Messianic Kingdom

[Pastor Larry]

A number of serious insurmountable exegetical issues here:

Daniel 9:27 have do nothing with Antichrist. This verse is context with verse 24 to 26 focus on Messiah-Jesus Christ, and Jerusalem.

Read again. There are two people: The Messiah who is cut off and then the prince of the people who is to come. These are, in the text, two different people. The second arises after the first has been cut off. It is not the same person in the text.

Verse 26 tells us, Messiah was cut off in the midst of the week by Calvary.

No it doesn't It says he was cut off "after 62 weeks." Then the 70th week starts after he is cut off.

Verse 27 tells us, the same person-Messiah makes new covenant with many as it fulfilled in Matt. 26:28, which speaks of Christ's blood-Calvary.

No it doesn't. The antecedent of "he" who makes the covenant is the prince of the people who is to come. It is not the Messiah.

Christ made covenant with many during in the midst of the week,

But Dan 9 says that the covenant was made at the beginning of the week, not in the middle of the week.

 

[Me4Him]

Me4HIM,

Daniel 9:27 have do nothing with Antichrist. This verse is context with verse 24 to 26 focus on Messiah-Jesus Christ, and Jerusalem.


Verse 27 tells us, the same person-Messiah makes new covenant with many as it fulfilled in Matt. 26:28, which speaks of Christ's blood-Calvary.


Daniel 9:26-27 have do nothing with supposed future seven year of Tribulation period. This passage focus on Jesus Christ and Calvary.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Pastor Larry has already addressed/pointed out the errors in most of your post, but let's take a closer look.

He shall confirm, do you know what "confirm" means, it means "NO FAITH", the things "HOPED FOR", and promised in the covenant had been "delivered", you have arrived in heaven.

Who is the convenant confirmed with, "MANY"...not "ALL", only the church is raptured, Israel enters the trib.

And for how long is the convenant with "MANY".... "ONE WEEK", (lamb's marriage supper)

Jesus returns at the end of the week and then the convenant is confirmed to "ALL". (Cana Marriage)

You won't understand the scripture until you get everything in the order in which it ocurrs, dispensations is a methods of describing that order.

 

[HankD]

Dispensationalists argue that Jesus Christ came to offer the earthly Messianic Kingdom, that His offer was rejected and that He instituted the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, instead. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? Or am I just:BangHead: :BangHead:

Hi OldRegular,

I am somewhat of a "dispensationalist" because I adhere to the core definition of a "dispensation" that God has dealt in differing ways of government and economies thoughtout the ages with man.

But I hate labels because there are so many canned ad hominems and barbs which are really from the evil one. You know, he makes the darts and we throw them at each other.

Most obviously The Law under Moses vs. the grace of God to His Church(es) being of differing government and economies.

your question

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

In actuality is akin to the old barb "Are you still beating your wife?"

It can't be answered not because there is no Scripture. The fact is that the Nation of Israel already had possession of the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God when Christ was here, He being the true King who would sit in the earthly throne of David being his promised Seed.

Exodus 19:
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Chronicles 17
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

1 Chronicles 28
4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.

1 Chronicles 29
10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.
11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.
12 Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.

2 Chronicles 2
12 Huram said moreover, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the LORD, and an house for his kingdom.

So, rather than offer the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God which they already possessed He threatened them to take it away and give it to another "nation" ...

Matthew
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

This IMO caused the disciples to "jump the gun" and ask the question:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

End of part 1

HankD

 

[HankD]

Begin Part 2

Now who is this other nation, well it probably is the Gentile nation which for the most part (except in the earliest history of the Church) are the building blocks of the Church, the present earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God on earth.

Or possibly the redeemed and sealed Israel (signified by the 144,000) during the time of "Jacob's Trouble" (a.k.a The Tribulation-Great Tribulation) of the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
I prefer the former. The 144,000 signifying the inception of restored Israel.

In other threads Scriptures were shown in which (IMO) Jesus promises that the Nation of Israel will be restored and that the Apostles simply "jumped the gun" with this Acts 1 question.

This when He said:

Matthew 24
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Repeated by Paul
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

By the way modern "dispensationalism" had an earlier birth than Ms. MacDonald. My studies have led to the Society of Jesus (Jesuits).

Do Googles on Francisco Ribera and The Beliar Myth.

While I believe modern dispensationism is somewhat flawed I follow after dispensationlism to a degree.

