Millenial Exclusionists sound off!

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Mister Newman!

...

You cannot enter the Kingdom of God until the Kingdom of God enters you! You cannot get into Heaven until Heaven gets into you!!

...

Ok, I don't know what this is supposed to mean, if you have a scripture reference I'll say amen or no. But I KNOW that you must be born again to inherit the kingdom. HOWEVER, you still must be obedient AFTER you are born again. Unless you are going to start playing the word games like these other guys play with 'faith = faith + works' and 'believe = not continue in sin'. Once saved, always saved. I believe that and will affirm it till my soul is required of me. But there is responsibility for a child of God to live holy, and there is chastisement from a loving Father for His children who walk in darkness.

1Cor 6
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the [/B]unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

These brothers are having to be reminded of this fact. Christians who are walking in the flesh rather than the spirit will be punished. Be not deceived.

 

[Debby in Philly]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Ok, I don't know what this is supposed to mean, if you have a scripture reference I'll say amen or no. But I KNOW that you must be born again to inherit the kingdom. HOWEVER, you still must be obedient AFTER you are born again. Unless you are going to start playing the word games like these other guys play with 'faith = faith + works' and 'believe = not continue in sin'. Once saved, always saved. I believe that and will affirm it till my soul is required of me. But there is responsibility for a child of God to live holy, and there is chastisement from a loving Father for His children who walk in darkness.

1Cor 6
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

These brothers are having to be reminded of this fact. Christians who are walking in the flesh rather than the spirit will be punished. Be not deceived.

So if I'm saved, I'm saved. Amen to that. But suppose I don't live an absolutely, perfectly holy and sinless life after that. I know I don't want to do that, and I shouldn't do that, to grieve my Savior and be out of a close fellowship with Him. But, I mess up. So while a bunch of perfect Christians are either in heaven or back on earth serving in the millenial kingdom in resurrected bodies, where exactly will I be according to this interpretation?

The "slums" of heaven? Limbo? Purgatory? Hell?

And for how long?

 

[DHK]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

THE RAPTURE
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (FOR BELIEVERS ONLY)
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

THE TWO RESURRECTIONS
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

THE MILLENNIAL REIGN OF CHRIST WITH BELIEVERS
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE THE NEW EARTH AFTER THE FINAL JUDGEMENT OF THE UNBELIEVERS
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Millennial exclusion is a false doctrine, which cannot be supported by a proper expostion of Scripture. It seems to be a Baptist version of the Catholic "purgatory" which indeed is heresy. Our sins are paid for by the blood of Christ--the past, the present, the future--all of them are under the blood. If one had to pay any kind of future punishment for sins now committed in this world then by implication you would be denying the efficacy of the blood of Christ and would be believing that your salvation is by works and not by grace through faith.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Millennial exclusion is a false doctrine, which cannot be supported by a proper expostion of Scripture. It seems to be a Baptist version of the Catholic "purgatory" which indeed is heresy.

Amen!

Our sins are paid for by the blood of Christ--the past, the present, the future--all of them are under the blood. If one had to pay any kind of future punishment for sins now committed in this world then by implication you would be denying the efficacy of the blood of Christ and would be believing that your salvation is by works and not by grace through faith.

I find no scriptural support for any of this, and I find very many scriptures that oppose all of this.

Apostasy

Described
Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12

Caused by persecution
Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13

Caused by worldliness
2Ti_4:10

Guilt and punishment of
Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22

Cautions against
Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17

Shall abound in the latter days
Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3

Unclassified scriptures relating to
General references
Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6

Instances of:
Israelites
Ex 32; Num 14

Saul
1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18

Amaziah
2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27

Disciples
Joh_6:66

Judas
Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18

Hymenaeus and Alexander
1Ti_1:19-20

Phygellus and Hermogenes
2Ti_1:15

Source: Nave’s Topical Bible

 

[carlaimpinge]

Quote:

Quick! Somebody wake me up! I am having nightmares about the Baptist Board. Help! They are getting worse by the minute!

Unquote.

No response is typical. The Pacific air must have put you to sleep during kindergarten class. (Prov.26:4) Silly snippets NEVER correct BIBLICAL statements (Prov.26:5), which ALWAYS make the simple talk funny and act evasive. Some Baptists attending churches are more scriptural than others, while many are more heretical than biblical. (1 Cor.11) Bible READING and BELIEF straightens others out, and "manifests" the APPROVED. (2 Tim.2)

Have a good dsy.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good Morning.

