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Millenial Exclusionists sound off!

michelle

New Member
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Michelle, todays average Christian has no idea what suffering for the Lord is. I have a feeling, though, in the very near future, we may start to find out.
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I whole-heartedly agree with you here.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Lacy, if we are not now presently suffering for our Lord, then we are not now saved and better get saved.
This is flat out backloaded, Roman-Catholic, works-salvation heresy. This would mean that the only way we know we are saved is if we are suffering.

I know I am saved because of what Christ did on the cross, what his shed blood finished. You simply cannot add assurance, by automatic good works, to the equation and retain the integrity of Free Grace salvation.

If this is what you are telling people when you witness to them, they are not getting saved. It is faith, belief, trust in Christ blood alone that can save. Plus nothing. Doubting the power of the blood and waiting until you bear some fruit (suffering, etc.) cannot save.

John 3:16 does not say, "For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in him and bears fruit and/or suffers shall have everlasting life." Not in my Bible.

Unsaved folks can suffer for Godly principals. (Ghandi, Mother Theresa, New York firemen) But only someone already saved can suffer and there works be counted as righteous. Christ in us sanctifies our works. You have the cart before the horse. God forbid we don't willfully walk in a fruitful, suffering manner according to the measure of grace we are alloted. But we must choose to do it. We must want to do it more than we want not to.

The JSOC will not be an awards ceremony for pre-programmed robots. He will judge us. And he will take into all of our works both good and bad. You tell me what reward will a Christian who is a fornicator get? That's an bad work. what reward? What reward will a believer who is a murderer or a liar or disobedient to his parents get? Those are bad works. What reward? And don't tell me a Christian can't do bad works. Otherwise we couldn't get judged for them could we.

KJV Galatians 6:2-10
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
This lean-back-and-enjoy-the-ride-you'll-automatically-suffer-with-apart-from-your-free-will, Lordship Salvation heresy is not in the Bible.

Honestly I really can't bring myself to believe that you really believe that.


Please, I emplore you, to at least get salvation right. Study the articles I posted.. Not everyone who opposes Lordship Salvation believes the hell thing. Most don't. And most aren't even Millenial Exclusionists. You are in serious error.

lacy
 

michelle

New Member
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I know I am saved because of what Christ did on the cross, what his shed blood finished. You simply cannot add assurance, by automatic good works, to the equation and retain the integrity of Free Grace salvation
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Lacy, this is what you indeed are saying and believing. I do not. Suffering comes automatically when you are saved. It is not something you look for, it is something a saved person experiences and recognizes as we share the gospel of Jesus Christ with others.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

James_Newman

New Member
God doesn't make us suffer, Marcia. We must choose to suffer. Christ chose to suffer. Do you think He was unable to come down off that cross at any time? But He didn't, praise the Lord! He stayed up there until the work was done!

Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus Christ had a goal, and that goal was more important to Him than His own life! To reconcile sinners to God was more important to him than the shame of the cross. It was His Father's will, and He did it without sinning once. Never did He murmur against the Father for the cup that was set before Him. Does this sound like us after we got saved?

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Why is Paul exhorting us to remember how Christ sacrificed himself for the 'joy that was set before him' 'lest ye be wearied and faint' if a Christian is automatically going to live holy because he loves the Lord? Because we have a race that is set before us, and we must finish this race to obtain the joy set before us.
 

michelle

New Member
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Please, I emplore you, to at least get salvation right. Study the articles I posted.. Not everyone who opposes Lordship Salvation believes the hell thing. Most don't. And most aren't even Millenial Exclusionists. You are in serious error.

--------------------------------------------------


I have Lacy, and you also have, but you are introducing false doctrine into it, by adding to the grace of God. You are confusing the descriptions in scripture of the unsaved person, and attributing that to a saved one. Like I have said, this is very dangerous, as there are many that think they are saved, when indeed they are not. I was once there, and know what I am talking about. What you are encouraging others to believe, is encouraging them to trust themselves to good works, rather than trusting Jesus Christ and giving HIM the glory for the works. You have taken the Power of the cross out of the gospel and the saved persons life by your belief, and then further insulting and mocking God's truth by calling it robotic. This is the insult to God. I do not trust in my own self to my own works, but I do trust the Lord who is in me, to guide me and lead me, and help me, and teach me and change me. I cannot do it without Jesus Christ. Without Him I can do nothing of my own self, for my flesh is weak, but He who is in me, is stronger than He who is in the world. You might want to read Hebrews 11. This also:


Romans 4

1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
.
6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17. (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20. He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21. And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform
.
22. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification
.


We are circumcised also, but not of the flesh, but of the spirit and the heart. When we are saved it is through faith, and God comes to dwell in us, and becomes the Lord over us. It is in God's power THROUGH FAITH we overcome in this flesh, not of or on our own. The saved are overcomers and all the saved will be, not because of what they have done, but by what Jesus Christ has done.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

James_Newman

New Member
Originally posted by James Newman:
God doesn't make us suffer, Marcia. We must choose to suffer.
I don't know why I said marcia, I was talking to michelle :eek:
Regardless...

