come” as you are suggesting or they wouldn’t need the Holy Ghost to show them to them.

The idea that the disciples understood from the beginning everything Jesus was teaching them about his coming and his work and his kingdom is contradicted by the direct testimony of Jesus to them stating that they would not understand the truth or the things to come until after they received the Spirit . . . “Except a man is born again . . .”

In fact, before the cleansing work of the blood of Christ in the outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, these men were still capable of walking in a spirit that was anti-thetical to the work that Jesus had come to do. Remember Peter recoiling when Jesus told them that he would go to Jerusalem and be arrested and killed? Peter rebuked Jesus for saying it and Jesus responded, “Get thee behind me Satan.” Peter was clearly speaking out of a spirit that was opposing the very work God was doing, not because Peter was a bad man, but because Peter was misguided about what the coming of the Messiah meant, what Jesus had come to do! How then can you maintain that the disciples understood what Jesus had come to do when you know how they all scattered after he was arrested and cowered behind bolted doors? Heavens, they wouldn’t even believe Mary when she came and told them she had seen him alive after his resurrection!?! No, the disciples absolutely did not understand the purpose of the coming and the work of Jesus until after his work was accomplished and he returned to heaven and poured out upon them his spirit and they were born again. It was at that moment that their eyes were opened and they finally understood the Kingdom of God Jesus had preached for 3 ½ years. You absolutely must be born again, born of the spirit, in order to “see” the kingdom of God for this very reason . . . it is a spiritual kingdom, invisible to the natural eye and can only be seen and comprehended by the spirit.

That was when the disciples finally understood that Jesus the Messiah did not come to restore sovereignty to Israel. That was never the plan and purpose of God. Jesus came to restore men to a right relationship with God, that was the plan and purpose of God from the very beginning, and God accomplished it not by conquering the nations as the Rabbis taught he would, but by conquering sin and death, not to give the Jewish nation power and authority over the world, but to give the church, Jew and Gentile, power and authority over the sin and death that took mankind captive at the fall.

Nor did Jesus die simply because the Jewish rulers were blind and corrupt, Jesus died because that was the means of salvation God had ordained before the world began. The cross was not an interruption in the plan of salvation, the Cross was the plan of salvation.

Also, Israel wasn’t chosen to be God’s saved nation, Israel was chosen to be the means through whom God would accomplish his salvation for all nations, the people through whom the Messiah would be born. That was the purpose for which Israel was chosen, and that is the glory of the Jewish people, that was what God meant when he spoke of exalting them above all nations, the fact that it is through them that God has brought salvation to the world. That’s why old Simeon, when he saw the infant Jesus when he was brought to the Temple to be circumcised, said he could die in peace now, because he had seen God’s salvation, and the glory of the people of Israel. I think there is confusion about what Israel’s part was in God’s plan, but I don’t think it’s me who is confused.

If what you are presuming is true then Jesus was doing nothing but wasting his breath and time talking to the disciples and specifically explaining the

Kingdom of God.

No, no, not at all! Jesus also told the disciples at the last supper:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26

Jesus wasn’t wasting his breath, but he knew they did not understand what he was teaching them but that when the Spirit was come upon them their eyes would be opened and then they would begin, not only to remember the things Jesus had taught them, but they would then understand what Jesus meant. And that included all Jesus’ teaching about the kingdom of God, which is spiritual and which therefore requires a man be born of the spirit to see.

So again I say, I think it is a mistake to assume the disciples truly understood the “kingdom” and those things which were “yet to come” before they received the Spirit, unless you think Jesus was wrong and they did not need the Spirit to give them eyes to see?


Continued . . .

 

[Pilgrimer]

Continued . . .

And sorry, they were not called disciples because they 'still' learning they were called disciples because they were followers of Christ who assisted in teaching Christ's truths and ways to others.

Actually, the word “mathetes” which is translated disciple does in fact literally mean “a learner, i.e. pupil,” while the word “apostolos” which is translated apostle means “an ambassador or messenger or one who is sent.”

Now this is just garbly-gook and speculation.