Carl,

you say,

excluding the GOSPEL OF ETERNAL LAND INHERITANCE preached by Caleb and Joshua (Heb. 4, Mum. 13-14)

Where is Mum 13-14??

The 12 apostles DID NOT preach the gospel of the grace of God UNTIL Paul "communicated" it UNTO THEM

I disagree.

The 12 apostles did preach the gospel of the grace of God BEFORE Apostle Paul preaching. Christ given his commandment to disciples, go preach the gospel into the world same with Matt. 28:19-20.

They didn't KNOW; UNDERSTAND, OR BELIEVE the basics elements of the Pauline Gospel until after the resurrection (Matt. 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20-21

I disagree.

Disciples were finally understand the gospel after Christ's resurrection, so, they did preach the gospel of grace to the nations (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; & Acts 1:8).

There is no difference between disciples and Paul preached the gospel, both preach the same gospel.

John the Baptist CERTAINLY did not preach the gospel of grace, and NEITHER did the Lord Jesus, although they BOTH preached the gospel of the kingdom

I disagree.

Both John the Baptist and Jesus preached on Repentance - the same gospel as the disciples and Paul preached.

Does Paul preached on the kingdom? Yes, in Acts 20:25 "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more."

Clearly, it tells us, Paul did preaching on the kingdom of God. Same as Christ preached it - Matt. 4:17; and Mark 1:14-15. Christ said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Your teaching sound like as hyper-dispensationalism. I do not agree with your teaching.

All disciples and Paul were preaching the very same gospel as what John the Baptist and Jesus preached.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by DHK:

If one had to pay any kind of future punishment for sins now committed in this world then by implication you would be denying the efficacy of the blood of Christ and would be believing that your salvation is by works and not by grace through faith.
DHK

So are you saying that there is no chastisement for a Christian who sins?

 

[DeaconLew]

I believe that every believer (John 3:16, 18, 36) is saved. In other words they are born again (John 3). Just like every newborn, they do not know how to please their parents. So, over time, they learn what the parents like and do not like. If the parents are godly then they will shape and direct the child's will to be in subjection to their husbands and God (if they are a girl) or to be in subjection to God (if they are a boy). This is exactly what happens when a believer studies the bible. They learn what the Father likes and dislikes.

No child is a child because he/she has promised to obey in all points BEFORE they were born. Likewise, a born again believer has never promised to be exactly obedient to all things before he was saved. Neither has he been commanded to. However after he is saved the Father will begin training the child, so long as the child spends time with the Father.

When it comes time for allowance (which is usually given at the end of the week) the child that has tried his best to do that which that parents have asked of him will get the reward. This child may have been slightly off in some things, but sought the mercy of the parents and thus the parents were pleased, overall, with his/her behavior.
Now the child that has not been dilegent (careful) to obey in the things that the parents have commanded will not get the allowance (being rejected) even though he will seek it carefully with tears. This child knew that the parents would still feed him, cloth him and, in general, love him even though he did not obey in all points. Furthermore when he did fail he did not see the necessity to go and ask for mercy or forgiveness for the wrong doing, but instead insisted on the love that the parents had for him would ensure that he got the allowance. He was wrong.

While the parents do love the child, they cannot reward disobedience. The allowance is not a gift; it is conditional based on obdedience.

The Lord has promised to every one that loves him (keeps his commandments John 14, 15, 1John 3) he will grant to them the tree of life (Rev 22). Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he that winneth souls is wise. That tree is in the midst of the garden of God, which will be in the kingdom (Rev 2, 22). If you are not in the kingdom you will not have a right to the tree of life, hence you will not get your allowance.

This may be too simple for the "wise" to understand....
Mark 12:37... And the common people heard him gladly.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

Our sins are paid for by the blood of Christ--the past, the present, the future--all of them are under the blood. If one had to pay any kind of future punishment for sins now committed in this world then by implication you would be denying the efficacy of the blood of Christ and would be believing that your salvation is by works and not by grace through faith.

[QB]

I find no scriptural support for any of this, and I find very many scriptures that oppose all of this.

