Millenial Exclusion, the gospel of fear

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I was told recently that Dr. Stanley supports the two salvation theory (ME). I would be very disappointed in this.

 

[TCGreek]

How do these two verses prove your point? They are completely different words. 1 Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

In 1 Peter 2:17, it's "phobeiste"; it's in both senses of reverence and dread, and it's present, middle, imperative; it's a command, and we are to keep fearing, and we do it ourselves.

2 Timothy 1:7 is the word "deilia"; it's "fearfulness". It's an old word, and it's always used in a bad sense for "cowardice". Timidity.

1. I hope you guys have a moment for a little humor. But I notice that Hope of Glory, you are on a Rescue Operation.

2. I will not bore you with the fact that deilia occurs only here in the GNT and that its cognate verb, deilao, once in John 14:27 and its adjective deilos in Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:40 and Rev.21:8. Always in a bad, unhealthy sense.

3. I am aware that a different word is used in 1Pet.2:17, and it has both a bad and positive sense (Matt 17:6; 27:54 and Lk 1:50; Acts 10:35).

4. But both deilao and phobeo are used as synonyms by Matthew (8:26; 14:26, 30), Mark (4:40, 41), and Luke (8:25). Now this is the negative side of phobeo.

5. Since deilia is only used once and negatively, but its cognate verbs are used interchangeably with phobeo/phobos, that is why I used 2 Tim 1:7, although I could have gone straight to the gospel narratives.

6. Therefore my point still stands.

 

[npetreley]

4. Well, it seems like there was a semblance of it: "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 3-4, ESV, emphasis mine).

5. Isn't that what they are doing, "denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ?"

Yes. It's why this new gospel, which isn't a gospel at all, is anathema.

 

[TCGreek]

Well please redirect me to the post number because obviously I missed your "addressing" of a "common salvation."

1. Unless you can tell me what "the faith", pistis with the definite article means, there's no sense discussing anything else.

No it's not. I am merely letting the text tell me what is being talked about instead of some sort of preconceived idea. I understand that Jude said he wanted to talk about A, but instead he is talking about B.

2. When I share my comments, they are "preconceived ideas." But when you do the same, I guess they are on the same level with the inspired writers.

3. No where does Jude define what is the "Common Salvation", but you have taken the liberty to define it (see your post #19). I hope you are implicating yourself with the "preconceived idea" label.

Again if you have answered the question of what this common salvation is if it isn't eternal salvation please again direct me to the post number so I can go back and review it.

4. Post #24.

 

[npetreley]

And yet not a single verse of Scripture I quoted nor anyone that I have found has said anything about healthy/unhealthy. That would be just another man-made addition to Scripture such as really, really, really and truly saved. :laugh:

You really don't know of scripture that says some fear is unwarranted and bad?

For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship."

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

The latter quote almost seems to be a direct blast at ME.

.

 

[Hope of Glory]

6. Therefore my point still stands.

So, they're different words that mean different things that are used in different ways, so they're the same.

That makes no sense.

I'll take a look at the verses later, as I have no time right now.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why do we have to contend for something that is free?

 

[TCGreek]

So, they're different words that mean different things that are used in different ways, so they're the same.

That makes no sense.

I'll take a look at the verses later, as I have no time right now.

1. Please, avoid the fallacy.

2. You cannot get that conclusion from the Synoptic gospel narratives: Matthew, Mark and Luke use both words interchangeably, meaning in the same way, respecting the fact that they have nuances. But don't fall for fallacies. You know better than that. I hope so.

3. In your own words you have not taken a look at the references that I have given to prove my point, but somehow you are able to dismiss what I say.

4. How does it work?

 

[TCGreek]

You really don't know of scripture that says some fear is unwarranted and bad?

For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship." "Perfect love casts out all fear.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

The latter quote almost seems to be a direct blast at ME.

1. Great choice of Scripture.

2. BTW, the words behind "fear" are phobos and phobeomai in 1 John 4, which are clearly in the negative, unhealthy sense.

 

[J. Jump]

No where does Jude define what is the "Common Salvation", but you have taken the liberty to define it (see your post #19).

Despite your admintance to Jude not defining the word you too seem to have taken the liberty to define the word as something "other than" salvation by grace through faith apart from works.

So you say that I can't define words, but you can? Isn't that what you have accussed me of? Oh yes it is.

While you are not directly defining the word you are giving it a meaning by saying that it doesn't mean salvation by grace through faith.

So unless you can show me how he "isn't" talking about salvation by grace through faith my point still stands.

 

[J. Jump]

BTW, the words behind "fear" are phobos and phobeomai in 1 John 4, which are clearly in the negative, unhealthy sense.