No Allan, I am talking history, not speculation. I have studied the historical messianic views of Rabbinic Judaism for over a quarter of a century and I can provide you numerous examples from the Talmudic writings to support the literalness of the Rabbinic interpretation. I have also studied the testimony of the historian Josephus who was an eyewitness to and participant in the history of the last days of the Old Covenant. 1st Century Palestine was plagued with false messiahs and false prophets, one of which is even mentioned in the New Testament, the Egyptian who led a small army of men in an attempt to take Jerusalem but the Romans got wind of the assault and met them on the Mount of Olives and slew several thousand of them. When Paul was arrested, one of the Romans asked him if he was that man (Acts 21:38). And you obviously do not know the history of the Zealots, which was a Messianic movement, and were the ones who ultimately were responsible for leading the revolt against Rome in the vain attempt to usher in the messianic kingdom in the firm belief that God was only waiting for them to “step out in faith” and throw off the yoke of the Romans and that God would be with them and would “give them the victory.”

Seriously, who has filled your head with such things? They rejected Jesus not because of a literal interpretation of scripture but because 'some' were looking for the wrong thing first, a ruler and a conquerer.

That’s just the point, they were looking for a Messiah who would set up a literal, earthly kingdom based on their very literal interpretation of the Scriptures. That’s what was taught by the Rabbis of Jesus’ day and is still the same Rabbinical teaching today, an expectation of an earthly kingdom based on a literal view. That hasn’t changed and they still look for an earthly king and an earthly kingdom to this very day. The reason the rulers of Israel rejected Jesus is because he did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies according to their interpretation, he didn’t liberate Israel from Rome and ride into Jerusalem on a multi-colored donkey and all the other little literal details they were expecting based on their interpretation. Jesus did not fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies, they failed to understand what the messianic prophecies were speaking of. Their interpretation was wrong, fatally wrong.

In this He would be bringing all the nations into subjection and freeing God's chosen people of Old - the Nation of Israel and fulfill His promise to 'them' that they would finally live in peace under their true and rightful King.

Again, they misunderstood. The plan of salvation God promised the Jews wasn’t to free them from Rome . . . but to free them from sin. And they thought the “peace” that God promised was just the kind you speak of, worldly peace, an absence of conflict or trouble. But Jesus explained that the peace he came to give was not the kind of peace the world gives. The peace the Messiah came to bring is peace with God (John 14:27), you remember, that peace Paul teaches that “passeth all understanding.” That was the peace the Old Testament promised, and that was the peace Christ came to give. The best interpretation of Old Testament Messianic prophecy is the Gospel, it is infallible.

Wow, you have a messed up view of what actually happened historically or better why things happened historically. They did not rebel against

Rome for you claim. That is the worst speculation set forth that I have ever read. They rebelled against Rome to try to free themselves in the hopes of re-establishing their Kingdom.

Precisely, they revolted against Rome in an attempt to establish the earthly messianic kingdom that they envisioned based on their erroneous interpretation of the messianic promises.

However this is not and can not be tied to their understanding of prophesy because the messiah is to be the one leading them in that battle and is someone who Israel claims as her messiah.

Correct, one of the Zealot leaders who led the revolt against Rome was proclaimed the messiah, dressed in the royal robes and crown brought from the Temple treasury, made a grand procession through the streets of Jerusalem up to the Temple Mount where his army took possession of the Temple Courts and he set up his camp in the court of Israel. Coins were struck to commemorate the “Deliverance of Jerusalem.” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews) All this is recorded by Josephus who explains precisely what I have outlined here, the Messianic claims of the Zealots.

They were trying to re-establish their kingdom but NOT to fulfill prophesy as you have wrongly presummed.

Wrong Allan, there were numerous false messiahs and false prophets during the last days of the Old Covenant, before the coming of Jesus and after. He even warned the disciples about them and warned them not to be fooled into following these men.

There is not support in this if one understands the Jewish views of the Messiah and coming re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel and the subjection of the whole world that peace might finally reign forever.

