Militarily speaking

[agedman]

Looking at armed conflict throughout history, it seems very little was ever truly accomplished.

Certainly, nations were defined (China - tribal groups united and the territory named for the first true uniting emperor), Greek and Roman city-states united into powerful nations, the U.S. colonies united into a central government to become a world power, and so forth.

However, looking at the broad spectrum of human history, nations have remained rather static with only minor adjustments to their original boundaries.

For example: England was once an island nation in which three separatist groups struggled with each other to remain separate. It forcefully became a world empire, but now is basically back to where it was struggling with three separatist groups struggling with each other to remain separate. The same with Roman empire, Greek empire, Egyptian empire, Spanish empire, soon the US empire...

Question(s):

1) When do believers determine that armed conflict in support of the country (any country) is worthy and righteous?

2) When do believers determine that imprisonment and death are preferred in comparison to service and submission to the country (any country)?

3) Specific to the U.S., when does the BB members determine that the country is not one in which to honor with pledge and service?

 

[HankD]

Looking at armed conflict throughout history, it seems very little was ever truly accomplished.

Certainly, nations were defined (China - tribal groups united and the territory named for the first true uniting emperor), Greek and Roman city-states united into powerful nations, the U.S. colonies united into a central government to become a world power, and so forth.

However, looking at the broad spectrum of human history, nations have remained rather static with only minor adjustments to their original boundaries.

For example: England was once an island nation in which three separatist groups struggled with each other to remain separate. It forcefully became a world empire, but now is basically back to where it was struggling with three separatist groups struggling with each other to remain separate. The same with Roman empire, Greek empire, Egyptian empire, Spanish empire, soon the US empire...

Question(s):

1) When do believers determine that armed conflict in support of the country (any country) is worthy and righteous?

No country is "worthy and righteous". These are relative and subjective terms.

2) When do believers determine that imprisonment and death are preferred in comparison to service and submission to the country (any country)?

When led of the Spirit to do so.

3) Specific to the U.S., when does the BB members determine that the country is not one in which to honor with pledge and service?

ibid #2.

HankD

 

[agedman]

No country is "worthy and righteous". These are relative and subjective terms.

Agreed, however, there are those who consider all things American means that which is aligned with Godliness.

As a student of history, I struggled to find just when America became so righteous. It certainly wasn't in the colonial times, the federation times, or under the constitution.

 

[HankD]

Agreed, however, there are those who consider all things American means that which is aligned with Godliness.

As a student of history, I struggled to find just when America became so righteous. It certainly wasn't in the colonial times, the federation times, or under the constitution.

Countries like people sin.
My family members are sinners but I love them.

I am a veteran and a patriot and will keep my lifelong vow to protect America, the country I love, from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

HankD

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Looking at armed conflict throughout history, it seems very little was ever truly accomplished.

Certainly, nations were defined (China - tribal groups united and the territory named for the first true uniting emperor), Greek and Roman city-states united into powerful nations, the U.S. colonies united into a central government to become a world power, and so forth.

However, looking at the broad spectrum of human history, nations have remained rather static with only minor adjustments to their original boundaries.

For example: England was once an island nation in which three separatist groups struggled with each other to remain separate. It forcefully became a world empire, but now is basically back to where it was struggling with three separatist groups struggling with each other to remain separate. The same with Roman empire, Greek empire, Egyptian empire, Spanish empire, soon the US empire...

Question(s):

1) When do believers determine that armed conflict in support of the country (any country) is worthy and righteous?

2) When do believers determine that imprisonment and death are preferred in comparison to service and submission to the country (any country)?

3) Specific to the U.S., when does the BB members determine that the country is not one in which to honor with pledge and service?

1 Peter 2:17
Romans 13:1-7
Acts 4:5-21 Specifically 18 and 19
Acts 5:40-42

Sometimes disobedience is right, such as preaching Christ when ordered not to, by the government, as Peter and John were.. I don't know of any examples of warfare in the NT. I know many OT saints did serve their country in war, such as The Israelites at Jericho, Samson, David etc.. We are to "honour the king" regardless. We are to obey our rulers, except when it is evil. For example:, we would be required to "honour" a "Hitler" but not participate in his atrocities.

 

[HankD]

Granted, America's sin is abortion.

