Another great passage OR. It shows that the prophets "agree" with the fact that the Gentiles would come in and that the kingdom would be restored. It does not say that the church "fulfilled" that promise. When you read that promise in context, you see that Amos was not talking about the church, and James was not talking about fulfillment.
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Messianic Kingdom
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
I certainly agree with this Scripture OR though we differ concerning the details.OldRegular said:
I think we have run this thread to it's course.
Let the onlookers decide from the Scriptures and exegesis given.
In the meantime God bless you brother OR.
And no matter how the details turn out...
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
HankD
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
HankD said:
I agree Hank D. This thread has run its course. I rejoined this forum some weeks back as a sort of therapy but my tenure here has run its course for the time being.
I feel very strongly about my beliefs just as others do. I have spent my entire working career as an engineer where writing bluntly and succinctly was a necessity. I realize that I have at times been blunt and have offended my brothers as they have from time to time offended me. For this I am sorry.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20
For my part I have never been offended. Perhaps I am in the minority, but I don't mind heated exchanges, so long as it doesn't get personal. And even then it doesn't bother me. I just think it is wrong.OldRegular said:
Whatever else we might disagree on, we can agree on this. On the day that we celebrate his first coming, we can pray for his second.
Pilgrimer
Member
Why would you want to assume that? Especially when there is such an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary?
Of course the kingdom under the Old Covenant was earthly. Everything about the Old Covenant was earthly; an earthly land, an earthly people, an earthly tabernacle made of goat’s hair. The point is that all these earthly things were symbolic, and were, according to Scripture, “patterned” after a vision Moses was shown in the mount, a vision that was so glorious that it made his face shine so that when he came down out of the mount to speak with the people they ran away in fear! What Moses was shown was a vision of the New Jerusalem that we are shown in the Revelation of Jesus. And he was specifically instructed by God to see that he made everything that pertained to the Old Covenant according to this “pattern” he was shown.
Everything in the Old Covenant, from the land of Israel itself with it’s seed time and harvests, with it’s new moons and Sabbaths, with it’s feasts and festivals, down to the laws and ordinances that governed the daily lives of its people, even the very furnishings and vessels of the ministry of the temple with all it’s rites and rituals, all were “patterned” after a heavenly country, and point to it, and speak of it, and bear witness to it, object lessons given by God that teach us about God’s everlasting kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom Jesus came to open the way into. A kingdom where there is peace and joy and righteousness. A land that has no need of the sun or the moon for light because the Father and the Son are there and the brightness of their presence chases away the shadows. A land where a river of life-giving water flows down from the throne, and on either side of the river are planted the tree of life, with all manner of fruit. But best of all, it speaks of a Temple, the very courts of which have now been laid open by the blood of Christ, that we might enter that temple and approach that Holy of Holies and stand in the very presence of God, not some earthly kingdom in some earthly temple built by the hand of man that requires the blood of bulls and goats for us to worship there, but into a heavenly kingdom and a heavenly temple built by God into which we can now enter by the blood of His Son.
Of course the kingdom under the Old Covenant was earthly. But I contend that those earthly things spoke of something above and beyond themselves, they spoke of heavenly things, spiritual things, things unseen, things high and holy and above anything this old world can think or even imagine. Those old earthly types and figures spoke of the kingdom of heaven, and of the blessedness of those of us who dwell in that sweet Beulah land. These spiritual things, of which the old earthly types were but dim shadows, the things of God’s heavenly kingdom are as close to us as our own breath, but it is God who reveals them to us, by his Spirit.
“Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of any man, the things which God has prepared for those that love him, but He has revealed them to us by His Spirit.”
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Very eloquently said Pilgrim and all true of course.
However there seems so many Scripture both in the Old and New Testaments that clearly teach that there is yet an earthly aspect of the Kingdom of God yet to be fulfilled in the Nation of Israel:
e.g.
Luke 22
However there seems so many Scripture both in the Old and New Testaments that clearly teach that there is yet an earthly aspect of the Kingdom of God yet to be fulfilled in the Nation of Israel:
e.g.
Luke 22
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
HankD
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
HankD
Pilgrimer
Member
Agreed. But it is God's heavenly kingdom, that kingdom which is founded upon the blood of His Son which will one day have an "earthly aspect," or will become physically present in this world. It's not the Old Covenant earthly kingdom of Israel, that kingdom had an earthly aspect all along, so it's not the earthly kingdom of Israel that will one day come down from God out of heaven, it's the New Covenant heavenly kingdom that is yet to come. But that won't happen until after the Second Coming of Jesus, after the resurrection, after the day of judgment, after this present old fallen, corrupt heavens and earth pass away and there is a new heaven and new earth. That's when the "earthly aspect" of the Kingdom of God will be fulfilled. That is when the Kingdom of God will be manifest in the earth, and we will see him face to face (see Revelation 22). That's the "blessed hope" of Jew and Gentile, the coming, or manifestation, or yet to be fulfilled earthly aspect of the Kingdom of Heaven.