Yet I don't see a single verse where John says they are unhealthy or negative. I do see that if you have progressed past fear and into love that the more you progress in love the more fear is driven out, but he never says what you want the text to say. Not one time in the Greek and/or English are the words unhealthy and negative used. That would be "your" interpretation of the text. Again we can ONLY stick with what the words actually SAY. And all is says is love drives out fear. It doesn't qualify fear in any way.

 

[npetreley]

Wow, such denial. It is so obvious that the fear spoken of by John is evidence of spiritual immaturity, and is therefore inappropriate for a mature Christian.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Why does perfect love cast out fear? Because fear has to do with punishment. Why should we fear punishment? After all...

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no need to fear anything because we are not appointed to wrath, and...

31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Now THAT is good news.

One final thought...

23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

He is able to do it. We can't, but he can.

 

[J. Jump]

Why should we fear punishment?

You shouldn't if you are loving God, because if you are loving God you are keeping His commandments. And if you are keeping His commandments then there will be nothing but gold, sliver and precious stones.

However, if you are not loving God, that means you are not keeping His commandments and there is something to fear. Why do you think the author of Hebrews said it was a fearful thing to fall into the hand's of the living God? That was written to believers.

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wonder what "salvation" these "saved" folks were to receive? I love it each time you all go to the Scriptures. It's just keeps proving our points. So by all means do continue!

Who is he that condemns?

Since it says Christ Jesus I guess there are some folks that are going to received condemnation. Wonder who that could be? Hmmm . . .

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Another subjunctive which means possibility not certainty. And yes you are quite correct in that He is ABLE, but that doesn't mean He WILL.

 

[npetreley]

Wow, I've never seen such massive misinterpretation of scripture. Even my kids understand these passages better than that. Read them again. You're so far off the mark even the Hubble couldn't find your interpretation. You're subjective-happy. I'm so glad you can recognize the subjunctive (even if you ignore "he will do it"). Now try to learn what it means in a sentence.

It is Jesus who condemns... LOL. You guys crack me up.

 

[npetreley]

J. Jump, your last post was definitely the clincher. I'm out of this debate. ME proponents are under such a strong delusion they can't see the plain meaning of scripture (or even the simple words "he will do it"). I'm still cracking up about Jesus being the one who condemns. I wouldn't even know where to start ... maybe by teaching English?

Enjoy your world.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I am still realing over an earlier post that said Christ "will" be Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

 

[Amy.G]

Since it says Christ Jesus I guess there are some folks that are going to received condemnation. Wonder who that could be? Hmmm . . .

Here's the passage:

Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Rom 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

J, you surely can't be serious. God is the one who justifies. Christ is interceding for us. Why would He intercede if He condemns? You have blown yourself out of the water on this one. If you read this verse to mean Christ Jesus condemns, then you need to go back to school and learn how to read.



JJump:

Another subjunctive which means possibility not certainty. And yes you are quite correct in that He is ABLE, but that doesn't mean He WILL

Here's the verse:

1Th 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.


It doesn't mean He will???? It says right there, HE WILL. "and He will do it". It's right there. How can you say it doesn't mean He will??

You have twisted (scripturally) yourself right into a corner.

 

[npetreley]

I am still realing over an earlier post that said Christ "will" be Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

Yeah, but was it in the subjunctive? I mean, if it's in the future, are we sure He will be Lord at all, or is it just possible He'll be Lord? After all, check out this passage about Jesus...

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

See that word "might"? I guess it's only POSSIBLE, NOT GUARANTEED that Jesus might have the surpremacy. So He may not end up being Lord after all, eh?

It's really easy to make up heretical doctrines, isn't it?

 

[npetreley]

J, you surely can't be serious. God is the one who justifies. Christ is interceding for us. Why would He intercede if He condemns? You have blown yourself out of the water on this one. If you read this verse to mean Christ Jesus condemns, then you need to go back to school and learn how to read.

Thanks for explaining. I was honestly too amused by his bogus interpretation to react. I still chuckle when I think of it. I mean, that was off the wall and into the ozone.

 

[Amy.G]

Yeah, but was it in the subjunctive? I mean, if it's in the future, are we sure He will be Lord at all, or is it just possible He'll be Lord? After all, check out this passage about Jesus...


See that word "might"? I guess it's only POSSIBLE, NOT GUARANTEED that Jesus might have the surpremacy. So He may not end up being Lord after all, eh?

It's really easy to make up heretical doctrines, isn't it?

Context, Np, context!

From the American Herectical Dictionary
Context: noun. a form of scripture twisting to justify your false doctrine.