However the Basket of Deplorables clinging to their Bibles and Guns were NEVER asked to approve of it.
it has never appeared on a ballot except by the DNC's official platform and their candidates who put their hands dripping with blood in approval of murder.

NO, not even a referendum to approve of murder.

It was rammed down our throats by the government.

Yes it will take longer to overturn Roe versus Wade by ballots rather than bullets but as a Christian that is the goal of my actions.

Psalm 106
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

Now, if Antifa (commies in disguise behind the masks of cowardice) comes to me threatening my family - enter the Bill of Rights.


HankD

 

[Revmitchell]

Agreed, however, there are those who consider all things American means that which is aligned with Godliness.

Who are these people?

 

[Reformed]

Looking at armed conflict throughout history, it seems very little was ever truly accomplished.

It depends on how you define "accomplished". If we limit ourselves to wars including the United States consider the following:

1. The Revolutionary War secured a new nation founded on the moral stance that all men are created equal. That moral stance has been tested and has had differing degrees of success and failure over the past 231 years, but it has enshrined something to aspire to that no other nation can claim.

2. The Civil War resulted in the emancipation of almost 4,000,000 slaves.

3. World War I prevented the Central Powers from defeating the Entente Powers, and thus redefining most of Europe. As it turned out national borders were changed. For instance, the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire gave more territory to Italy. Other nations lost or gained territory as well.

4. World War II stopped the Nazi attempt to redraw all borders in Central Europe and Scandinavia. It also prevented the complete annihilation of Jews from Nazi-occupied territory.

5. The Korean War succeeded in stopping the communist North's takeover of South Korea.

6. The conflict in Grenada stopped Cuba from establishing a presence in the southern Caribbean.

7. The Gulf War liberated Kuwait and re-opened vital shipping lanes carrying oil. Unfortunately, the power vacuum left after Sadam Hussein was deposed provided Al Queda a base of operations.

 

[agedman]

Countries like people sin.
My family members are sinners but I love them.

I am a veteran and a patriot and will keep my lifelong vow to protect America, the country I love, from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

HankD

Countries are made up of people. And the peoples sin of this country is not merely abortion. As awful a stain as it is the pride and arogance, the haughty spirit, the lies, the promoting of evil for self advancement ... defining evil as righteous is the history of the U.S.

America has never been a Godly country.

It has been a tool of service to God, just as Babylon, just as Eygpt, just as Greece and Rome. But it is not, nor has ever been a Godly country. No claim of America being the Israel (as some have done) savior or even shelter obliges God to present the U.S. as righteous or even His freind.

Unlike the Scripture accounts of Israel and there soldiers, the U.S. can have no such claim of anointing. The U.S. was not blessed because of its righteousness. The country was blessed because God chose to make it strong for His purpose - shown typically in both world wars.

However, when the country in the early sixties purposed to remove prayer and bible reading, and embraced completely the situational ethics of expressing love, the U.S. has not been successful in completing a military campaign.

In my opinion, God removed his hand of allowing military victory from that time. For not a single conflict from Korea to the present has been completely resolved as was prior to the 60's.

So, that is the emphasis behind the question(s).

 

[Revmitchell]

It has been a tool of service to God, just as Babylon, just as Eygpt, just as Greece and Rome. But it is not, nor has ever been a Godly country. No claim of America being the Israel (as some have done) savior or even shelter obliges God to present the U.S. as righteous or even His freind.

No one does this it is a ridiculous claim

 

[HankD]

Countries are made up of people. And the peoples sin of this country is not merely abortion. As awful a stain as it is the pride and arogance, the haughty spirit, the lies, the promoting of evil for self advancement ... defining evil as righteous is the history of the U.S.

America has never been a Godly country.

It has been a tool of service to God, just as Babylon, just as Eygpt, just as Greece and Rome. But it is not, nor has ever been a Godly country. No claim of America being the Israel (as some have done) savior or even shelter obliges God to present the U.S. as righteous or even His freind.

Unlike the Scripture accounts of Israel and there soldiers, the U.S. can have no such claim of anointing. The U.S. was not blessed because of its righteousness. The country was blessed because God chose to make it strong for His purpose - shown typically in both world wars.

However, when the country in the early sixties purposed to remove prayer and bible reading, and embraced completely the situational ethics of expressing love, the U.S. has not been successful in completing a military campaign.

In my opinion, God removed his hand of allowing military victory from that time. For not a single conflict from Korea to the present has been completely resolved as was prior to the 60's.