The "Messianic" kingdom is another way of saying the "Christian" kingdom. They are one and the same. It's the Christian kingdom that is the fulfillment of all the Scriptures, which was foreshadowed by the Law and the Prophets, which is present now in the spirit, and which will one day come down out of the heavenly, or spiritual realm, to this earth and will be physically present with us. That is the "kingdom" of which all the Scriptures speak and which is the blessed hope of both the Jew, and the Gentile.
"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men." Revelation 21:3
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
P.S. About the 12 Apostles eating and drinking at Jesus' table in his kingdom . . .
Consider for a moment. Remember all Jesus' teachings about how he is the "bread of life," the "manna from heaven," about his body and his blood were to be our "meat and drink," and how he would give us life-giving waters to drink, etc., etc. What do you think all those things meant if they were not speaking figuratively of eating and drinking spiritual food in a spiritual kingdom? If Jesus' kingdom is the Christian kingdom, then the meat and drink of that kingdom would be spiritual food, not literal lambs and goats.
And as for the 12 Apostles sitting on thrones judging the 12 tribes, where do you think the 12 Apostles are now? All of them laid down their lives for the Gospel, don't you think maybe they are already seated on thrones in heaven and are ruling and reigning with Christ? After all, when you read the New Testament, and live by it's teachings, are you not being obedient to these men by whose testimony you live and serve God? The Apostles are alive, in heaven, and they have lived and reigned with Christ for over 2000 years now, and counting.
Of course all of what you said is true now and to come.
But my thought is that there will still be a preliminary earthly (but not of this world-comos) kingdom because of the great wealth of Old and New Testament Scripture which is so literal (Revelation 20, etc).
Yes, I understand that Jesus often bewilderd His disciples with metaphor, allegory figures of speech, etc (in 3 days I will rebuild this temple, etc).
However His resurrection (for instance) is/was literal.
He even ate some fish with His disciples after His resurrection, so physical food is a possibility in a physical kingdom.
We each sort it out as best we can.
Another for instance: I'm just not convinced that the 1000 years of Revelation 20 is a metaphor.
And if it is what does it mean? eternity?
Must we wait an eternity for the new heaven and new earth along with the arrival of the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21?
I suppose in the end it doesn't really matter whether the new heavens and the new earth occur at His coming or 1,000 years later after an earthly reign with the 12 apostles sitting on 12 literal thrones judging literal Israel.
To be with Him and to be the object of His love is heaven indeed.
And in any case no promise of God will fail whether to Jews or gentiles.
Eternity plus or minus 1000 years is still eternity.
You are indeed a pilgrim.
HankD
But my thought is that there will still be a preliminary earthly (but not of this world-comos) kingdom because of the great wealth of Old and New Testament Scripture which is so literal (Revelation 20, etc).
Yes, I understand that Jesus often bewilderd His disciples with metaphor, allegory figures of speech, etc (in 3 days I will rebuild this temple, etc).
However His resurrection (for instance) is/was literal.
He even ate some fish with His disciples after His resurrection, so physical food is a possibility in a physical kingdom.
We each sort it out as best we can.
Another for instance: I'm just not convinced that the 1000 years of Revelation 20 is a metaphor.
And if it is what does it mean? eternity?
Must we wait an eternity for the new heaven and new earth along with the arrival of the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21?
I suppose in the end it doesn't really matter whether the new heavens and the new earth occur at His coming or 1,000 years later after an earthly reign with the 12 apostles sitting on 12 literal thrones judging literal Israel.
To be with Him and to be the object of His love is heaven indeed.
And in any case no promise of God will fail whether to Jews or gentiles.
Eternity plus or minus 1000 years is still eternity.
You are indeed a pilgrim.
1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.HankD
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Glorious and eloquent posts Pilgrimer.
You have expressed what should be the Blessed Hope of the Saints of God of all time. We are told in Hebrews 11 of the Blessed Hope of Abraham. He looked, not for an earthly city, but a "city whose builder and maker is God." Whether we speak of that city or the New Heavens and New Earth we know that in due time the Triune God will tabernacle with those whom He has made "accepted in the beloved".
