OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Me4Him
Your responses are totally inconsistent!!!!
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Messianic Kingdom
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
Me4Him
Your responses are totally inconsistent!!!!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Yoy are spinning like a top.
:tear:
Pilgrimer
Member
Pastor Larry said:
I wouldn't call the messianic doctrines of Rabbinic Judaism a lie, but rather error born of blindness. But it seems to me that Jesus answered your question himself, that it wasn't for these first Jewish Christians to know the times and the seasons of the national life of Israel. We, having the advantage of looking back to what in fact actually came to pass, we know and understand that it wasn't sovereignty that the coming of the Messiah brought Israel, but judgment and a national calamity that John the Baptist, Jesus and Paul all repeatedly warned would befall the nation that very generation. From all the Epistles only Paul writes of it, in his letter to the Christian Jews (Hebrews), among other places, where he went into detail about how the Sabbath, the priesthood, the sacrifices, the Day of Atonement, the Temple, the blood of sprinkling, the city of Jerusalem, the land of Israel, the Law of Moses, the entire Old Covenant and everything that pertained to it was a type and shadow of the New Covenant. He also taught that, the very fact that the New Covenant is spiritual in nature, and therefore eternal, makes it superior to the former covenant, which was earthly, and therefore temporal, already old and “ready to vanish away.” Paul’s writings show that he understood what the coming and work of Jesus Christ meant, not the restoration of Israel’s sovereignty, but the judgment and end of the “household of Moses,” which refers to the things of the Old Covenant.
Allan said:
Allan said:
That speaks of what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 17:10-13 (see also Mark 9:11-13) where he states that the foretold "restitution" (word actually used in Acts 3 and means “reconstitution”) was already being fulfilled by John the Baptist, and that it wasn't the sovereignty of Israel that would be restored, but "all things," a much broader concept than anything the scribes and Pharisees had ever envisioned with their Jewish-centric interpretations.
But Paul teaches the deepest meaning of this period in his letter to the Jewish Christians where he speaks of this "time of reformation:"
“The Holy Ghost thus signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” Hebrews 9:8-10
This time of restitution or reformation spoke of the transition from the Old Covenant to the New, when God restored all things in the sense that he reformed it all . . . or reconstituted it all . . . or formed it anew. Do the word study for yourself and you'll see all these various shades of meaning. The word is the same word we use it refer to the Protestant Reformation, but this was a reformation that involved not only a reformation of earthly institutions, but of spiriutal powers and rulers as well.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Pilgrimer
Member
Pastor Larry said:
We insist on the Gospels and the New Testament because they provide absolutely authoritative interpretation of the Old Testament. If your interpretation of the Old Testament is not in line with the what the New Testament teaches, then you have erred. And nowhere in either the Old Testament or the New Testament does it teach that God would restore Israel's sovereignty as a nation.
Allan said:
Nowhere does the New Testament say anything about a "restored kingdom." That only comes from the mouths of the disciples in the New Testament, as well as being used repeatedly by the scribes in the Talmudic literature. But is not Biblical.
Allan said:
Well, wouldn't it be rather meaningless for Jesus to say that the earthly kingdom of Israel was "at hand" since he was standing on it's soil, it had never gone anywhere. It was God's Kingdom of Heaven that was about to be ushered into the world with the atoning work of Christ at Calvary.
Allan said:
I disagree, I think you ignore the New Testament's interpretation of all these things.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Pilgrimer,
Well say, amen on Acts 3:21. :thumbs:
Also, Disciples asked Jesus of Acts 1:6 before Christ ascend unto heaven. They wanted to know when will the restore again the kingdom to Israel. They were seem still not understand the purpose of kingdom. Then, Christ told them, it is not for them to know the times and season when Israel will be restored kingdom again, it is God's hand of power to care it. But, Christ emphasis them that they will receive the power from the Holy Spirit pour upon them to preach gospel start with in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, then rest over the world. The kingdom is all about gospel of gospel to the world, not future physical Jewish nation to be restore again. -Acts 1:7-8.
Therefore, nowhere in the New Testament say that, there will be future restoration of Jewish Messianic nation of Israel again. Christ told Jews of Matt. 21:43, that the kingdom being taken away from them and given it to another nation, which speak of Gentiles. It already fulfilling in Romans 11:24-26 that the gospel is already spreading over the world, many Gentiles got saved and graft into Olive Tree jion believing Jews, became one tree. It is all about salvation in Jesus Christ, not natural physical or earthy Jewish nation.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Well say, amen on Acts 3:21. :thumbs:
Also, Disciples asked Jesus of Acts 1:6 before Christ ascend unto heaven. They wanted to know when will the restore again the kingdom to Israel. They were seem still not understand the purpose of kingdom. Then, Christ told them, it is not for them to know the times and season when Israel will be restored kingdom again, it is God's hand of power to care it. But, Christ emphasis them that they will receive the power from the Holy Spirit pour upon them to preach gospel start with in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, then rest over the world. The kingdom is all about gospel of gospel to the world, not future physical Jewish nation to be restore again. -Acts 1:7-8.