I am a long-time student of Rabbinic Judaism, so I have a pretty good understanding of their views. But they are wrong, and their interpretation of Scripture is wrong, which is why they do not see that Jesus is the very one of whom all those prophecies speak, but they can’t see that. Why? Because they are blinded by the glory of the Old Covenant with it’s worldly kingdom and it’s worldly temple and it’s worldly sacrifices and priests and people. And make no mistake, the things that pertain to the Old Covenant were glorious indeed, I have spent over half my life studying them. But they were blinded by the glory of those earthly things and never could see that those things were only types and shadows of things to come, heavenly, spiritual things which are far more glorious, including the heavenly kingdom of God where the Messiah sits on the throne in New Jerusalem shedding abroad the peace of God which is beyond understanding. Have you not heard the ancient proclamation of the angels on the night of Jesus’ birth: “Glory to God in the Highest, and on earth, peace . . .” Not the kind of peace the world gives, but peace with God through Jesus Christ . . . the Prince of Peace.

As for a day when the whole world will be at peace and there will be no more sin or evil? That day will not come until after the final judgment, when there are no more sinners or evil spirits, in the new heaven and new earth. That is when the kingdom of God will be manifest in the earth and the New Jerusalem will descend out of heaven to the earth and that is when Jesus will dwell with us face to face . . .

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them . . . and they shall see his face . . .” (excerpts from Revelation 21)

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Allan]

I disagree. The verse you quoted proves that before Pentecost the disciples were expecting Jesus to set up an earthly kingdom according to the "traditions" the Rabbis had taught them all their lives, that's all it proves. After Pentecost, the kingdom they teach is the same kingdom Jesus taught, the heavenly kingdom of God. Indeed, on the day of Pentecost itself Peter explained to his Jewish listeners that Jesus was the fulfillment of the ancient Davidic promise.

Well that is your opinion but it conflicts with scripture.

I assume nothing, I quoted Jesus himself:

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

He said He has many things to tell them but could not 'bear' them now, NOT understand them. And the coming of the Holy Spirit was guide them into 'all' truth, not to finally reveal truth to them but to continue in teaching them.

Jesus is the one who said they could not bear the things he had to teach them but would be guided into the truth by the Holy Ghost when He was come. And notice that Jesus also said that the Spirit would “show them things to come,” which means they must not have already understood the “things to come” as you are suggesting or they wouldn’t need the Holy Ghost to show them to them.

No, Jesus said nothing like what you said. The "things to come" is not an allusion to the Kingdom of God because Jesus was already teaching them this and it was His teaching which prompted the question. Jesus however did not dispute their question nor did He refute their question but affirmed the question as factual by stating the 'time' for that is in God's hands but yours is to worry about something else.

The idea that the disciples understood from the beginning everything Jesus was teaching them about his coming and his work and his kingdom is contradicted by the direct testimony of Jesus to them stating that they would not understand the truth or the things to come until after they received the Spirit . . . “Except a man is born again . . .”

No one state they understood 'everything from the beginning', that came from you. Jesus NEVER stated they will not understand any truth until the Holy Spirit comes, that completely out in left field. They understood as much truth as Jesus would reveal to them in His teachings. And they understood them. If they knew no truth or could know no truth till the Spirit come, how then could Peter state Jesus was the Christ? Or how could the go in His authority to preach, cast out demons, and heal if they knew no truth? Answer: they couldn't. For our faith is founded only in the truth. I am not saying they understood all of anything, only those things which Jesus choose to reveal. However, the full revelation of what He was to do and was about did not come into their understanding until after His resurrection.

In fact, before the cleansing work of the blood of Christ in the outpouring of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, these men were still capable of walking in a spirit that was anti-thetical to the work that Jesus had come to do. Remember Peter recoiling when Jesus told them that he would go to Jerusalem and be arrested and killed? Peter rebuked Jesus for saying it and Jesus responded, “Get thee behind me Satan.” Peter was clearly speaking out of a spirit that was opposing the very work God was doing, not because Peter was a bad man, but because Peter was misguided about what the coming of the Messiah meant, what Jesus had come to do! How then can you maintain that the disciples understood what Jesus had come to do when you know how they all scattered after he was arrested and cowered behind bolted doors? Heavens, they wouldn’t even believe Mary when she came and told them she had seen him alive after his resurrection!?! No, the disciples absolutely did not understand the purpose of the coming and the work of Jesus until after his work was accomplished and he returned to heaven and poured out upon them his spirit and they were born again. It was at that moment that their eyes were opened and they finally understood the Kingdom of God Jesus had preached for 3 ½ years. You absolutely must be born again, born of the spirit, in order to “see” the kingdom of God for this very reason . . . it is a spiritual kingdom, invisible to the natural eye and can only be seen and comprehended by the spirit.

