37818
Well-Known Member
With multiple arguments, multiple posts, I may miss somethings. I do try to it simple.
It helps to know where we agree.
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Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?
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It helps to know where we agree.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
It would help if you actually provide scripture that shows that the archangel Michael is actually Christ. But since you cannot then why do you insist that He is?
The fact that the pre-incarnate Christ is referred to as the angel of the Lord in some verses does not equate to the archangel Michael being Christ.
Dan_10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
Dan_10:21 "However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.
Dan_12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Jud_1:9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Rev_12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
These are the five times that we see the angel Michael mentioned in scripture.
So which one of these is Christ and if not all times then why any time?
Scripture shows you that your view is wrong.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Literally the messenger of the LORD
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
I followed you. I was answering in like fashion but letting you know that I see deity represented rather than present.
I am familiar with a couple of times when it is supposed that Jesus is present.
It begins to be confusing when Joshua’s meeting outside of Jericho is thrown in although no angel is mentioned.
I understand the reasoning behind some of the times but I haven’t gone back to review every instance since having been taught it. It is not exactly essential doctrine.
37818
Well-Known Member
No, the archangel Michael . . . . Biblically the only archangel.
That he is a preincarnate Christ is in dispute.
If Jesus Christ and the archangel Michael are presupposed to be different persons, then Revelation 12:7-10 is our proof text of this.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
I haven’t seen any proof of them being the same. This really should be the discussion.
37818
Well-Known Member
.The answer to the question of how the archangel Michael's name's meaning, "Who is like God?" In being uncreated.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Proof text that Michael and Christ are not the same, I agree.
Those verses do not help your case.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So are you suggesting that Micah was actually the pre-incarnate Christ?
Micah “Who is like God?"
That's your argument for Michael the archangel being the pre-incarnate Christ
Michael “Who is like God?”
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37818
Well-Known Member
So Micah = Michael the Archangel
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
I don’t see how he was not created. Can you show me where you get that idea.
And as was already stated, name meanings do not always mean that they apply to the individual that they are given to.
Ultimately, the purpose of created beings is to give glory to God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So now you are saying that Micah is actually the pre-incarnate Christ?
Based on what?
@37818 your logic is really flawed.
37818
Well-Known Member
The Son of God both the Son and God, He is not created being God.
If the archangel Michael is a christophany, the as the preincarnate Christ would not be created being the eternal Son of God.
Now the incarnation He became part of His creation. He could have also could have first became part of His creation if having became the archangel before creating the angels. Known as the sons of God. The three Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are undstood to be the one uncreated LORD God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you are going to base your view on "could have" rather than trust what the word of God shows you.
Here is where I compared Zec 3:1-2 with Jude 9
Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?
Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ? The fact that Matthew Henry believed this was true led me to consider this topic. It is well-known that some cults like the Jehovah’s Witnesses also teach this. Yet we shouldn’t prematurely be against a position just for that reason. We should let...
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Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?
Your point of view seem to be that Christ is Michael the archangel. That view is not supported by the text. Since you say I do not understand your view then lay it out in clear text with supporting scripture. Without that it just becomes your opinion. With multiple arguments, multiple posts...
www.baptistboard.com
Here is where we see the name of Michael used
Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?
Your point of view seem to be that Christ is Michael the archangel. That view is not supported by the text. Since you say I do not understand your view then lay it out in clear text with supporting scripture. Without that it just becomes your opinion. With multiple arguments, multiple posts...
www.baptistboard.com
Here we see Micah and Michael both mean "Who is like God"
Michael, the Chief Messenger = Jesus Christ?
Your point of view seem to be that Christ is Michael the archangel. That view is not supported by the text. Since you say I do not understand your view then lay it out in clear text with supporting scripture. Without that it just becomes your opinion. With multiple arguments, multiple posts...
www.baptistboard.com
How much more do you need before you will admit that Michael the archangel is not the pre-incarnate Christ?
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Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Right.
That is a big if and cannot be used to prove the point.
Where is Michael described as the Creator or uncreated?
I do see that the Son is not an angel in Hebrews.
Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
37818
Well-Known Member
The archangel identity and name asks the question "Who is like God?". The Son being both the uncreated with God and being the same uncreated God.
According to Revelation 12:7, the army of created angels belong to Michael.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
There is none beside God. There is no other.
So a question as such points to the fact that no one is like God, not the bearer of the name is like God.
Or rather, were given to his responsibility.
I give things to my children. It doesn’t mean that they have suddenly become the originator of it because they own the responsibility of it.
Since Michael is not Jesus, there is no reason to assume that he created angels that God gave him responsibility to lead.
Grants army belonged to Lincoln. The fact that it was Grant’s army doesn’t make Grant the President. He had to be elected.
And the position for God is not up for debate or election. Ask Satan. He could tell you.
Michal was one of the chiefs, was one of the mentioned archangels, not God
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