You have expressed what should be the Blessed Hope of the Saints of God of all time. We are told in Hebrews 11 of the Blessed Hope of Abraham. He looked, not for an earthly city, but a "city whose builder and maker is God." Whether we speak of that city or the New Heavens and New Earth we know that in due time the Triune God will tabernacle with those whom He has made "accepted in the beloved".
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother HandD - Preach it! :thumbs:
Then for good sport, here is something with which some untrained persons will really have a problem: A figure of Speech can also be Literal; and something Literal can also be a Figure of Speech.
Dare I say that it is indeed the hope of all dispensationalists as well (at least this one).
Are there any out there who do not have this hope?
I consider the Millenium a short interlude to fulfill all the literal promises of God to literal Israel.
IMO, that does not mean I am any more or less spiritual than those who are not such literalists but see God's fulfilment of promises to Israel in the Church.
We all agree that the New Jerusalem, that City that Abraham sought not built with hands will be our eternal abode. This indeed is our blessed hope.
HankD
Pilgrimer
Member
I would like to suggest that the Old Covenant kingdom was the preliminary earthly kingdom, preliminary meaning “preparatory,” that pointed to, taught about, and prepared the way for the New Covenant kingdom. That’s why, once the New Covenant kingdom was come, the Old Covenant kingdom and temple and sacrifices, indeed, the whole Mosaic economy, passed away. Its purpose had been fulfilled, to prepare the way for the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven, not God establishing another earthly kingdom, but the dividing curtain being torn so that men might enter into and dwell in God’s house.
That’s why I’m a partial preterist, because I also see in the Scripture many very literal promises of the physical redemption of our bodies, as well as the earth itself. I believe that Jesus not only purchased the souls of men with his blood, but that he purchased the whole physical creation, and that the day is coming when He will return to this old world to redeem it, and those of us whose souls have already been redeemed from death and hell will also have our bodies redeemed, redeemed from the curse of the fall, he will destroy the sin and corruption that the whole cosmos became subject to when Adam and Eve made that fatal mistake and brought the whole creation under the curse of death. That's why the Scripture says that the last enemy Jesus will destroy will be death, and that will happen on the day of judgment, at the Second Coming of Jesus.
But that won’t happen in any preliminary kingdom, that will be the final fruition of the New Covenant kingdom, and only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will survive the judgment day to see that redeemed, glorified, world that is yet to come and enjoy the blessings of eternal life in bodies made immortal by the Spirit that dwells in us.
That’s what I see as the error of dispensational millennialism, that it takes the promises of the physical redemption which characterize the new heaven and earth that will come to pass at the end of this world, and it takes the promises of all the spiritual blessings which characterize this present New Covenant age, and it combines them into an imaginary kingdom that is neither Old Covenant nor yet New Covenant but a cobbled together mixture of them both.
Agreed, the problem is when you try to limit these physical blessings to an interim kingdom between the Old and the New and thereby fail to recognize that these are physical blessings which will be enjoyed after the resurrection and judgment, in the new heaven and earth. The "physical kingdom" you are referring to is the new earth which will be redeemed from the curse of sin and death, an earth where there will be no more pain or suffering or weeping, where we will able to eat for sheer pleasure, but our bodies will no longer be dependent upon food to sustain our lives for the source of our life, even that of our body, will be the Spirit that dwells within us. That's why Paul said that it is "Christ in us" which is our hope of glory. Only those who have the Spirit of Christ abiding in their hearts by faith will enjoy resurrection to eternal life in a physical world that will one day be cleansed of sin and corruption . . . not in this world, but in that world that is yet to come. The old-timers called it the "eternal state."
I don’t believe the 1000 years is a metaphor for eternity. I believe it is simply a metaphor for a very long period of time, a long period of time that lapses between Jesus’ first coming and his second coming. Notice that in the Revelation, the great bulk of the visions John sees happen before that long period of time, on the side of Jesus’ first coming (Revelation 1:1 - 20:3). What happens after that long period of time is the second coming, the resurrection, the judgment, and then eternity begins with a new heaven and new earth with God physically dwelling with us face to face and us dwelling in glorified bodies just like Jesus now has (Revelation 20:7-21:8)
Well said, but the issue of whether or not Jesus Christ reigns in this present world is, in my opinion, of vital importance to all believers and that empowering truth has been at best muddied and at worst overthrown by dispensational millennialism . . .
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
I understand all that you have said, however I am still not convinced concerning the metaphor of a thousand years being a long time (almost 2000 years now).
But I am curious as to why you made the statement As to whether or not Christ reigns in this present world :I am not sure how this relates or how you meant this.