You seem to assume a christian will not stand in opposition to what God desires at times - something also known as rebellion. Christians can stand in such a place though not for long due to God's love and chastening to bring them back.

Secondly I never stated the disciples understood what Jesus came to do. I say they understood after the resurrection His purpose and coming, but also many things which Jesus taught them about many things prior to His death.

Thirdly you last paragraph I disagree with. I agree that you must be born-again or saved in order to comprehend the things God is doing and why. But not in order to believe. Scripture never validates such a claim but stand in contraction of it.

That was when the disciples finally understood that Jesus the Messiah did not come to restore sovereignty to Israel. That was never the plan and purpose of God. Jesus came to restore men to a right relationship with God, that was the plan and purpose of God from the very beginning, and God accomplished it not by conquering the nations as the Rabbis taught he would, but by conquering sin and death, not to give the Jewish nation power and authority over the world, but to give the church, Jew and Gentile, power and authority over the sin and death that took mankind captive at the fall.

Not for the first advent, you are correct which is why they asked Him after His teaching them about the Kingdom and that was after His resurrection . The restoration of Israel is absolutely in the purpose and plan of God just not now, and it was something Paul adamantly taught was to come 'later' after the time of the Gentiles.

Nor did Jesus die simply because the Jewish rulers were blind and corrupt, Jesus died because that was the means of salvation God had ordained before the world began. The cross was not an interruption in the plan of salvation, the Cross was the plan of salvation.

Not sure what in the world you are talking about here. I never espoused such non-sense.

Also, Israel wasn’t chosen to be God’s saved nation, Israel was chosen to be the means through whom God would accomplish his salvation for all nations, the people through whom the Messiah would be born. That was the purpose for which Israel was chosen, and that is the glory of the Jewish people, that was what God meant when he spoke of exalting them above all nations, the fact that it is through them that God has brought salvation to the world. That’s why old Simeon, when he saw the infant Jesus when he was brought to the Temple to be circumcised, said he could die in peace now, because he had seen God’s salvation, and the glory of the people of Israel. I think there is confusion about what Israel’s part was in God’s plan, but I don’t think it’s me who is confused.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinions no natter how wrong they might be .

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26

That rememberance was about ALL those things He stated concerning His death and the scriptures He fulfilled. They knew the full truth of Him after the resurrection and expounded the scriptures to them. But they did not know all things and as they grew in grace and the Lord they would remember more, and go deeper, grow more mature... it is the same with christians today. We can hear alot but in our growth we will see greater and deeper truths in and of that which we were already told and believed.

Jesus wasn’t wasting his breath, but he knew they did not understand what he was teaching them but that when the Spirit was come upon them their eyes would be opened and then they would begin, not only to remember the things Jesus had taught them, but they would then understand what Jesus meant. And that included all Jesus’ teaching about the kingdom of God, which is spiritual and which therefore requires a man be born of the spirit to see.

Well that is your opinion and not one I find bourn out in scripture.

 

[Allan]

Continued . . .



Actually, the word “mathetes” which is translated disciple does in fact literally mean “a learner, i.e. pupil,” while the word “apostolos” which is translated apostle means “an ambassador or messenger or one who is sent.”

You forgot one word. - Follower.
Now you need to look at the definition of each word to get a better understanding of their usage because these words are not the same though they can parallel slightly. A follower is one who both believes and assists in the teaching of anther. (paraphrase), however the learner and pupil do not they simply listen and there is even a distinction in them.