Therefore, nowhere in the New Testament say that, there will be future restoration of Jewish Messianic nation of Israel again. Christ told Jews of Matt. 21:43, that the kingdom being taken away from them and given it to another nation, which speak of Gentiles. It already fulfilling in Romans 11:24-26 that the gospel is already spreading over the world, many Gentiles got saved and graft into Olive Tree jion believing Jews, became one tree. It is all about salvation in Jesus Christ, not natural physical or earthy Jewish nation.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib said:
Israel rejected the things Jesus revealed than had been hidden since the foundation of the world,
and it left them up a blind alley.
Ho 6:2 After two days will he revive us: (Israel) in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Now, you're doing the same thing, only now you are without excuse,
Daniel/Disciples had things revealed to them they didn't and wasn't expected to understand until the "TIME OF THE END",
but at the time of the end the "WISE" will understand.
Pilgrimer
Member
Me4Him said:
Not all Israel rejected the Gospel, there was a "remnant" that was saved, and that remnant is all of Israel that God ever promised to save, beginning with it being prophesied to Abraham, then repeated in the Law and in the Prophets, as well as the New Testament: "Though thy people Israel be as the sand of the seashore for multitude, yet a remnant shall be saved." In other verses it says the Jews would be as the stars of the sky, and yet only a remnant would be saved. Look up all the uses of the word "remnant" in the Old and New Testaments that apply to the nation of Israel and see for yourself. God never promised to save "all" Israel, and that's not what Paul said. The promise from the very beginning was that only a remnant of the whole Jewish nation will ever be saved. It's the same thing Paul spoke of in Galatians 4:21-31 where he compares the Jews who were still under the Old Covenant with those who had entered into the New Covenant speaking of these things allegorically as the two covenants being represented by Sarah and Hagar, and that the "desolate" (Hagar) had many more children than the wife (Sarah) meaning there are far more Old Covenant Jews than there are New Covenant Jews. Paul quoted Isaiah 54:1 here, a wonderful Messianic passage speaking of God's household of faith (a remnant of the Jewish nation) being added to by Gentiles from every nation on earth. This is the consistent promise given throughout the Old and New Testaments about the salvation of Israel, and it rests not on one verse, but on multiple verses throughout the Bible.
Me4Him said:
Look at that verse in the context of that whole chaper, and the one before, and the one after, and you will get a very different idea about what timeframe that spoke of. It actually referred to the "revival" of the Jews by the preaching of the Gospel, what Peter in Acts 3 called the "times of refreshing," (the word "refreshing" here means "revival") quoting Isaiah 28:12 which speaks of the "rest" and the "refreshing" that were offered in the Gospel, but the vast majority of the Jews refused to hear. The word "refreshing" in both Hebrew and Greek literally means "recovery of breath" or "revival," another word we use frequently when we speak of the "spiritual awakening" of people by hearing and believing the Gospel. This is what Hosea spoke of, the Pentecostal "revival" of the Jewish people by the proclamation of the Gospel. I think Western Christianity is in dire need of "revival" ourselves. This is what I meant in my post to Allan when I pointed out that the permillennial view simply ignores the Gospel in terms of interpreting prophecy, as though the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the fulfillment of prophecy but some temporary alternative. Not so. The Gospel is what the Old Testament spoke of, and the Jewish nation was the first to experience Gospel revival, ergo, the Gospel was "to the Jew first, and then the Gentile," which makes the saved remannt of Jews (144,000) the "firstfruits" of the harvest of the Gospel, which in Biblical terms means the "cream of the crop" so to speak. The "firstfruits" of the harvest by law belonged to God. When you read about angels going out to gather the elect, think in terms of the soul harvest of the Gospel among that first generation of Jews, those "fields white unto harvest" Jesus sent the disciples into.
Me4Him said:
It seems to me that it is those who refuse to hear what the Gospel says about the promises of God to Israel that are "doing the same thing" and
ignoring the spiritual implications of Jesus' coming and his work by focusing the eye on the earthly things of the Old Covenant thereby missing entirely the heavenly things of the New Covenant which the Old symbolized. That was the same mistake the Rabbis made, so the premillennial literalists are not in good company.
Me4Him said:
The time of the end of what? The end of the world? The end of the Messianic (Christian) age? No, the time of the end of the Old Covenant, when Jesus Christ came and fulfilled that Old Covenant and then poured out the Holy Ghost to open the eyes of the spirit so men might be made wise to see and understand what the Scriptures had foretold all along but what no man could understand until it was all fulfilled, in the days of the coming of Messiah, in the last days, at the end, of the Old Covenant. And that's the Gospel truth.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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Pilgrimer said:
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:
When I said Israel rejected Jesus did you think I meant "ALL",
does the above verse mean "ALL"??