Also I agree that this term "dispensation" is probably not a good one anymore seeing the bad press it has received because of the overzealousness of some of the adherents.

I also agree that the method of the governing and economy is more centered in God's Covenants (Noahic, Solomonic, Davidic, etc) However when I say that people ALWAYS jump to the erroneous conclusion that I follow after Covenant Theology which is an entirely different entity, so I am content (somewhat) with the label of "dispensationlist".
In terms of a failure by God, we all know that He cannot fail.
We fail. But even in our failure it is part of His Divine Plan for humanity:

Acts 4
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:


and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Where does this verse fit into scripture and what does it describe???

You tell me what it describes, you quoted it!!!

But for anyone to think that Daniel 9:27 has anything to do with God pulling the Church out of the world, with its mission incomplete, is exactly what I mean by dispensational fiction.

Bu the way DeafPosttrib did as good a job explaining Daniel 9:27 as I have read or heard.

 

[HankD]

A Post script:

Now as to the Jew first and then the Greek.

This was the modus operandi of the Apostles. Christ had commanded them to go starting where they were and then unto all nations.

Paul in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles used this technique.
Even when going to gentile nations he would go to the synagogues, preach, then be beaten; oft time nearly to the point of death.

So, in affect the message of the grace of God through the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ (not the messianic kingdom) was indeed offered to the Jew first and then the Greek.


Acts 13
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

However, Paul through inspiration warns the Gentiles in his Epistle to the Romans not to be proud, He will graft them in again (or at least He is able and seems to be His intent).

While it is true that Christ Himself in His humanity was a Jew as were the Apostles, the church is not Judaism. It cannot be as the governing rules and economy are altogether different. New wine in old bottles, etc…

This is illustrated in a practical way in Acts 15…

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
…
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
…
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


HankD

 

[HankD]

But for anyone to think that Daniel 9:27 has anything to do with God pulling the Church out of the world, with its mission incomplete, is exactly what I mean by dispensational fiction.

For the sake of the debate, I will use the subjunctive mode.

If and when the Church is pulled out of the world (or perhaps as a better phrase completely separated from it) it will not be because it's mission is incomplete but complete. It will not be part of the wrath to come.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of thetares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

In the parabolic form Jesus says thus:

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first thetares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The question is where and what is "my barn"?

HankD​

 

[OldRegular]

Pastor Larry has already addressed/pointed out the errors in most of your post, but let's take a closer look.

He shall confirm, do you know what "confirm" means, it means "NO FAITH", the things "HOPED FOR", and promised in the covenant had been "delivered", you have arrived in heaven.

Who is the convenant confirmed with, "MANY"...not "ALL", only the church is raptured, Israel enters the trib.

And for how long is the convenant with "MANY".... "ONE WEEK", (lamb's marriage supper)

Jesus returns at the end of the week and then the convenant is confirmed to "ALL". (Cana Marriage)

You won't understand the scripture until you get everything in the order in which it ocurrs, dispensations is a methods of describing that order.

More dispensational fiction.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Pastor Larry]

But for anyone to think that Daniel 9:27 has anything to do with God pulling the Church out of the world, with its mission incomplete, is exactly what I mean by dispensational fiction.

Do you know any dispensationalist who believes that the church's mission will be incomplete at the Rapture? I do not. Everyone I know of says that the church's mission will be complete at the rapture.

I can't help but think you are making up but another straw man to destroy.

I think perhaps the fiction is that there are dispensationalists that believe the church will be pulled out of the world with her mission incomplete, but I could be wrong. I will await your citation of dispensationalists who believe this.

 

[OldRegular]

Sorry for the delay but I got caught up in "the rapture"

Original Post by OldRegular
But for anyone to think that Daniel 9:27 has anything to do with God pulling the Church out of the world, with its mission incomplete, is exactly what I mean by dispensational fiction.

Response by HankD
For the sake of the debate, I will use the subjunctive mode.

If and when the Church is pulled out of the world (or perhaps as a better phrase completely separated from it) it will not be because it's mission is incomplete but complete. It will not be part of the wrath to come.

I believe that the Church includes all the redeemed of all time and that redemption is only through Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of those who believe:

Hebrews 9:24-28
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice [verse 28] that Jesus Christ shall appear only a second time; not a second time [the rapture] and a third time seven years later.