No Allan, I am talking history, not speculation. I have studied the historical messianic views of Rabbinic Judaism for over a quarter of a century and I can provide you numerous examples from the Talmudic writings to support the literalness of the Rabbinic interpretation. I have also studied the testimony of the historian Josephus who was an eyewitness to and participant in the history of the last days of the Old Covenant. 1st Century Palestine was plagued with false messiahs and false prophets, one of which is even mentioned in the New Testament, the Egyptian who led a small army of men in an attempt to take Jerusalem but the Romans got wind of the assault and met them on the Mount of Olives and slew several thousand of them. When Paul was arrested, one of the Romans asked him if he was that man (Acts 21:38). And you obviously do not know the history of the Zealots, which was a Messianic movement, and were the ones who ultimately were responsible for leading the revolt against Rome in the vain attempt to usher in the messianic kingdom in the firm belief that God was only waiting for them to “step out in faith” and throw off the yoke of the Romans and that God would be with them and would “give them the victory.”



That’s just the point, they were looking for a Messiah who would set up a literal, earthly kingdom based on their very literal interpretation of the Scriptures. That’s what was taught by the Rabbis of Jesus’ day and is still the same Rabbinical teaching today, an expectation of an earthly kingdom based on a literal view. That hasn’t changed and they still look for an earthly king and an earthly kingdom to this very day. The reason the rulers of Israel rejected Jesus is because he did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies according to their interpretation, he didn’t liberate Israel from Rome and ride into Jerusalem on a multi-colored donkey and all the other little literal details they were expecting based on their interpretation. Jesus did not fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies, they failed to understand what the messianic prophecies were speaking of. Their interpretation was wrong, fatally wrong.




Again, they misunderstood. The plan of salvation God promised the Jews wasn’t to free them from Rome . . . but to free them from sin. And they thought the “peace” that God promised was just the kind you speak of, worldly peace, an absence of conflict or trouble. But Jesus explained that the peace he came to give was not the kind of peace the world gives. The peace the Messiah came to bring is peace with God (John 14:27), you remember, that peace Paul teaches that “passeth all understanding.” That was the peace the Old Testament promised, and that was the peace Christ came to give. The best interpretation of Old Testament Messianic prophecy is the Gospel, it is infallible.



Precisely, they revolted against Rome in an attempt to establish the earthly messianic kingdom that they envisioned based on their erroneous interpretation of the messianic promises.



Correct, one of the Zealot leaders who led the revolt against Rome was proclaimed the messiah, dressed in the royal robes and crown brought from the Temple treasury, made a grand procession through the streets of Jerusalem up to the Temple Mount where his army took possession of the Temple Courts and he set up his camp in the court of Israel. Coins were struck to commemorate the “Deliverance of Jerusalem.” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews) All this is recorded by Josephus who explains precisely what I have outlined here, the Messianic claims of the Zealots.



Wrong Allan, there were numerous false messiahs and false prophets during the last days of the Old Covenant, before the coming of Jesus and after. He even warned the disciples about them and warned them not to be fooled into following these men.



I am a long-time student of Rabbinic Judaism, so I have a pretty good understanding of their views. But they are wrong, and their interpretation of Scripture is wrong, which is why they do not see that Jesus is the very one of whom all those prophecies speak, but they can’t see that. Why? Because they are blinded by the glory of the Old Covenant with it’s worldly kingdom and it’s worldly temple and it’s worldly sacrifices and priests and people. And make no mistake, the things that pertain to the Old Covenant were glorious indeed, I have spent over half my life studying them. But they were blinded by the glory of those earthly things and never could see that those things were only types and shadows of things to come, heavenly, spiritual things which are far more glorious, including the heavenly kingdom of God where the Messiah sits on the throne in New Jerusalem shedding abroad the peace of God which is beyond understanding. Have you not heard the ancient proclamation of the angels on the night of Jesus’ birth: “Glory to God in the Highest, and on earth, peace . . .” Not the kind of peace the world gives, but peace with God through Jesus Christ . . . the Prince of Peace.

As for a day when the whole world will be at peace and there will be no more sin or evil? That day will not come until after the final judgment, when there are no more sinners or evil spirits, in the new heaven and new earth. That is when the kingdom of God will be manifest in the earth and the New Jerusalem will descend out of heaven to the earth and that is when Jesus will dwell with us face to face . . .

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them . . . and they shall see his face . . .” (excerpts from Revelation 21)

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Actaully I'm not quite the country bumbkin you might think I am. I have all the works of Josephus and have studied (to varying degrees) the historical messianic views of Rabbinic Judaism. However the Nation of Israel did not fall behind one man and become his army. They were looking for the messiah yes, but they, as a nation, did not cleave to one certain person and follow them. Many did but not as a unified nation. You are doing alot lopping and chopping to try to fit such history into biblical truth.