So, that is the emphasis behind the question(s).

Is it really?

These actions above which you attribute to America were forced upon us (the Basket of Deplorables) by the marxist infiltration of our country's government.

America's sin is committed by those who put their stamp of approval on these things you mention which were never presented to "fly over" America for their approval, vote or referendum.

Hopefully with President Trump as commander-in-chief that will change and it already has begun with the appointment of Neil Gorsuch (much to the chagrin of the baby killers).

I never will approve of them (abortion, godlessness and perversion in our schools) or belittle the deplorables who deplore murder and removing God from our schools.

HankD

 

[agedman]

Look at a different view of each that you mentioned.

It depends on how you define "accomplished". If we limit ourselves to wars including the United States consider the following:

1. The Revolutionary War secured a new nation founded on the moral stance that all men are created equal. That moral stance has been tested and has had differing degrees of success and failure over the past 231 years, but it has enshrined something to aspire to that no other nation can claim.

This is a popular opinion, but the fact is that had England not treated the colonies as little children, there would have been no revolutionary war.

Fact is that the war of independance was fought as much over power and wealth and just who would benefit from the roll of government.

IF the revolutionary war was fought over a "new nation founded on (the) moral stance" as you suggest, then there would have been no need for the indian wars, the civil wars, the treatment of aliens ... that the nation would rather ignore.

2. The Civil War resulted in the emancipation of almost 4,000,000 slaves.

Really, are you certain?

Seems that even to this day "emancipation" was incomplete. Isn't that part of the politics that overrun the media and sports attention?

3. World War I prevented the Central Powers from defeating the Entente Powers, and thus redefining most of Europe. As it turned out national borders were changed. For instance, the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire gave more territory to Italy. Other nations lost or gained territory as well.

Again, relatively small border adjustments have occured throughout human history. I gave examples in the OP. However, the indigenous people remained unchanged. Even when Emperor China unified all the groups, the people remained defined by their groupings.

Remove any government, and the people are not removed. Borders may adjust, but the point in the OP is that the people of Empires such as Egypt, Greece, Rome, Babylon, China, U.S. Germany ... are not long lasting and all return. In the U.S. it will mean that groupings will eventually occupy territory much like central Europe and south east Asia.

4. World War II stopped the Nazi attempt to redraw all borders in Central Europe and Scandinavia. It also prevented the complete annihilation of Jews from Nazi-occupied territory.

Again, what is public propaganda is not usually the political policy. If it were true, the U.S. and most other power brokers would not have allowed and used the Nazi folks in developing scientific, military, and educational items and techniques.

When one considers just what nation controled Palestine, one must ask why Jews were mostly prevented from the land, what of the ship of Jews that was turned away from the U.S. and England.

No, no righteousness to be found in WWII other than that purpose of the God being used.

5. The Korean War succeeded in stopping the communist North's takeover of South Korea.

To what end? Did it resolve the conflict on the Korean pennesula?

6. The conflict in Grenada stopped Cuba from establishing a presence in the southern Caribbean.

Again, to what end? Did it resolve the conflict with the Cuban dictator?

7. The Gulf War liberated Kuwait and re-opened vital shipping lanes carrying oil. Unfortunately, the power vacuum left after Sadam Hussein was deposed provided Al Queda a base of operations.

So there was really no long lasting results, and the war was again a matter of economics.

Again, the questions ask in the OP were not resolved.

 

[agedman]

No one does this it is a ridiculous claim

Apparently you are unaware of how the Jews have used America for support and savior.

Roots of the U.S.-Israel Relationship

Perhaps you might read what Col. Jack Mohr (U.S. Army retired) wrote about the matter.

Who is True Israel?

However, your response neglected to answer the OP questions.

 

[agedman]

Is it really?

These actions above which you attribute to America were forced upon us (the Basket of Deplorables) by the marxist infiltration of our country's government.

America's sin is committed by those who put their stamp of approval on these things you mention which were never presented to "fly over" America for their approval, vote or referendum.

Hopefully with President Trump as commander-in-chief that will change and it already has begun with the appointment of Neil Gorsuch (much to the chagrin of the baby killers).

I never will approve of them (abortion, godlessness and perversion in our schools) or belittle the deplorables who deplore murder and removing God from our schools.