When you believe that you are saved, you are saved, right? You say that it is by faith alone, and when you believed, Christ's righteousness is imputed to you and you are saved? I believe that too.

Now explain to me where your faith is if you are looking to your works for evidence that you truly believed?
 

michelle

New Member
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Now explain to me where your faith is if you are looking to your works for evidence that you truly believed?
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I am not looking to my works for evidence for my faith. I know absolutely, because the Holy Spirit has testified with my spirit. I absolutely know that I am saved and I follow the Lord's leading and conviction in my heart as I read his word, and live my life. When I am in need of repentance, He is always good to show me. When I am doing something, I should not be doing, he is good to convict me of that, and lead me in the right way. It is not something I look for, it is something that is realized, and experienced in my walk with him and to HIM I owe all the glory and praise. I trust the Lord and His power in my life, to help me in time of need, and He has been there continually for me, and I know that I can only trust him, not myself, for I can decieve my own self. He is always good to pull me out of those situations, when I fall into them. I can rightly praise the Lord and do, each and every time. I put no faith or trust in myself, or anything I do without Him. If I am not relying solely on Him in all I do, He is good to show me and convict me of that. I am sure there are other areas of my life, that need overcoming, but I trust the Lord will see me through it, because I know HE can and HE will.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

michelle

New Member
Sufferring comes automatically for those who are saved and living for God. It is not something we choose nor look for. It is part of reality and we are to rejoice in it, and be glad, because we know that we are indeed Christ's. We are not sufferring in vain, but sufferring for our Lord and for others. Jesus said this:


Luke 6

22. Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.


Phillipians 1

28. And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30. Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.


1 Peter

9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12. Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13. Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14. Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16. As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22. Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Now explain to me where your faith is if you are looking to your works for evidence that you truly believed?
If a man is truly saved, good works will be present
, but any man who is looking to his works for evidence that he is saved probably hasn't been :eek: .

saint.gif
 

James_Newman

New Member
Michelle, I pray you don't ever have to go through a Job experience. If you are appealing to your circumstances and feelings to know that the Holy Spirit is with you and blessing your life, and assuming that is the evidence of your salvation, you are going to be sifted like wheat when Satan is allowed to put his hand on you. You must be able to trust in the blood even without having any outward signs of it's effect, not because it has no effect, but because the effect is not your assurance. Your assurance is the sure word of God and nothing else. I know muslems that have twice as many good works than most of the Christians I know. Are they saved? What is working in them to produce all these good works? Is it the Muslem Spirit? If you truly looked to the standard of works set forth by Christ in the bible as your guide to evidencing a true Christian, you would not be pretending to know you were saved. You have an arbitrary line in your head that you say you will not cross (you don't even know where it is) because you are saved, and anyone that has crossed this line (wheres the line again?) is not saved by any reasonable definition of the word, because a true Christian with saving faith will feel that line when they get too close to it in their heart.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[ October 29, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: James Newman ]
 

Bartholomew

New Member
Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bartholomew:

1. Why does Dr. Bob keep calling us "the O'Harite sect"??? I've never even heard of O'Hare. :confused: But Govett, Lang, Panton, Neigbour, Faust; THESE I've read and found to teach millenial exclusion.
Dr Bob thinks Joey Faust made up the doctrine. He calls us the "Mansfield Sect" (Joey's church is in Mansfield) when he runs out of objective arguments.

I think it has a nice ring to it. I might start calling myself a "Mansfieldite". I am working in the fields harvesting the souls of men for the Lord. Seeking the Kingdom first!

It wouldn't be the first time a nasty, hateful, subjective nickname became a badge of honor.

Ac 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Lacy
</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry - you're right. "Mansfield sect". Where did I get "O'Harite" from, then? Is that what he used to call us? Whatever, I've never been to Mansfield (though I'd like to!). Just keep preaching the kingdom, brother!
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Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Sorry - you're right. "Mansfield sect". Where did I get "O'Harite" from, then? Is that what he used to call us? Whatever, I've never been to Mansfield (though I'd like to!).
I see that Joey Faust's disease is contagious—right down to the delusions and hallucinations :eek: . Any group that teaches working your way into heaven is legalism, but working your way into the Kingdom of God is holiness, should, in my personal but educated opinion, be ran out of Dodge—and Mansfield to boot!

saint.gif
 

Bartholomew

New Member
Hi Michelle,

I just saw this post of yours and think you've made a mistake in your interpretation. I've highlighted some of the words:
Originally posted by michelle:

If you are saved, you are already IN THE KINGDOM and working IN IT.

Luke 17

19. And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Lacy, as a born again believer you are ALREADY working in the KINGDOM for your Lord. Like I said, the Millenial reign is meant for Israel, NOT THE CHURCH.
Michelle, how do you get that Jesus was here talking to the church? :confused: Everything about the passage shows Jesus was talking to Pharisees. Yes, the kingdom of God was within the Pharisees. You seem to think we are confusing the church and Israel, and yet you use a passage about the Pharisees to teach something about the church! Now, personally, I can't think of any group of people that better typifies Israel than the Pharisees! If we are to come to a knowledge of the truth, we need to read what the passages say, not what we want them to mean. Now I think we are all guilty of that at times, so I might be wrong as well. But let's just look at what the passage is teaching:

The kingdom of God was withing Christ-rejecting Pharisees.

