Messianic Kingdom

[HankD]

If anyone is wondering how a text developed in 1894 underlines the 1611 KJV, here is the explanation.

Scrivener recognized that the English text of the 1611 didn't exactly match any of the current Greek tests which the orthodox Church used (as opposed to Alexandrian).

But, he did NOT make up the Greek from the English.

He made, pieced together a quilt (sort of) of the current texts that the 1611 translators had at their disposal (Stephanus, Beza, Eliziver, etc).

Where it was apparent the KJV translators use Stephanus he used Stephanus, Beza, Beza, Erasmus, Erasmus, etc...

I don't remember about 1 John 5:7 but I think he used a 14th century Greek manuscript which contained the Comma.

So His 1894 edition nearly and exactly matches the English text of 1611 (I really don't know if he included any of the 1769 revisions).
Some of you scholars correct me if I'm wrong.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So when was the great tribulation. We read in Matthew 24:15-22 as follows:

15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

In this passage jesus Christ is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem. Christians were warned to flee Jerusalem and some escaped. The tribulation Christians endured at the hands of Rome is well known. I presented the following information on an earlier post.

On the Holocaust of*Christians

July 9, 2008 at 1:21 pm (Church)

Chuck Colson has some interesting and eye-opening figures on the holocaust of Christians in the twentieth century. The article itself is dated 2002.*The estimate is that 45,000,000 Christians have been martyred in the twentieth century. According to the same estimate, the total number of Christians martyred since the time of Christ is around 70,000,000.

I*want to point out a couple of things. Firstly, such numbers, as Colson points out, do not diminish the horror of the Holocaust in the least. However, Jews should not think that they are the only ones who have been persecuted in the twentieth century. Christians have lost more than 7 times as many lives as the Jews lost in the Holocaust. Not a fact that you will hear much about in the news (nor do I particularly want it to be reported. It is not as if Christians need to brag about being persecuted).

The other thing I wish to point out is that Colson’s conclusion is not how we should pray for the church. Indeed, the Chinese church has told us differently.*Why*should we pray that persecution should be*eliminated against the church, when persecution is something we are told that we should expect? Not only that, but persecution is good for the church, eliminating nominalist “Christians.” I am not saying that persecution is a good thing, in and of itself. I am very thankful that I am not being persecuted for my faith. However, God overturns evil for*good constantly, as He has been doing all throughout history. I am raising the point only to encourage us to pray for the persecuted church. And this is how we should pray: that the church remain faithful in its witness, not compromising the truth of the Gospel for comfort’s sake.
Source:http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/on-the-holocaust-of-christians/


My question to you: Is the passage in Revelation referring to a specific period of tribulation or the tribulation that Jesus Christ states will always be the lot of Christians?

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[OldRegular]

Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So when was the great tribulation. We read in Matthew 24:15-22 as follows:

15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

In this passage jesus Christ is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem. Christians were warned to flee Jerusalem and some escaped. The tribulation Christians endured at the hands of Rome is well known. I presented the following information on an earlier post.

On the Holocaust of*Christians

July 9, 2008 at 1:21 pm (Church)

Chuck Colson has some interesting and eye-opening figures on the holocaust of Christians in the twentieth century. The article itself is dated 2002.*The estimate is that 45,000,000 Christians have been martyred in the twentieth century. According to the same estimate, the total number of Christians martyred since the time of Christ is around 70,000,000.

I*want to point out a couple of things. Firstly, such numbers, as Colson points out, do not diminish the horror of the Holocaust in the least. However, Jews should not think that they are the only ones who have been persecuted in the twentieth century. Christians have lost more than 7 times as many lives as the Jews lost in the Holocaust. Not a fact that you will hear much about in the news (nor do I particularly want it to be reported. It is not as if Christians need to brag about being persecuted).

The other thing I wish to point out is that Colson’s conclusion is not how we should pray for the church. Indeed, the Chinese church has told us differently.*Why*should we pray that persecution should be*eliminated against the church, when persecution is something we are told that we should expect? Not only that, but persecution is good for the church, eliminating nominalist “Christians.” I am not saying that persecution is a good thing, in and of itself. I am very thankful that I am not being persecuted for my faith. However, God overturns evil for*good constantly, as He has been doing all throughout history. I am raising the point only to encourage us to pray for the persecuted church. And this is how we should pray: that the church remain faithful in its witness, not compromising the truth of the Gospel for comfort’s sake.
Source:http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/on-the-holocaust-of-christians/


My question to you: Is the passage in Revelation referring to a specific period of tribulation or the tribulation that Jesus Christ states will always be the lot of Christians?