Your Scriptural "support" lies mostly from the Old Testament which is totally inapplicable. It dealt with the nation of Israel who constantly went into apostasy, and how God dealt with them as a nation. It is not how God is dealing with us today. We live in a dispensation of grace not law.

When a person becomes born again, he cannot become unborn.
When a person becomes born into the family of God, he cannot be born out of the family of God.
When a person is given the free gift of eternal life, it is eternal life. It it ceased to be eternal, by definition it wouldn't be eternal and God would be found to be a liar. Therefore it is impossible for one to lose his salvation on that one point alone. God is not a liar as some suppose.
Whe Jesus said they shall never perish. Never means never. Words have meaning. What part of never do you not understand? There is no exception clause. Is Christ a liar?

Romans 5:20-21 The law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly;
21 that as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (WEB)

Where the law was sin abounded. Where sin abounded so did grace. With the law sin reigned in death. With Christ grace reigned through righteousness to eternal life. through Jesus Christ. In other words Christ gave us a standing in righteous when we believed on him. The only way that was possible is if hhe forgived all of our sins--past present and future, which is what this passage of Scripture is talking about.
DHK

 

[carlaimpinge]

Deafpostrib,

I apologize for hitting the wrong letter button. Surely you should be able to figure out where Caleb and Joshua preached the gospel. (Try NUMBERS, ie. Num. (my mistake is Mum.)

Your disagreement with Biblical statement is your privelege. You didn't EXPOUND the prooftexts which DOCUMENT the truth, but EVADED them, as you always do. You CONTRADICTED by another prooftext, which refers to the gospel of the kingdom, which was NEVER PREACHED to the Gentiles! (Matt.24, 28)

The 12 COULD NOT PREACH the death of Jesus Christ son, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE IT, before the resurrection. (The BIBLE STATES that, not me.) That fact PROVES the gospel of the kingdom IS NOT the gospel of the grace of God. (References son, read them. Luke 18, 1 Cor.15)

**paragraph edit by Blackbird for derogatory remark**

You then changed my statement, and manipulated a NEW STATEMENT. My statement concerned the GOSPEL of the kingdom, NOT the kingdom.

No, the teaching is not hyperdispensationalism, but ACTUAL bible statements PRODUCED and taught from Pauline dispensationalism by a bible believing BAPTIST.

One last note ****edit by Blackbird****

Quote:

All disciples and Paul were preaching the very same gospel as what John the Baptist and Jesus preached.

Unquote.

When the Lord told his disciples about his death, they didn't believe it, SHOWING they didn't preach it AT THAT TIME. Simple facts. (Luke 18)

Try reading and believing the Book INSTEAD of trying to teach what you believe from the Book. Your system doesn't work.

Good day.

[ October 01, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by James Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

If one had to pay any kind of future punishment for sins now committed in this world then by implication you would be denying the efficacy of the blood of Christ and would be believing that your salvation is by works and not by grace through faith.
DHK

So are you saying that there is no chastisement for a Christian who sins? </font>[/QUOTE]The only chastisement for sin that God speaks of is in this lifetime, on this earth. You can find it in Hebrews 12. All our sins are under the blood.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--This verse applies to believers only. We confess our sins and the believer's relationship, i.e., his communion with God is restored. He never loses his salvation. That is a free gift from God, never to be lost.
DHK

 

[Debby in Philly]

So if I'm saved, I'm saved. Amen to that. But suppose I don't live an absolutely, perfectly holy and sinless life after that. I know I don't want to do that, and I shouldn't do that, to grieve my Savior and be out of a close fellowship with Him. But, I mess up.

So while a bunch of perfect Christians are either in heaven or back on earth serving in the millenial kingdom in resurrected bodies,

WHERE EXACTLY WILL I BE ACCORDING TO MILLENIAL EXCLUSIONISM?

AND HOW LONG WILL I BE THERE?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Debby in Philly:
So if I'm saved, I'm saved. Amen to that. But suppose I don't live an absolutely, perfectly holy and sinless life after that. I know I don't want to do that, and I shouldn't do that, to grieve my Savior and be out of a close fellowship with Him. But, I mess up.

So while a bunch of perfect Christians are either in heaven or back on earth serving in the millenial kingdom in resurrected bodies,

WHERE EXACTLY WILL I BE ACCORDING TO MILLENIAL EXCLUSIONISM?

AND HOW LONG WILL I BE THERE?