Question: (this might help matters somewhat for me in answering you)
Are you a full preterist or an Amill?
and lastly - do you believe the Christ is coming still yet to come physically?

 

[OldRegular]

If the "Seventh day" is a "thousand years", how long do you suppose the other "SIX DAYS" will be, less/more than a thousand???

Everything God plans is in "WEEKS", a "DAY" within those weeks can be 24 hours, 1 year (Daniel's 70 week prophecy) or a "thousand year" day.

Ex 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: (day of the Lord/MK)

That one verse lays out God plan for the earth/man, everything in scripture is prophesied to occur at an appointed time within that plan.

Plain and simple, it's a "WEEKLY SCHEDULE".

Jesus condemned those of his day for being able to read the "Signs of the sky" but not the "Sign of the "TIME". (for the Messsiah)

Lu 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

What "Sign" did Jesus condemn them for not being able to "READ"???

Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:

Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:

Have you figured out which "DAY" of this "weekly schedule" Jesus came into the world???


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved,....... "be not ignorant of this one thing,"


that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

There's a little more to the scriptures than what you discovered, so far. :thumbs:

http://i18.tinypic.com/66c6f51.jpg

Me4Him

You quote a lot of Scripture but none of them address, or are relevant to, the question asked in the OP:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

 

[OldRegular]

As for a day when the whole world will be at peace and there will be no more sin or evil? That day will not come until after the final judgment, when there are no more sinners or evil spirits, in the new heaven and new earth. That is when the kingdom of God will be manifest in the earth and the New Jerusalem will descend out of heaven to the earth and that is when Jesus will dwell with us face to face . . .

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them . . . and they shall see his face . . .” (excerpts from Revelation 21)

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Great points Pilgrimer!:thumbs:

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him

You quote a lot of Scripture but none of them address, or are relevant to, the question asked in the OP:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

No, I don't think I can, or anyone else for that matter. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

No, I don't think I can, or anyone else for that matter. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

I agree! Therefore, it appears that dispensational theology is based on a false premise. They dug themselves a hole and instead of climbing out they continue to dig deeper.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Therefore, it appears that dispensational theology is based on a false premise.

And what's that?

DT is based on the premise that God meant what he said. I don't think that is false, but perhaps you differ.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Well that is your opinion but it conflicts with scripture.

I believe my views are based on Scripture, on the doctrines that trump either “end times” or “prophecy,” and that’s the doctrines of the Gospel. Throughout all four Gospels, the only “kingdom” Jesus ever taught was the Kingdom of God. He never taught anything about an earthly kingdom. Not once did Jesus ever speak of liberating the Jews from Rome, but daily he tried to explain to them that, what he had come to liberate men from, Jew and Gentile, is the slavery to sin. Jesus struggled daily to try to get them to lift up their eyes and catch a glimpse of a kingdom of the heart, where the greatest powers on earth reign; love, hate, greed, mercy . . . Daily Jesus tried to explain to the Jews, not that he had come to set up the Jews in their own kingdom, but that he had come to set up God’s Kingdom in their hearts.

Nor did the Jewish Apostles ever teach any earthly kingdom. In fact, Paul’s letter to the Jewish Christians stated categorically that the “promised land” was not the earthly land of Israel, but a heavenly country.

And yet, in spite of all this testimony of Scripture about exactly what “kingdom” Jesus Christ came to establish on earth, you take a question the disciples asked and try to use that as a proof text to teach another “kingdom” that not only is not taught in the New Testament but one that is in fact antithetical to everything the Gospel teaches. Israel’s hope and glory does not rest in the things of this earth, including a land of dust and ashes, but in the things of heaven because those are the “things” that are eternal.

Jesus however did not dispute their question nor did He refute their question but affirmed the question as factual by stating the 'time' for that is in God's hands but yours is to worry about something else.