We are told in John 3:16 that God loves this world (typified by the whosoevers) but in 1 John 2:15-17 we are told to not love the world (typified by the things of the world: lust, pride, etc).
In John 5:19
Clearly there is one cosmos comprised of sinful fallen mankind whom the Father loves (the whosoevers) but hates the system of evil controlled (obviously by permission) by the "evil one".
But I am curious as to why you made the statement As to whether or not Christ reigns in this present world :I am not sure how this relates or how you meant this.
We are told in John 3:16 that God loves this world (typified by the whosoevers) but in 1 John 2:15-17 we are told to not love the world (typified by the things of the world: lust, pride, etc).
In John 5:19
RSV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.
Clearly there is one cosmos comprised of sinful fallen mankind whom the Father loves (the whosoevers) but hates the system of evil controlled (obviously by permission) by the "evil one".
But this is His sovereign will, that the evil one be allowed to have power over this world.
Even to the exent of the infiltration of the children of the evil one into the manifestation of the kingdom of God on earth:
Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
So ultimately yes, Jesus will destroy the works of the devil and the cosmos over which He presently has control - this is the object of His incarnation concerning the redemption of the human race.
KJV 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
I believe we are in agreement concerning this.
But let me ask you this then my brother, what is your take on the passages in Revelation 20-21 which clearly say (admittedly perhaps metaphorically) that satan will be bound and then loosed again.
Please bear with me as I paste in this lengthy passage
KJV Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
How does Matthew 13 (wheat and tares mingled together in the kingdom) relate? It is evident that the "visible" church is not all the church of Matthew 16 which jesus said He would/will build. Much of professing Christianity deny many of the essentials of the faith and practice wicked things. This is true also of local churches, a mixed mulitude so to speak.
I am particularly interested in your take on what this means. If the thousand years means a long time, what then does the loosing of satan and His deception of the nations represent ?
I am curious and sincerely interested as to whether this is a consideration within the partial preterist view. Is there a short time of deception just before the Second Coming in the preterist/partial preterist view and how can that deception be any worse than what the Church is presently afflicted with by the mixed mulitude of the workers of iniquity and those teaching deadly error?
A question for OR: does Sproul deal with the Book of Revelation particularly chapters 20-21?
A question for OR: does Sproul deal with the Book of Revelation particularly chapters 20-21?
Thanks
HankD
HankD
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oops, I should have addressed the question concerning Sproul to grasshopper (I don't know if he is participating in this thread). He had talked about him in another thread.
I did find that Sproul disagrees with the view of the majority of scholarship that the Book of Revelation was written under the reign of Domitian (AD81-90) which would put it well after the destruction of Jerusalem. He makes some compelling observations but they seem inconclusive. Irenaeus indicates that the book was written under the reign of Domitian.
Why is that important: Well for a couple of reasons. If the Book of Revelation refers to the destruction of Jerusalem then the passages concerning the sooness of His coming are no longer a problem if the Book was written in the 60's (for instance).
Secondly verse 1:7
I did find that Sproul disagrees with the view of the majority of scholarship that the Book of Revelation was written under the reign of Domitian (AD81-90) which would put it well after the destruction of Jerusalem. He makes some compelling observations but they seem inconclusive. Irenaeus indicates that the book was written under the reign of Domitian.
Why is that important: Well for a couple of reasons. If the Book of Revelation refers to the destruction of Jerusalem then the passages concerning the sooness of His coming are no longer a problem if the Book was written in the 60's (for instance).
Secondly verse 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
"they which pierced Him" seems to make more sense.
However the fact is that it was Titus and not Jesus who destroyed Jerusalem.
Not every eye saw Jesus and why would all the kindreds of the earth wail (along with those who pierced Him) simply because Titus had departed from Rome to destroy Jerusalem. All the kindreds of the earth will wail presumably because somehow they will then know that Jesus Christ is returning to judge them.
Not every eye saw Jesus and why would all the kindreds of the earth wail (along with those who pierced Him) simply because Titus had departed from Rome to destroy Jerusalem. All the kindreds of the earth will wail presumably because somehow they will then know that Jesus Christ is returning to judge them.
In addition the Book of Revelation is filled with cataclysmic disasters and events that have never happened in the history of this world much less at the siege of Jerusalem (as bad as it was).
So, this theory that all of the Book of Revelation was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple seems very unlikely to me.
HankD
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I had indicated earlier [somewhere] that I had read [actually skimmed] Sproul's book, The Last Days According to Jesus. His discussion centers primarily on the Olivet Discourse and its implications related to the destruction of Jerusalem. He mentions a few verses from Revelation 22 [6, 7, 12, 20] related to the nearness of the return of Jesus Christ but has no real discussion of Revelation at all.