Don't worry about it Debby, you'll be there too. These guys who want to hang on to their former Catholic belief of purgatory are way off base. Their ain't such a thing. We will reign with Christ for a thousand years. The Bible tells us so.

DHK

 

[Debby in Philly]

Oh, I'm not worried. I'd like to hear their explanation. No one's actually come out and said WHERE and FOR HOW LONG.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

What would be the purpose of a thousand-year kingdom on earth? (2 Peter 3)

 

[DeaconLew]

Originally posted by DeaconLew:
I believe that every believer (John 3:16, 18, 36) is saved. In other words they are born again (John 3). Just like every newborn, they do not know how to please their parents. So, over time, they learn what the parents like and do not like. If the parents are godly then they will shape and direct the child's will to be in subjection to their husbands and God (if they are a girl) or to be in subjection to God (if they are a boy). This is exactly what happens when a believer studies the bible. They learn what the Father likes and dislikes.

No child is a child because he/she has promised to obey in all points BEFORE they were born. Likewise, a born again believer has never promised to be exactly obedient to all things before he was saved. Neither has he been commanded to. However after he is saved the Father will begin training the child, so long as the child spends time with the Father.

When it comes time for allowance (which is usually given at the end of the week) the child that has tried his best to do that which that parents have asked of him will get the reward. This child may have been slightly off in some things, but sought the mercy of the parents and thus the parents were pleased, overall, with his/her behavior.
Now the child that has not been dilegent (careful) to obey in the things that the parents have commanded will not get the allowance (being rejected) even though he will seek it carefully with tears. This child knew that the parents would still feed him, cloth him and, in general, love him even though he did not obey in all points. Furthermore when he did fail he did not see the necessity to go and ask for mercy or forgiveness for the wrong doing, but instead insisted on the love that the parents had for him would ensure that he got the allowance. He was wrong.

While the parents do love the child, they cannot reward disobedience. The allowance is not a gift; it is conditional based on obdedience.

The Lord has promised to every one that loves him (keeps his commandments John 14, 15, 1John 3) he will grant to them the tree of life (Rev 22). Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he that winneth souls is wise. That tree is in the midst of the garden of God, which will be in the kingdom (Rev 2, 22). If you are not in the kingdom you will not have a right to the tree of life, hence you will not get your allowance.

This may be too simple for the "wise" to understand....
Mark 12:37... And the common people heard him gladly.

Did anyone even read this??

DeaconLew

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Debby in Philly:
Oh, I'm not worried. I'd like to hear their explanation. No one's actually come out and said WHERE and FOR HOW LONG.

It's hell and its 1000 years during the millennial reign. And we should be worried if were not living as Christ commanded us. If we aren't sinning, then we need not worry.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Debbie,

There is quite a bit of disagreement. There are several ideas and several different camps.

Where do disobedient, unwatchful, fornicating believers spend their time during the Kingdom?

a) Outer Darkness,(AE Wilson, Z Hodges, C Stanley etc.)

b) Hell (The underworld, not the Lake of Fire.) (DM Panton, SS Craig, JD Faust, etc)

Mt 25:30 -
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mr 9:47 -
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, F10 shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

How long?

1000 years (The duration of the kingdom.), some believe in an "early release" I don't see it.

Mt 5:26 -
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Re 20:5 -
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

lacy

Here are some online books on the subject.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline.htm

 

[Craigbythesea]

Your Scriptural "support" lies mostly from the Old Testament which is totally inapplicable.

I referenced more scriptures from the New Testament than I did from the Old Testament. Please do not falsely characterize my data.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DHK:
The only chastisement for sin that God speaks of is in this lifetime, on this earth.

DHK,

I believed that way for years. I tried to disprove thid doctrine for two solid years. (My pastor and I almost came to blows at times.) But this question sold me. What scriptural proof do we have that your statement above is true. Is there even one verse that absolutely limits God's chastening to this life?

The deeper I studied, the more I realized that just the opposite is true. Over and over the Bible threatens us with chastening in the next life at the Judgment seat Of Christ. It is overwhelming. So overwhelming in fact that I certainly understand why so much of Christianity believes you can lose your salvation.

The Roman Catholic tradition that all "good" people go to Heaven and all "bad" people go to Hell for all eternity is not Biblical and far too simplistic.

lacy