HankD

Hank,

Is not that which appears above the ground supported by that which is unseen under the surface?

The root of the abortion issue, the removal of bibles and prayer, ... is what I posted in which God sees - the haughtiness, the situational ethics, the unfaithfulness, the lack of thankfulness ...

These are what God focuses upon. Does not the Scriptures teach that all matters come from the heart, and proceed out of the heart except for one?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Apparently you are unaware of how the Jews have used America for support and savior.

Roots of the U.S.-Israel Relationship

Perhaps you might read what Col. Jack Mohr (U.S. Army retired) wrote about the matter.

Who is True Israel?

However, your response neglected to answer the OP questions.

That right there....
That, in my opinion, is one of the main reasons God has blessed America. No, the nation of Israel is probably as ungodly as ours, but they are STILL God's people.

But you know what they say "Delta is ready when you are"

 

[Revmitchell]

Apparently you are unaware of how the Jews have used America for support and savior.

Roots of the U.S.-Israel Relationship

Perhaps you might read what Col. Jack Mohr (U.S. Army retired) wrote about the matter.

Who is True Israel?

However, your response neglected to answer the OP questions.

Ok that doesn;t prove your ridiculous claim. Sorry

 

[agedman]

Ok that doesn;t prove your ridiculous claim. Sorry

So, mistakenly, I thought you were being honest in desiring to have proof.

Therefore, to disprove your view that "No one does this it is a ridiculous claim" I give two online sources, one from the Jews and one from an officer of the military.

Perhaps rather than making the statement that my claim is "ridiculous" you can actually contribute substance to the OP.

It is hard to carry on any intellectual conversation when all that is offered in reply is of no substance.

Beside, I made no great "claim" in the OP, rather asked the readers for their thinking.

You would rather loose the questions in a bid for what???

Perhaps you have nothing in which to offer in actually answering the questions?

That is actually excusable in comparison to your contribution to the thread thus far.

 

[agedman]

1 Peter 2:17
Romans 13:1-7
Acts 4:5-21 Specifically 18 and 19
Acts 5:40-42

Sometimes disobedience is right, such as preaching Christ when ordered not to, by the government, as Peter and John were.. I don't know of any examples of warfare in the NT. I know many OT saints did serve their country in war, such as The Israelites at Jericho, Samson, David etc.. We are to "honour the king" regardless. We are to obey our rulers, except when it is evil. For example:, we would be required to "honour" a "Hitler" but not participate in his atrocities.

You are correct.

Fortunately, the rulers of the religious righteous were not rulers of the government. So, Peter and John were not obligated to obey them, for they had no rule over them.

In China, religious freedom extends to personal practice, only. That is, believers may, on their own, practice whatever religion they desire, however they are not allowed to share, instruct, or encourage others to convert. They are sort of like Daniel was when the law threw him into the lion's den.

Regardless of the ruler or the ruler views, they are the designated ruler. They are to be given respect.

The laws that such a ruler passes may not be respected, nor obeyed.

There is a slight difference. One can give respect without giving regard to the laws of who is respected.

What then would be your answer to the questions? The "When" rather than the what.

 

[HankD]

Hank,

Is not that which appears above the ground supported by that which is unseen under the surface?

The root of the abortion issue, the removal of bibles and prayer, ... is what I posted in which God sees - the haughtiness, the situational ethics, the unfaithfulness, the lack of thankfulness ...

These are what God focuses upon. Does not the Scriptures teach that all matters come from the heart, and proceed out of the heart except for one?

In my lifetime since around the 1950's American has been portrayed ever so slowly by the "Ministry of Truth" (1984) in a biased way RE:"the haughtiness, the situational ethics, the unfaithfulness, the lack of thankfulness ..." which is a blanket untruth IMO. NOT everyone!

Fortunately Mrs. Clinton stuck her foot in her mouth with the statement "a Basket of Deplorables" ibid President Obama with "they cling to their bibles and guns" and proved they are the established aristocracy opposed to the common folk.

These common folk are certainly not sinless - all have sinned - but these are the folks who brought in President Trump to attempt to defeat the evil and wickedness of those who are now continuously and 24/7 putting down our beloved country.

We need to drain not only the political swamp but the progressive marxist press and media.

In the case of America "divide and conquer" has very clearly branded those divided.


HankD

 

[Rob_BW]

I think you need to rethink what war in the post nuclear weapons age looks like.