Scripture must be interpreted/kept "In context".
Yes it certainly does mean "Times of refeshing", such as the "Seventh day of rest", the MK.
Jesus was born/crucified in the evening to the "FOURTH DAY", three days in the future is the "SEVENTH DAY", 5th , 6th, 7th. (day=1000 years)
Jesus spent "TWO DAYS" (5th, 6th) with the "Samaritans" (Church) and "HER BRANCH" was restored near the end of the 6th day. (1948)
After two days.
Hosea prophecy is both "Spiritual" (resurrected in 72 hours) and "LITERAL", back on the earth "early in the morning" of the "THIRD thousand year DAY" (7th, "First resurrection")
Understanding the "Deep things" goes beyond those "words on paper".
Don't you see any connection between Bible prophecy and todays headlines??
Daniel, and scripture, said the time of the end was the tribulation period which Jesus ends by returning, I'm certain that hasn't occurred yet.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Me4Him said:
What was restored?
Me4Him said:
Now there is one, or is it two, that will curl your eyebrows:
1. Spiritual interpretation, three days is 72 hours.
2. Literal interpretation, one day is 1000 years.
Perhaps Me4Him is correct:
Me4Him said:
But he still can not answer the question posed in the OP!
Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?
Of course Me4Him has already conceded that in post #97
Pilgrimer
Member
Me4Him said:
The context of Romans 11:26 is Paul's teaching about the salvation of Israel which begins with Romans 9 where Paul tells us exactly who is and who is not counted as "Israel," and he makes it abundantly clear that the whole Jewish nation does not count as "Israel." Under the Old Covenant, all the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made up the nation of people called Israel. But under the New Covenant the only people who count as "Israel" is those descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are under the New Covenant . . . they and they alone are counted by God as "Israel," they are the "remnant" God promised to save.
Me4Him said:
Pardon? Jesus was crucified on Friday morning, the 6th day of the week, and was raised again on Sunday morning, the 1st day of the week.
Me4Him said:
In my world, there is no deeper "thing" than the Word of God which became flesh and dwelt among us. The "deep things" of the Bible is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not today's headlines, and certainly not some mathematical formula for understanding Scripture.
Me4Him said:
Yes, I do, but there is a difference. I recognize that many of the prophecies being compared to today's headlines were not about today's headlines, but were in fact headlines about the Gospel, about the 1st Coming of Christ, in the last days of the Old Covenant age, in which Jesus accomplished far more than the popular view envisions. When you discover all the prophecies that were fulfilled during the 1st Coming of Christ, then you begin to have some true inkling of what God has yet in store.
Me4Him said:
If you do not yet understand that Matthew 24 was about events that were to come to pass, and historically did come to pass, in the days of Jesus' 1st Coming, then you need to read carefully and prayerfully Luke 21, which is Luke's explanation to Gentile Christians of what Matthew wrote of to his fellow Jewish Christians. They both tell us about Jesus' teaching, but while Matthew uses the language of Old Testament prophecy for his Jewish readers, Luke just spells it all out.
The great tribulation was the destruction of the Jewish state in the days of the coming of Christ.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Pilgrimer said:
Actually, I think Pauls point in Romans 9 was that ALL of Israel was NEVER according to "physical descendants of Abraham". Esau was a descendant of Abraham, and Paul makes it very clear he was not of Israel, because he was not of the chosen remnant.
As far as the rest... "Israel" was NEVER according to the flesh. Both in the Old Covenant, and the New, "Israel" is determined by God's election, revealed by faith. "Israel" and the "assembly" (Church) are, and have always been, synonymous.
I agree with you in regards to your apparent disagreement with dispie theology, however...
Pilgrimer said:
So, you are a "preterist", now I know how to answer you.
And you might be surprised, I'm in 50% agreement with you.
:laugh: :laugh: One prophecy can have a "DUAL APPLICATION" or "Fulfillment",
A "Spiritual application" to cover Jesus's first coming, which preterist see,
and one "LITERAL" to cover his "Second coming", which preterist don't see.
Most of the church sees the application for the second coming, but not the first coming.
The promise to "send Eliajh" was "spiritually" fulfilled in John the Baptist,
however the "Literal" Elijah is coming as one of the two witnesses,
One prophecy, two application, and there are many more, here's a "visual aids" to a few of them.
http://i25.tinypic.com/1znaptj.jpg
Pilgrimer said:
You said only the "PHYSICAL" who are under the "New covenant",
How can you be under (in) a covenant when you are an "enemy" to that covenant??
And still be classified as "ELECT" by God???