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I like the KJVs best: // ... came out of great tribulation ... //

-----------------------------------
Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:

---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
(some 40 million so far)
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: Judgement for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

"tribulations" in nKJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition>
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Most likely:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.

These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own in the Rapture2 (Resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1) before the Tribulation. Chapter 7 of Revelation is a view of first the 144,000 Messanic Jews and the rest of those Church Age Saints who escaped the great Tribulation by being taken out of the world from it.

Until then, I pray those called by the Lord to suffer for Him will be blessed with glorious type two tribulations and martyrdom. I know I'm not called to the gift of martyrdom - but some of you others might be.

 

[OldRegular]

At the risk of breaking a Forum rule [double posting?] I am going to post the following in response to ED.

Understanding of Scripture is attained only by diligent study and that under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That being said it seems that dispensationalism adds unnecessary confusion to the understanding of Scripture. For example consider the simplicity of the Baptist Faith and Message approach to the doctrine of Last Things compared to all that is posted on this Forum:

"God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord."

I believe that when the last of the elect [The last of those whose names were written in The Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world.] is brought into the household of Faith, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ,

1. Jesus Christ will return in power and great glory;Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, 2 Peter 3, Revelation 11, 19 to name a few

2. There will be a resurrection of the saved and the lost;John 5:28, 29

3. Those who are in Christ and still living will be changed in a moment in a twinkling of the eye, receiving their incorruptible body;1 Corinthians 15

4. All will stand before Jesus Christ as Judge [the Great White Throne Judgment]; Revelation 20

5. The books will be opened, including the Book of Life; Revelation 20

6. Those who are in Adam will be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan; Revelation 20

7. Those who are in Jesus Christ will enter the New Heavens and New Earth to dwell in the presence of the Triune God throughout eternity. Revelation 21, 22

 

[HankD]

So when was the great tribulation. We read in Matthew 24:15-22 as follows:

15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

My question to you: Is the passage in Revelation referring to a specific period of tribulation or the tribulation that Jesus Christ states will always be the lot of Christians?

Good morning OR,

It is morning here in the Seattle area of the world with about 20 inches of snow on the ground where I am in one of the Pacific range foothills. Snow is unusual here west of the Cascade Mountains and this amount has tied up the Puget Sound pretty well. I had to de-ice my satellite dish this AM to get on the web.

Anyway, to answer your question, it is my view that the passage in Matthew 24 refers to both the sack of Jerusalem around AD70 and the end time events just before the return of Christ and the end of this world (age).

And yes, Christians have had great tribulation apart from what Revelation 7:14 literally calls The Tribulation, The Great One

But Matthew 24 is specifically to the citizens of Jerusalem and Israel and the Roman conquest and an answer to the question of the disciples concerning three things:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

In verse 27 Jesus introduces the subject of His Second Coming in connection to the end of the world:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It seems to me that this Great Tribulation has two parts and they have to be sorted out, one part fulfilled when Titus sacked Jerusalem and the other at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ which will be accompanied by signs which have not yet occurred.

Now I know that many allegorize and/or say that these things have already happened, but yet we have not seen “all the tribes of the earth mourn” or the “sign of the Son of Man” in heaven. No amount of allegory can explain those events IMO.

In addition we have a similar passage in Revelation:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This also has a connection to Zechariah 12

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

OR, I don’t believe these are shadows of things that might have been or an allegory but actually things to come.

The Nation of Israel in my view from the Scriptures, will one day be awakened by God and they will call upon their Messiah Jesus Christ.


HankD

 

[HankD]

When you can show me from the writings of the early Church fathers something akin to the following then perhaps I will believe that dispensationalism is not the brainchild of Darby.

I'm trying OldReg, but to be honest most early Church fathers seemed to believe that Israel has been permanently set aside by God.

But from past research, I do remember that there were those who felt that restoration was at least possible from Romans 11.

My problem is that I only have access to an HTML copy of the church fathers and the search engine is very limited.

In addition, it’s been a few years since I have done any church fathers research.

So, I will grant by default that you are correct. In modern times the restoration of the Nation of Israel has been the emphasis of prophetic studies particularly in the area of “dispensationalism” with names like Darby, Ryrie, Schofield, Gaebelein, Walvoord, Larken...

The scope of authors and times is much wider than Nelson Darby as has been shown before.