I disagree, he didn’t affirm their question, he simply told them God had not given them knowledge about the times and seasons of the land of Israel, which is born out by the fact that they did not realize that in a few brief years the whole nation of Israel would be destroyed, the Jewish people would be scattered into all the world, and everything that pertained to the Old Covenant would come to an end. The Apostle Paul is the only one who was given that depth of understanding, which even Peter admitted, saying that Paul’s teachings about these things were hard to understand:

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (doesn’t sound like Peter was looking for a millennial earthly kingdom of righteousness but the new heavens and new earth for those things to come to pass). Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless (Peter had a very different idea about the “peace” God promised than what Rabbinic Judaism had taught him). And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:13-16

I agree that you must be born-again or saved in order to comprehend the things God is doing and why. But not in order to believe. Scripture never validates such a claim but stand in contraction of it.

I never said you must be born again in order to believe, indeed, I am a Southern Pentecostal Baptist and my understanding is that you must believe in order to be born again. My point was that you must be born of the spirit in order to understand spiritual things, and since the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, it is simply not possible that the disciples really understood what Jesus had been trying to teach them about the Kingdom until they were born again.

The restoration of

Israel is absolutely in the purpose and plan of God just not now . . .

Allan, the Gospel is for Israel as well as for the nations, the same Gospel. The “restoration” God promised Israel was not to restore them to sovereignty, but to restore them to a right relationship with Himself through faith in the blood of Christ, to restore them, and all men, to the relationship man had with God before the fall, when God could come down and walk and talk with us in the cool of the day. Don’t you see? Rabbinic Jews don’t understand the first thing about what God’s “restoration” plan was, nor do they understand what God’s salvation means, they think it means being saved from their enemies or from some natural calamity. They don’t view salvation as being saved from sin because they think they are already right with God through the Law. So the only “restoration” they can conceive of is a restoration to the national glory and sovereignty they once had in the days of David and Solomon. To us Christians, the exaltation and glory of Jesus Christ was the purpose and plan of God, but to Rabbinic Judaism the messiah is simply a means to an end . . . the end being their own exaltation and glory.

and it was something Paul adamantly taught was to come 'later' after the time of the Gentiles.

Not so, Paul adamantly taught that “they are not all Israel which are of Israel” and the only “Israel” that counts with God is that Israel which is born after the Spirit, Christian Jews. They are the “all” that will be saved.

Actaully I'm not quite the country bumbkin you might think I am. I have all the works of Josephus and have studied (to varying degrees) the historical messianic views of Rabbinic Judaism.

I did not think you were a country bumpkin, I was simply responding to your repeated comments that I did not understand Jewish beliefs or know Jewish history.

However the Nation of Israel did not fall behind one man and become his army. They were looking for the messiah yes, but they, as a nation, did not cleave to one certain person and follow them. Many did but not as a unified nation. You are doing alot lopping and chopping to try to fit such history into biblical truth.

Apostate Israel did in fact follow after false messiahs and false prophets who did in fact lead them to destruction, just as the Scriptures from Moses to Jesus had foretold they would. It was the faithful Jews, the “elect” of Israel, the saved remnant, the 144,000 Christian Jews who “all” followed the true Messiah, Jesus Christ, and it was to them that all the promises were fulfilled. They were the ones who inherited the Kingdom, they were the ones who were born into and became citizens of the Kingdom where Jesus Christ sits enthroned in Jerusalem ruling and reigning over all things, they were the ones who found peace with God and they are the “Israel” who are clothed in white robes who stand before the throne of God worshipping and praising the Lamb. The Christian Jews, they are God’s “Israel,” they are the only seed who count as Abraham’s heirs, they, and they alone. The other Jews, apostate Israel, those who rejected God’s plan of salvation and refused to be reconciled by faith and restored to a right relationship with God . . . they don’t count, they are as Ishmael, cast out and disinherited, and as Esau who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage, they are the majority who would be lost, just as the Scripture foretold: “Though thy people Israel be as the sand of the seashore for multitude, yet a remnant shall be saved.” Moses, David, Paul

Are you a full preterist or an Amill?

and lastly - do you believe the Christ is coming still yet to come physically?

I am partial preterist and yes, I do believe in and look forward to the 2nd physical Advent of Christ, at the end of the world, when he returns in power and glory to judge the quick and the dead.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer