Methodist and women pastors

[Jerome]

why would we give any credibility to their other doctrines and beliefs?

I hope we give credibility to the Trinity, believer's baptism, etc.
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

 

[Marcia]

I spent 13 years as a United Methodist pastor (92-05).......<snip>.....This has nothing to do with women proclaiming the Gospel nor whether God has a claim on their lives. It is women demanding to be recognized because they are women with loud voices and momentum. I spent my 13 years in the UMC cleaning up messes left behind woman pastors. All of them were divorced and went into the pastorate following the break up of their marriage. One would not sing Amazing Grace because she refused to say the phrase "saved a wretch like me". One openly confessed to being religious but wonder aloud "saved from what?" Another could organize a roast beef supper or rummage sale like nobody's business but would go months at a time without publicly reading from or preaching from a Bible. They all had an agenda and the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not it. They received their credentials from institutions equally agenda driven without any regard for personal testimony or integrity.

Again, this has nothing to do with a woman's role in the church. I am convinced that this is a thinly veiled work of the adversary to tear the Lord's church apart from the inside....<snipped>......

I wholeheartedly agree. Well stated.

 

[trustitl]

Trustitl...
We cant discern the hearts of the AOG folks, and I dont know that much about them. I just know that for my almost 30 years as an evangelical christian I have generally noticed that most evangelicals have a favorable impression of them, even though they might not agree with them.

I have never heard the AOG lumped together with the extreme Word of Faithers, the snake handlers, and other really extreme pentecostal groups.

The AOG has always seemed to have a pretty good "approval rating" in the Baptist churches where I have fellowshipped, including my current one.

My conviction is to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that in the past they came to the conclusion, from the scriptures, that women could indeed be in positions of leadership 1st, and then put it into practice.

I didn't think this was about individuals in the AOG. I don't think that anybody here is equating them with "extreme Word of Faithers or the snake handlers". The topic is women in leadership positions and you brought in the AOG as a denomination. I think it has been shown that the AOG has arrived at their position poorly.

There are no doubt good children of God in the AOG just as there are in baptist churches despite them being wrong on some issues. However, the AOG is wrong as a group on this issue.

 

[ajg1959]

ajg....



I'm not an AOG person, so I have to keep going back to their "beliefs" section of their web-site to find out their stance on things.

I did that regarding your comments and it appears you are mistaken.

For some reason this one...as opposed to the one on women in leadership...is not in PDF format, so I can copy and paste.....


(bolding mine)






http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/sptlissues_church_at_large.cfm


:godisgood:

I am not mistaken regardless of what the website says. I have had several AOG preachers and many members including members of my own family that have told me that if I was "really" saved that I would speak in tongues. They say that everyone that receives salvation speaks in tongues as a sign of their salvation.

I was raised about 50 miles from the birthplace of the AOG, so I am very familiar with them.

AJ

 

[Darron Steele]

Trustitl...



I understand what you are saying, and well intentioned folks will sometimes do that.

We cant discern the hearts of the AOG folks, and I dont know that much about them. I just know that for my almost 30 years as an evangelical christian I have generally noticed that most evangelicals have a favorable impression of them, even though they might not agree with them.

I have never heard the AOG lumped together with the extreme Word of Faithers, the snake handlers, and other really extreme pentecostal groups.

The AOG has always seemed to have a pretty good "approval rating" in the Baptist churches where I have fellowshipped, including my current one.

My conviction is to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that in the past they came to the conclusion, from the scriptures, that women could indeed be in positions of leadership 1st, and then put it into practice.


:godisgood:

I spent about two years in the Assemblies of God: fall 2002-spring 2004.

Basically, they are like mainstream Baptists but believe strongly in the Pentecostal `gifts.' Unlike in other Pentecostal groups, the Pentecostal stuff is done with a more refined sense of moderation.

I was accepted into membership despite not speaking in tongues nor desiring to.

There may be some exceptions, but from what I saw, the Assemblies of God certainly do NOT believe that non-Pentecostals are not Christians. The two Assemblies of God congregations I knew best participated in ministrations with congregations of other denominations.

 

[drfuss]

drfuss: Having been active in AOG churches for 35 years, I just had to correct this wrong information. I suggest you go to the AOG website and check it out.

I was thinking about this thread while I was trying to go to sleep last night and it occured to me that we are debating the issue of women being pastors in the AOG church. Why?


Most AOG dont even recognise us baptists as fellow believers because we dont speak in tongues. False

They teach that tongues is the evidence of salvation and that if you dont speak in tongues then you are not saved. False

Some of them teach that the Holy Spirit doesnt dwell in a believer until they recieve the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", False, the AOG believes a Christian recieves the Holy Spirit at salvation.

and the initial evidence of recieving the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.
Partly True, it is not "recieving" the Holy Spirit, but the "infilling" of the Holy Spirit that the AOG associates with speaking in tongues.

Either way, us Baptists are considered to be lost and/or without the Holy Spirit because we dont speak in tongues. False

They also believe that salvation can be lost and that a person may need to get re-saved many times or risk going to hell. False, They believe salvation can be forfeited, but not lost. If you don't know the difference, you should not be talking about it.

When a church teaches such apostasy about the true gospel of salvation, then why would we give any credibility to their other doctrines and beliefs? What about people who spread false information about other churches?

AJ

ajg1959, Where do you get such wrong information about the AOG?

 

[thegospelgeek]

drfuss: Having been active in AOG churches for 35 years, I just had to correct this wrong information. I suggest you go to the AOG website and check it out.



ajg1959, Where do you get such wrong information about the AOG?

Confusion come from the fact that denominations have an official statement of faith but many of the local churches have a practice that is different from that stance. Throw in the fact that many members believe something quite different than what is preached in the pulpit and you get all kinds of stuff.

Whenever someone hears that I am FWB they say "You guys think you can sin all you want and go to heaven". Not what baptist believe or teach, but it's what many think.

 

[drfuss]

Confusion come from the fact that denominations have an official statement of faith but many of the local churches have a practice that is different from that stance. Throw in the fact that many members believe something quite different than what is preached in the pulpit and you get all kinds of stuff.

Whenever someone hears that I am FWB they say "You guys think you can sin all you want and go to heaven". Not what baptist believe or teach, but it's what many think.

drfuss: I know that is not what most Baptist believe; however, it is what Charles Stanley believes based on his book on eternal security and many people think all Baptists believe as Stanley does.

My other points above are that people should not say what a whole denomination believes based on what a few misguided people say. It is easy to check things out using websites on the internet.

 

[ajg1959]

drfuss: Having been active in AOG churches for 35 years, I just had to correct this wrong information. I suggest you go to the AOG website and check it out.



ajg1959, Where do you get such wrong information about the AOG?

Yes, I have read the official statement on the AOG website, but, I can tell you for a fact, that what I have heard from AOG members and preachers is far from what the website says.

I was raised 50 miles from Hot Springs, AR, the birthplace of AOG back in 1914, and the site of their first national conference. My grandmother and many of my aunts and uncles were AOG. And they all told me that EVERY born again beleiver speaks in tongues as a sign of their salvation. They say that if I dont speak in tongues that I cant be saved.

Even pastors and church officials have told me this. By saying that tongues is a sign of salvation, they are essentially saying that whole congregations of non-tongue speaking folks are lost and going to hell.

In Arkansas, the AOG has many churches and members. I grew up around them my whole life, and a website is not going to change what I have heard from them myself.

The Oneness Pentecostals that split away from the AOG in 1916 are also prevelent in Arkansas, and they pretty much hold to the same doctrine that every born again beleiver speaks in tongues as a sign of salvation.

Lets be honest about church websites. I have never seen a Baptist website say that people that are divorced and remarried are living in sin and are not welcome, yet I have been to several that blatantly give divorcees the cold shoulder and judge them by this one aspect of their life. Websites dont tell the whole story.

AJ

 

[drfuss]

Yes, I have read the official statement on the AOG website, but, I can tell you for a fact, that what I have heard from AOG members and preachers is far from what the website says.

I was raised 50 miles from Hot Springs, AR, the birthplace of AOG back in 1914, and the site of their first national conference. My grandmother and many of my aunts and uncles were AOG. And they all told me that EVERY born again beleiver speaks in tongues as a sign of their salvation. They say that if I dont speak in tongues that I cant be saved.

Even pastors and church officials have told me this. By saying that tongues is a sign of salvation, they are essentially saying that whole congregations of non-tongue speaking folks are lost and going to hell.

In Arkansas, the AOG has many churches and members. I grew up around them my whole life, and a website is not going to change what I have heard from them myself.

The Oneness Pentecostals that split away from the AOG in 1916 are also prevelent in Arkansas, and they pretty much hold to the same doctrine that every born again beleiver speaks in tongues as a sign of salvation.

Lets be honest about church websites. I have never seen a Baptist website say that people that are divorced and remarried are living in sin and are not welcome, yet I have been to several that blatantly give divorcees the cold shoulder and judge them by this one aspect of their life. Websites dont tell the whole story.

AJ

drfuss: For 35 years, I was active in AOG churches in Maryland, Penna. and Virginia. I never once heard the things you were told and listed in your posts. What I heard in all these churches agreed with the AOG Website. Apparently you were exposed to a local situation in Arkansas that certainly did not reflect the AOG as a whole.

My objection is that you indicated what the AOG beliefs are based on your very limited experience in Arkansas when the AOG denomination does not believe what you indicated they do.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I believe what drfuss is saying. :thumbs:

I have known many AOG individuals and Pastors and have never in my many years of knowing them heard them say that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation or that one has to speak in tongues if they are saved. I have heard such comments on a local radio broadcast by a minister, but he was not part of the AOG denomination.

 

[ajg1959]

drfuss: For 35 years, I was active in AOG churches in Maryland, Penna. and Virginia. I never once heard the things you were told and listed in your posts. What I heard in all these churches agreed with the AOG Website. Apparently you were exposed to a local situation in Arkansas that certainly did not reflect the AOG as a whole.

My objection is that you indicated what the AOG beliefs are based on your very limited experience in Arkansas when the AOG denomination does not believe what you indicated they do.

I concede that I have "very limited experience".....you could even just be more blunt and say that I am stupid, but if you go to an AOG church in the Arkansas, Oklahoma, Missouri area, you will find exactly what I have described.

Now, I will take my "limited" self out of this conversation and refrain from any more comments on this thread. Time to move on.

AJ

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AJ: but if you go to an AOG church in the Arkansas, Oklahoma, Missouri area, you will find exactly what I have described.

HP: Sorry, but I have first hand experience in the areas you speak of that would clearly contradict your assessment. Such is simply not the case in any AOG I have attended or with any of those members I know personally and have very close contact with. I have no idea where you received your information or limited experience, but I would say it is simply not the case by and large as you present it to be, if it is at all.