Dispensationalism has only modernly been systematized and that with many conflicts as in other bodies of belief which would be expected especially in the area of eschatology.

Obviously 1947 have a great impact upon this area of discussion.

This perhaps triggering a resurgence of prophetic interest concerning Israel.

Of course this has been part of the history of the Church(es):, issues come, issues go, the results are lasting or not, good or not so good.

e.g. The Reformation, Neo-orthodoxy, neo-evangelicalism, The charismatic movement, etc, etc, etc…

End part 1

HankD

 

[HankD]

In the meantime here are some passages of Scripture that in my estimation are relevant:

Deuteronomy 4
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;
38 To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day.
39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

KJV Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

HankD

 

[Ed Edwards]

HankD : // ... it is my view that the passage in Matthew 24 refers to both the sack of Jerusalem around AD70 and the end time events just before the return of Christ and the end of this world (age). //

Amen, Brother HankD -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

The Nation of Israel in my view from the Scriptures, will one day be awakened by God and they will call upon their Messiah Jesus Christ.

I doubt that Israel as a nation will ever be awakened, however, Israelites, like all sinner, unless they are awakened by God.s will never turn to God

 

[OldRegular]

This thread has strayed far from the original OP which has never been answered. I will repeat, hopeful for an answer:

Dispensationalists argue that Jesus Christ came to offer the earthly Messianic Kingdom, that His offer was rejected and that He instituted the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, instead. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? Or am I just:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

 

[Amy.G]

This thread has strayed far from the original OP which has never been answered. I will repeat, hopeful for an answer:

Dispensationalists argue that Jesus Christ came to offer the earthly Messianic Kingdom, that His offer was rejected and that He instituted the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, instead. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? Or am I just:BangHead: :BangHead:

Well, I don't think you want my answer OR, but the answer is it can't be found in scripture. Jesus did not come to set up an earthly kingdom.

And yes, you are :BangHead: .

:laugh:


Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
This thread has strayed far from the original OP which has never been answered. I will repeat, hopeful for an answer:

Dispensationalists argue that Jesus Christ came to offer the earthly Messianic Kingdom, that His offer was rejected and that He instituted the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, instead. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? Or am I just:BangHead:

Response by Amy G
Well, I don't think you want my answer OR, but the answer is it can't be found in scripture. Jesus did not come to set up an earthly kingdom.

And yes, you are :BangHead: .

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Amy G
That is the correct answer, I just want dispensationalists to admit it. One did about half way through but then took up the cudgel again!
__________________

 

[Pastor Larry]

The evidence has been given many times. Knocking your head against a wall has caused damage so that apparently you don't understand it.

When Jesus said "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" it was a reference to the kingdom that was talked about in the OT that was unmistakeably earthly. When Jesus told the Pharisees "the kingdom is in your midst," it was a reference to the fact that they could look around them on the earth and see the kingdom. I don't recall you ever dealing with either of these, though perhaps I have missed it.

Furthermore, regardless of the words that you find in the mouth of Jesus (and remember that we do not have them all), the OT is inspired Scripture as well. It means what it says. And in the OT, the kingdom was an earthly kingdom. Surely you don't dispute that (although perhaps you do, given the other things you dispute). The kingdom is the same.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Larry,

When Jesus said "The Kingdom of heaven is at hand" it was a refernece to the Kingdom that was talked about in the OT that was unmistakeably earthly

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That is not what Jesus means. He never say it is an earhtly.

When after Christ was baptized, then Christ begun his ministry, he started to preach, and said, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matt. 4:17.

He was not preaching about Messianic or Jewish earthly kingdom. He was preaching about the GOSPEL - good news.

Pharisees came to Jesus, and asked him, "when the kingdom of God should come?" - Luke 17:20. Then, Christ said to them, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:20-21.

Christ said to them that the kingdom of God is not earthly or physical. It is spiritual. Pharisees thought the kingdom of God will come to earth - physically and earhtly.

Same with today's many Jews still believe that their Messiah would come to earth to set the kingdom in modern Jerusalem and to be world's capitol - literally and physical.

But, they are still blind. They forget that Jesus already came to earth ans their Messiah, did brought the kingdom of God/heaven to Israel. It is all about gospel.

In another word, in John 3:3,5, Christ says that, we must be born again, or we cannot enter the kingdom of God. "The kingdom of God" is pictured as eternal life-salvation.