Response by HankD
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of thetares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

In the parabolic form Jesus says thus:

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The question is where and what is "my barn"?

HankD

The parable and particularly its explanation are to me a perfect picture of the return of Jesus Christ in power and and great glory [as described in Matthew 24:29 -31; 1 Thessalonians 4:13 -18; 1 Corinthians 15:50 -56; Revelation 19:11-21; 20:9-15; and particularly John 5:28, 29].

There is one return of Jesus Christ at the end of time as we know it. There will be a resurrection of all the dead. The redeemed will be separated from the unredeemed as described in the parable of the tares and its subsequent explanation, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment.

As noted in verses 30, 40-42 above, the tares, those who are unbelievers are burned, cast into the furnace, or, as stated in Revelstion 20:14, cast into the lake of fire. Those who are the redeemed, referred to as the wheat, those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are gathered into the barn. Now what is the barn? It is the eternal dwelling place of all those who constitute the redeemed of all time, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. They will be in the presence of the Triune God and Scripture tells us that will be in the New Heavens and New Earth [Revelation 21, 22].

 

[HankD]

Sorry for the delay but I got caught up in "the rapture"

I believe that the Church includes all the redeemed of all time and that redemption is only through Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of those who believe:

Hebrews 9:24-28
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Notice [verse 28] that Jesus Christ shall appear only a second time; not a second time [the rapture] and a third time seven years later.



The parable and particularly its explanation are to me a perfect picture of the return of Jesus Christ in power and and great glory [as described in Matthew 24:29 -31; 1 Thessalonians 4:13 -18; 1 Corinthians 15:50 -56; Revelation 19:11-21; 20:9-15; and particularly John 5:28, 29].

There is one return of Jesus Christ at the end of time as we know it. There will be a resurrection of all the dead. The redeemed will be separated from the unredeemed as described in the parable of the tares and its subsequent explanation, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment.

As noted in verses 30, 40-42 above, the tares, those who are unbelievers are burned, cast into the furnace, or, as stated in Revelstion 20:14, cast into the lake of fire. Those who are the redeemed, referred to as the wheat, those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are gathered into the barn. Now what is the barn? It is the eternal dwelling place of all those who constitute the redeemed of all time, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. They will be in the presence of the Triune God and Scripture tells us that will be in the New Heavens and New Earth [Revelation 21, 22].

OK, but you missed at least two things taught in the Book of Revelation, the Great Tribulation and the Millennium

Notice [verse 28] that Jesus Christ shall appear only a second time; not a second time [the rapture] and a third time seven years later.

OK but there are those dispensationalist (minority) who suggest that the “rapture” or more correctly phrased the “gathering” of the Church will be not be to heaven but in an undisclosed place to be excluded and protected from the “Wrath of God” which is to come upon the whole world. And that not by Christ in person but by angels whom He will send.

Luke 3
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Garner – same word as “barn” (Grk., Apotheke)
In the historical time of Christ obviously there were no machines to harvest and to process the grain. The harvest could take several days or even weeks if the “gleaning” is included.

The garner was a temporary shelter built in the harvest field to protect the grain from the elements, animals, etc…

Notice also that in the Matthew 13 passage the “tares” are not immediately burned but the order was “to bind” them in the field later (admittedly a supposition) to be burned in preparation for the harvest.

Also He Himself does not come but

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Presumably they gather the wheat into His barn as well.

End Part 1

HankD

 

[HankD]

Part 2

Others dispensationalists (majority) believe that the “rapture” (rapturo from the Latin Vulgate) to heaven will be a secret coming, the only evidence of which will be the missing Christians, therefore not properly called His Second Coming or Appearing but "The Rapture" or "snatching away" prior to His Second Coming.

There are also those who divide the Tribulation into two parts: The Tribulation (generally Revelation 4-15) and The Great Tribulation a.k.a The Wrath of God (Revelation 16-19). The "saints" being removed or hidden from the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I believe that the Church includes all the redeemed of all time and that redemption is only through Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of those who believe:

Yes, I understand and we have already been through this. This is properly called the “Bride” of Christ also know as the “New Jerusalem” which you mention later.

Revelation 21
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Both the Church and Israel are represented in the Bride of Christ.

As to the Great Tribulation and the Millennium, the Church has always held beliefs concerning the times and duration of these "dispensations”.