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Jews/Israel) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Obviously, they can't be "born again", so the reason they are elect would have to be for some "PHYSICAL REASON", rather than "Spiritual",
Do you know what that would be????
Pilgrimer
Member
Me4Him said:
I am partial preterist, to be more precise.
Me4Him said:And you might be surprised, I'm in 50% agreement with you.
One prophecy can have a "DUAL APPLICATION" or "Fulfillment",
A "Spiritual application" to cover Jesus's first coming, which preterist see,
and one "LITERAL" to cover his "Second coming", which preterist don't see.
Most of the church sees the application for the second coming, but not the first coming.
The promise to "send Eliajh" was "spiritually" fulfilled in John the Baptist,
however the "Literal" Elijah is coming as one of the two witnesses,
One prophecy, two application, and there are many more, here's a "visual aids" to a few of them.
http://i25.tinypic.com/1znaptj.jpg
I can not agree that Jesus' 1st Coming fulfilled prophecy spiritually and the 2nd Coming will fulfill prophecy literally. Many, many Messianic prophecies were fulfilled literally by Jesus' 1st Coming, so I don't believe the answer is quite that simplistic.
But I do think there is some truth to the 1st Coming of Jesus bringing to pass all the spiritual blessings of God (which are after all heavenly and spiritual in nature to begin with) and the 2nd Coming will bring to pass all the earthly blessings, new bodies, a new heaven, and a new earth, no more sin, no more death, or pain, or weeping . . .
First is the redemption of the soul (the fruit of Jesus' 1st Coming), and afterward will be the redemption of the body (the fruit of Jesus' 2nd Coming), but only for those who have taken part in that first part.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Pilgrimer
Member
Me4Him said:
Me4Him said:
But what about Peter, and James, and John, and Matthew? What about Nicodemus, and old Simeon and Anna? And what about the 120 in the upper room, and Stephen who was stoned to death for the sake of the Gospel? And what about James, Jesus’ brother who was the head of the church at Jerusalem? And Simeon, Jesus’ cousin who took over when James was pushed off the top of the temple wall to his death for Christ’s sake? And what about the “multitudes” in Jerusalem, and throughout all Judaea, and Samaria, and Gallilee, and even to the uttermost parts of the earth in that Messianic generation who the New Testament tells us rejoiced when they heard the Gospel and believed, and were saved! Jews! And the countless numbers the past 2000 years now who have experienced the salvation the prophets spoke of, many of whom are my friends and associates. What about the man who wrote those words you quoted??? He was a Jew . . . they were all Jews. What? Do they not count? Why is it that in the premillennial world only the Jew who rejects Christ counts when you speak of the salvation of Israel?
The truth of the matter is that it is only those Jews who obey God that God counts as His own.
Now speaking of the Jews who were the enemies of the Gospel, who persecuted and arrested and imprisoned and executed their fellow Jews for naming the name of Jesus, attempting to destroy the fledgling faith at its inception? Those people who had been blessed with the unspeakable glory of having been the people through whom God has brought the world a Savior . . . those who, in the pride of their religious correctness, crucified the Lord of Glory thinking they did God a service . . . what happened to them?
Me4Him said:
Me4Him said:
“I say them, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew . . . at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace . . .” Romans 11:1-5
The “elect” are those Jews who are saved by grace.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Pilgrimer
Member
Havensdad said:
But there was no chosen remnant yet for Esau to be of. But back up to the beginning of that teaching by Paul.
Ishmael, born according to will of the flesh, was cast out and disinherited even though he was Abraham's firstborn son and by Law the heir; while Isaac, born according to the promise of God, even though the younger brother, became the heir. Then again, Esau was the firstborn, the older brother, and by Law the heir of the promise, and yet God chose Jacob, even before either of them were born or did any good or evil. What all that was about was an object lesson from God that God would choose among the seed of Abraham who would and who would not count as the heirs of the promise, so that salvation, even salvation for the Jew, would be by Grace, not by the Law.
Havensdad said:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
// Why is it that in the premillennial world only the Jew who rejects Christ counts when you speak of the salvation of Israel? //
I haven't read very many premills but I didn't read anybody who said anything close to that.
Saved Jews are part of the Gentile Age Church. Messanic Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Jesus is Lord. In the middle of the Tribulation Judgment Period (it is pre-millinnial) all Jews (and there will be a lot, individually must Accept Messiah Jesus as Saving Messiah.
I haven't read very many premills but I didn't read anybody who said anything close to that.
Saved Jews are part of the Gentile Age Church. Messanic Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Jesus is Lord. In the middle of the Tribulation Judgment Period (it is pre-millinnial) all Jews (and there will be a lot, individually must Accept Messiah Jesus as Saving Messiah.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
If the Church has been removed there will be no believers on earth; who will preach to the Jews.?:tear:
Getting back to the OP: Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?