I think this means that the word of the kingdom - the seed in the parable of the sower - was within them. They'd heard Chrsit's message. But they had not acted on it. They were not bringing forth fruit. The seed was buried but hadn't germinated. They couldn't find the kingdom by observation - by looking for it - but had to be born again and bring forth fruit. And this knowledge was within themselves, for Christ's words were within them.

However, my interpretation may be wrong. But whatever the passage means, it was addressed to the Pharisees. Any interpretation that applies it not to the Pharisees but to some other is, as far as I can see, obviously wrong.
 

Bartholomew

New Member
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I see that Joey Faust's disease is contagious—right down to the delusions and hallucinations :eek: . Any group that teaches working your way into heaven is legalism, but working your way into the Kingdom of God is holiness, should, in my personal but educated opinion, be ran out of Dodge—and Mansfield to boot!
Hi Craig,
wave.gif


I've noticed that you often call this idea "delusion", "hallucination", "from the pit of hell", etc. I was just wondering, do you belive the same thing about the "standard" once-saved-always-saved doctrine? If so, I'm just interested because I've never seen you to refer to that doctrine like you refer to millennial exclusion, and just wondered why? And if you don't think "standard" OSAS is as evil, why not? At least Joey Faust is right (in your view) to apply these warnings to Christians, whereas the "standard" OSAS idea just flings them out of the window to "false professors", etc. It would just seem to me logical for you to hate Michelle's doctrine more than Lacy's.

Thanks
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Any group that teaches working your way into heaven is legalism, but working your way into the Kingdom of God is holiness, should, in my personal but educated opinion, be ran out of Dodge—and Mansfield to boot!
Any group that teaches working your way into the Kingdom is legalism, but working your way into Heaven is holiness, should, in my opinion, go kiss Papa John Paul's ring and get it over with.

Lacy
 

michelle

New Member
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Michelle, I pray you don't ever have to go through a Job experience. If you are appealing to your circumstances and feelings to know that the Holy Spirit is with you and blessing your life, and assuming that is the evidence of your salvation, you are going to be sifted like wheat when Satan is allowed to put his hand on you. You must be able to trust in the blood even without having any outward signs of it's effect, not because it has no effect, but because the effect is not your assurance.
--------------------------------------------------


Did you even read my post James? I do not think that you did, because I have not said, nor believe what you are accusing me of in the above.

This is what I said:


--------------------------------------------------
I am not looking to my works for evidence for my faith. I know absolutely, because the Holy Spirit has testified with my spirit. I absolutely know that I am saved and I follow the Lord's leading and conviction in my heart as I read his word, and live my life. When I am in need of repentance, He is always good to show me. When I am doing something, I should not be doing, he is good to convict me of that, and lead me in the right way. It is not something I look for, it is something that is realized, and experienced in my walk with him and to HIM I owe all the glory and praise. I trust the Lord and His power in my life, to help me in time of need, and He has been there continually for me, and I know that I can only trust him, not myself, for I can decieve my own self. He is always good to pull me out of those situations, when I fall into them. I can rightly praise the Lord and do, each and every time. I put no faith or trust in myself, or anything I do without Him. If I am not relying solely on Him in all I do, He is good to show me and convict me of that. I am sure there are other areas of my life, that need overcoming, but I trust the Lord will see me through it, because I know HE can and HE will.
--------------------------------------------------


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

michelle

New Member
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I think this means that the word of the kingdom - the seed in the parable of the sower - was within them. They'd heard Chrsit's message. But they had not acted on it. They were not bringing forth fruit. The seed was buried but hadn't germinated. They couldn't find the kingdom by observation - by looking for it - but had to be born again and bring forth fruit. And this knowledge was within themselves, for Christ's words were within them.
--------------------------------------------------


You are incorrect, for Jesus also said this to the scribes and Pharisees:


John 5

37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words
?


They KNEW God's word, but did NOT HAVE FAITH/BELIEF in them. They were unsaved, unbelieving and on their way to Hell - eternal damnation awaiting the Lake of Fire.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

michelle

New Member
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However, my interpretation may be wrong. But whatever the passage means, it was addressed to the Pharisees. Any interpretation that applies it not to the Pharisees but to some other is, as far as I can see, obviously wrong.
--------------------------------------------------


And again, you are incorrect, as:


2 Tim. 3

12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

David M Walker

New Member
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Sorry - you're right. "Mansfield sect". Where did I get "O'Harite" from, then? Is that what he used to call us? Whatever, I've never been to Mansfield (though I'd like to!).
I see that Joey Faust's disease is contagious—right down to the delusions and hallucinations :eek: . Any group that teaches working your way into heaven is legalism, but working your way into the Kingdom of God is holiness, should, in my personal but educated opinion, be ran out of Dodge—and Mansfield to boot!

saint.gif
</font>[/QUOTE]Craig,
Guess I have the "Joey Faust's disease" too.... I'll tell him you send your "educated" love
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