While a full compilation of the “dispensations” have only appeared modernly, these beliefs were always held in one form or another by the Church and the dispensational method of the interpretation of Scripture, although perhaps not specifically called by that name.

But the elements of dispensationalism did not originate with the Jesuits, Darby or Mary MacDonald, these are those who attempted to compile and coordinate them in a systematic way.

These elements of belief and their variations were held through the ages by orthodox and otherwise:

So, I don't think it's proper to call these variations "dispensational fiction". Rather an attempt at understanding the difficult things concerning prophecy and the end times.


HankD

 

[EdSutton]

Though I am amillennial ...

I would have never guessed!

Let me repeat that.



Ed

 

[HankD]

Here is an example from Cyril of Jerusalem (circa AD 380) of dispensational thought:

1)? But, let those of us who are fearful provide for our own safety; and those who are of a good courage, stand fast: for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be(2). But thanks be to God who hath confined the greatness of that tribulation to a few days; for He says, But for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened(3); and Antichrist shall reign for three years and a half only. We speak not from apocryphal books, but from Daniel; for he says, And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time(4). A time is the one year in which his coming shall for a while have increase; and the times are the remaining two years of iniquity, making up the sum of the three years; and the half a time is the six months. And again in another place Daniel says the same thing, And he swear by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, and times, and half a time(5). And some peradventure have referred what follows also to this; namely, a thousand two hundred and ninety days(6); and this, Blessed is he that endureth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days(7). For this cause we must hide ourselves and flee; for perhaps we shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of Man be come(8).

From CATECHETICAL LECTURES, LECTURES XIV TO XVI

While Baptist hold that the Scripture is the Final Authority of faith and practice, this writing illustrates that the Church has it times past very often illucidated scriptural truth concerning what is now commonly called "dispensational".

The Church Fathers are found in many places of the public domain and may be quoted freely.

FWIW, Here is a "freeware" down-loadable HTML site of the writings of the Early Church Fathers:

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/ecfidx.htm

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

OK, but you missed at least two things taught in the Book of Revelation, the Great Tribulation and the Millennium

The Millennium is mentioned in Chapter 20 of Revelation. The first 10 verses of that chapter are a recapitulation of events that have already been described in Revelation. We are currently in the millennium and tribulation has always been the heritage of the Church.

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

John 15:18. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

As for Revelation speaking of the Great Tribulation just where is that?

OK but there are those dispensationalist (minority) who suggest that the “rapture” or more correctly phrased the “gathering” of the Church will be not be to heaven but in an undisclosed place to be excluded and protected from the “Wrath of God” which is to come upon the whole world. And that not by Christ in person but by angels whom He will send.

I have heard some goofy things from dispensationalists but this beats all!:laugh:

Can you or anyone tell me why the Children of God would need to be, or in fact could be, protected from the wrath of God by angels. Who is sovereign in the universe God or angels? Scripture tells us:

1Thessalonians 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The Children of God are not objects of His wrath. They may be subjected to His discipline but not His wrath.

I have already given my understanding of the parable of the wheat and tares which I believe to be consistent with other Scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

Here is an example from Cyril of Jerusalem (circa AD 380) of dispensational thought:



From CATECHETICAL LECTURES, LECTURES XIV TO XVI

While Baptist hold that the Scripture is the Final Authority of faith and practice, this writing illustrates that the Church has it times past very often illucidated scriptural truth concerning what is now commonly called "dispensational".

The Church Fathers are found in many places of the public domain and may be quoted freely.

FWIW, Here is a "freeware" down-loadable HTML site of the writings of the Early Church Fathers:

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/ecfidx.htm

HankD

Hank

When you can show me from the writings of the early Church fathers something akin to the following then perhaps I will believe that dispensationalism is not the brainchild of Darby.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity”. [Quoted by Ryrie in Dispensationalism, page 39]

Charles C. Ryrie in Chapter 4 of Dispensationalism argues that the beginning of dispensational thought is much earlier. He asserts that Pierre Poiret, a French philosopher and mystic, published a rudimentary system of dispensations in 1687 and that Isaac Watts [1674-1748] developed an outline of dispensations that essentially paralleled that in the Scofield Bible, with the exception of the millennium. There is no indication, however, that either of these men believed that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church which according to Ryrie [page 39] is the basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist. The question is not whether there is a distinction between the nation Israel and the Church, there obviously is. The concern is the relationship between true or spiritual Israel, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23], and the Church.