I believe that the Book of Revelation had meaning for the early Church undergoing persecution, meaning we may not understand. To me at least the overwhelming message of Revelation is that the Church is victorious. Furthermore, I believe that some parts of the Olivet Discourse are prophetic of the destruction of Jerusalsm.I don't know whether that makes me a partial preterist or not.
I also believe that Revelation pictures, primarily in symbolic language, the struggle between good and evil in the time period between the ascension of Jesus Christ and His return, a period when the power of Satan is severely limited. At the end of that time there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead, at which time Satan and those who belong to him are cast into the lake of fire and creation itself is redeemed. The redeemed of all time will dwell in that redeemed creation, the New Heavens and New Earth, in the presence of the Triune God eternally.
Lu 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
The reason people can't "SEE" the Kingdom of God is not because it doesn't exit, but because they reject the "Spiritual vision" to "SEE".
People's "Vision" can be affected by what they chose to see, the "Rose colored Glasses" syndrome
Have you ever considered that might be your problem???
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No one else has been able to answer the question in the OP. Surely you do not believe the passages you quoted constitute the offer of an earthly Messianic Kingdom?
Pilgrimer
Member
The dispensational millennial view is that it will not be until Jesus returns physically to this world that he will take his seat upon his throne, set up his kingdom, and assume power to rule and reign in this world, ergo the “millennial” kingdom. Which in effect either limits Christ’s power and authority in this present age to only the church (which some premillennialists will grudgingly concede), or worse, denies it altogether. Your comments below typify this view. But my studies of the Scripture, as well as my personal experience, is that Christ not only overcame sin, hell and death, but that he also overcame the world, and that he is already seated on his throne and has been given power and authority over all things, whether they be things in heaven, or things in the earth, or things under the earth, and that includes all the powers of hell. Everything that exists is subject to Christ, with one and only one exception . . . the Father who subjected all things under the feet of the Son.
To my way of thinking, this issue is of vital importance as it affects not only our ability to minister the Gospel to others, but to live a godly life ourselves. It is one of those foundational doctrines that should be jealously guarded.
I disagree. That’s not actually what John said, he said the whole world lies in wickedness, which is true, and which is why the church is called to go and bring them the Good News. And the Good News is that Jesus Christ has overcome the world, has broken the power of the Devil, has been exalted to the right hand of God, seated in the throne of heaven, all power and all authority given to him and all things have been made subject to him, and at the name of Jesus all the powers of hell itself fall prostrate in subjection. I have seen it! I have seen what happens when the Gospel is preached in the power of the Spirit . . . the darkness melts away like shadows before the noonday sun and people who all their lives were enslaved by the enemy are set free. That’s the main problem I have with millennialism, it robs the Christian of the vision of the glorified Christ that is revealed in “The Revelation of Jesus Christ,” and thereby robs the Christian of the kind of power and authority we have in his name to overcome the enemy and the world, even in our own lives. No wonder the church, especially the churches of the west, are so weak, ineffectual and sinful. They’re teaching a Jesus who will one day reign over this earth. But that’s a “messiah” of their own imagination, not the Christ of the Gospel, and after all, it’s the Gospel that is the power of God . . .
Okay, back up and answer me a question. Considering that within a few brief years of Jesus speaking those very words, the whole nation of Israel would be destroyed, every city, town and village, either razed to the ground or left a smoking pillar on the horizon; the land, which before was a verdant, fruitful land, now laid waste, fields burned, forests leveled, vineyard and orchard cut down; millions slain, millions more sold into slavery, the temple and the city where God had put his name a heap of rubble where an inferno had consumed whole city blocks, where so many Jews were slaughtered in the courts of that beautiful, sacred, holy Temple that blood literally ran down the stairs from the Temple Mount and extinguished fires in the city below. Now, considering that all this came to pass upon those very people among whom Jesus walked and taught and ministered, don’t you think it at least reasonable to assume that Jesus just might have spoken a few times about that judgment? The judgment of the Law? Against the nation of Israel? That was coming upon that very generation? The judgment of that Law which Jesus said he had come to fulfill, a Law which could not pass away until every jot and tittle was fulfilled? Don’t you think just maybe some of Jesus’ teaching about God’s judgment of the world was talking about that soon coming, catastrophic, bloody, firey, terrible destruction that would bring the Old Covenant “world” to an end? The coming of Jesus Christ changed the world . . . wonderfully, and powerfully. We now live in a world where there is salvation! And righteousness! And peace with God! A world where there is divine power! And divine authority! A world where Jesus Christ is Lord!
Continued . . .