The kingdom of God is already midst within us 2000 years ago. It is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Nowhere in the four gospels say that Christ did offer to Jews of earthly political or government. He just brought the kingdom of God to Israel is all about gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Amy.G]

Larry,



Whoa, whoa, whoa. That is not what Jesus means. He never say it is an earhtly.

When after Christ was baptized, then Christ begun his ministry, he started to preach, and said, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matt. 4:17.

He was not preaching about Messianic or Jewish earthly kingdom. He was preaching about the GOSPEL - good news.

Pharisees came to Jesus, and asked him, "when the kingdom of God should come?" - Luke 17:20. Then, Christ said to them, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU." - Luke 17:20-21.

Christ said to them that the kingdom of God is not earthly or physical. It is spiritual. Pharisees thought the kingdom of God will come to earth - physically and earhtly.

Same with today's many Jews still believe that their Messiah would come to earth to set the kingdom in modern Jerusalem and to be world's capitol - literally and physical.

But, they are still blind. They forget that Jesus already came to earth ans their Messiah, did brought the kingdom of God/heaven to Israel. It is all about gospel.

In another word, in John 3:3,5, Christ says that, we must be born again, or we cannot enter the kingdom of God. "The kingdom of God" is pictured as eternal life-salvation.

The kingdom of God is already midst within us 2000 years ago. It is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Nowhere in the four gospels say that Christ did offer to Jews of earthly political or government. He just brought the kingdom of God to Israel is all about gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

It can't be any plainer than that! :thumbs:

 

[HankD]

This thread has strayed far from the original OP which has never been answered. I will repeat, hopeful for an answer:

Dispensationalists argue that Jesus Christ came to offer the earthly Messianic Kingdom, that His offer was rejected and that He instituted the parenthesis form of the Kingdom, the Church, instead. Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews? Or am I just:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

But OR, the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom of God was already here as the Nation of Israel. Israel had been chosen of God as that earthly kingdom millenia before His arrival.

Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.​

Isaiah 49

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel,and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.​

I say "manifestation" because Israel was the tail and not the head of the nations when Jesus arrived. Because their disobedience of the past and the error and self-serving of it's leadership,Israel was in the perdicament that they were in: being in subjection to the Gentiles (Romans).

They should have been a light unto the nations but in many ways they were just like them and when their Messiah came the leadership of Israel rejected Him along with the Gentiles.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.​

Obviously God in His foreknowledge knew this would happen:

No dispensationalist that I know of believes that God was caught off guard by Israel's (along with the Gentiles) rejection of the Savior of mankind.

Mark 9

11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.​

Luke 17
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.​

And in fact allowed it in His sovereign plan.

Acts 4

23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.​

Jesus taught this openly and plainly to His Apostles and disciples who apparently didn't understand until after the fact of His resurrection and the coming and enlightment of the Holy Spirit who brought all things that He had said back to them, back to their memory.​

Shortly before His Assumption they therefore asked Him​

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.​

The answer was positive, BUT, it was not the time for them to know precisely when Israel was to be restored. Their mission was to spread the gospel to the inhabited world, namely the Gentiles.​

Then when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled Israel will be restored to it's rightful place:​

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.​

Isaiah 2
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.​

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

To this very day we do not know the exact time of His coming back to earth but we do know that He WILL come and we (His Church) may even see some of the fore-shadows.


HankD​

 

[HankD]

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

"of this world" does not mean that the Kingdom of God cannot be situated upon planet earth...

It means it is not of the "cosmos" (of which the Romans were currently in control) but of God.

Matthew 13 teaches that the Kingdom of God is presently in "the world" (but obviously not OF the world). In fact Matthew 13 is the account of the "mysteries" of the Kingdom of God while the Word is disseminated in the world and the devil's attempt to infiltrate and destroy the Kindom of heaven.

Matthew 13

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.​

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

The Kingdom of God is IN the world but NOT of the world.

We do not use the methods and weapons of this world to participate in the harvest of citizens of the Kingdom but the Word of God concerning faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and the witness of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

These things are not of this world.

HankD​

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 ---

The kingdom is the same.

1A -Implied kingdom: the 'not of this earth Kingdom of God

1B -

When Jesus said "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" it was a reference to the kingdom that was talked about in the OT that was unmistakeably earthly.

1C -

When Jesus told the Pharisees "the kingdom is in your midst," it was a reference to the fact that they could look around them on the earth and see the kingdom.

I think I figured out the English Language skill of outlining finally in the 8th grade. My Granddaughter that lives with me learned in the 4th grade.