Notice that even Ryrie does not go back to the early Church fathers.

 

[HankD]

As for Revelation speaking of the Great Tribulation just where is that?

I don’t to disappoint the KJVO folks but Revelation 7:14 says thus in the New KJV:
NKJ Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

As does the ASV, NIV, NAS, RSV and others because the definite article is present in the Greek text th/j qli,yewj th/j mega,lhj.
Presumably this refers to those persons in Revelation 2:22 with others (perhaps).

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankD
OK but there are those dispensationalist (minority) who suggest that the “rapture” or more correctly phrased the “gathering” of the Church will be not be to heaven but in an undisclosed place to be excluded and protected from the “Wrath of God” which is to come upon the whole world. And that not by Christ in person but by angels whom He will send.

I have heard some goofy things from dispensationalists but this beats all!

Petra. This is mostly a messianic Christian notion, although in the early church it was not thought to be an exclusively Jewish place of hiding, but Christian.

URL: http://ldolphin.org/kingdom/ch11.html Far fetched and I don't believe it myself.

Can you or anyone tell me why the Children of God would need to be, or in fact could be, protected from the wrath of God by angels. Who is sovereign in the universe God or angels? Scripture tells us:

1Thessalonians 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The Children of God are not objects of His wrath. They may be subjected to His discipline but not His wrath.

Did you read my post? I said the same thing.
We are not to be the object of His wrath. In fact we could IMO (just a theory mind you) be standing right next to a person who is the object of our Father’s wrath during the Great Tribulation and be completely untouched. However God does whatever He wants (you know that) and if He wants to use angels to protect us in whatever manner He wishes, that's His business.

I have already given my understanding of the parable of the wheat and tares which I believe to be consistent with other Scripture.

That’s good my brother, I’m glad you have what you consider a scriptural view (and you may just be right). And you know it’s very close to mine.

Even if it were not, you took the time and diligence to develop it.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Hank

When you can show me from the writings of the early Church fathers something akin to the following then perhaps I will believe that dispensationalism is not the brainchild of Darby.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity”. [Quoted by Ryrie in Dispensationalism, page 39]

Charles C. Ryrie in Chapter 4 of Dispensationalism argues that the beginning of dispensational thought is much earlier. He asserts that Pierre Poiret, a French philosopher and mystic, published a rudimentary system of dispensations in 1687 and that Isaac Watts [1674-1748] developed an outline of dispensations that essentially paralleled that in the Scofield Bible, with the exception of the millennium. There is no indication, however, that either of these men believed that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church which according to Ryrie [page 39] is the basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist. The question is not whether there is a distinction between the nation Israel and the Church, there obviously is. The concern is the relationship between true or spiritual Israel, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23], and the Church.

Notice that even Ryrie does not go back to the early Church fathers.

That's a tall order OR, not because it can't be found among the writings of the Early Church Fathers but just within their writings apart from the later Jesuit writings, etc) exist at least 20,000 pages of text.

In addition, I don't follow after every jot and tittle of the modern dispensationalists and I am undecided about many things.

I can probably come up with something but I'll need some time.

I have a little time because we are snowed in here in the Seattle area, after the rains come, well that's another story.

HankD

 

[Amy.G]

I don’t to disappoint the KJVO folks but Revelation 7:14 says thus in the New KJV:
NKJ Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

As does the ASV, NIV, NAS, RSV and others because the definite article is present in the Greek text th/j qli,yewj th/j mega,lhj.
Presumably this refers to those persons in Revelation 2:22 with others (perhaps).

HankD[/FONT][/COLOR]

Interesting. I don't want to derail, but would like to ask what set of manuscripts contain the article "the"?

It is not in the KJV, Bishops or Coverdale. It seems to only appear in the newer versions, which makes me think that it is in the Alexandrian line, but not the TR. Do you know?

The absence of the article certainly changes the meaning.

 

[HankD]

Interesting. I don't want to derail, but would like to ask what set of manuscripts contain the article "the"?

It is not in the KJV, Bishops or Coverdale. It seems to only appear in the newer versions, which makes me think that it is in the Alexandrian line, but not the TR. Do you know?

The absence of the article certainly changes the meaning.

The definite article of Revelation 7:14 is present in all manuscript families including Wescott and Hort, Scrivener's 1894 (underlines the KJV), and the Byzantine Majority Texts: (The TR).

HankD