Millenial Exclusionists sound off!

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by michelle:
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We do not add to our faith. Jesus Christ does. love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle, Peter tells us to add to our faith:

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Jesus may be the author and finisher of our faith, but we indeed are to add to it. The Bible also tells us FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is dead. This isn't teaching a works salvation, but is teaching us that if our faith is real it will be shown by our works.

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Michelle, todays average Christian has no idea what suffering for the Lord is. I have a feeling, though, in the very near future, we may start to find out. Just because one is not suffering doesn't mean that they aren't saved in answer to your quote...
"if we are not now presently suffering for our Lord, then we are not now saved and better get saved."
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I guess that depends upon what you consider suffering. Suffering doesn't only mean physical such as martyrdom and physical beatings. It covers a wide range of things that we suffer for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Yet, I believe you said if we're not suffering right now we're not saved. Please explain that position. We all know as Christians we will endure a certain amount of suffering (and I'm not just speaking of physical, mental, financial, etc) but it seems as if you're trying to add to doctrine here. Further clarify your position, please.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by David M Walker:
Guess I have the "Joey Faust's disease" too.... I'll tell him you send your "educated" love

I'm sure he will be impressed.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
Jesus may be the author and finisher of our faith, but we indeed are to add to it. The Bible also tells us FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is dead. This isn't teaching a works salvation, but is teaching us that if our faith is real it will be shown by our works.

AVL1984

I agree with the plain scriptural command to add to our faith. You proved that perfectly. However let me challenge the logic of the last part of your statement.

If I have faith in Jesus, If I trust in his blood, can that faith ever be dead? This verse is addressed to folks who are already saved. It is therefore not (in my opinion) a litmus test for "True" saving faith, but rather a litmus test for right fellowship in our walk.

Faith is faith. Believing is believing. The question is what works are you believing in?

Faith that saves (Belief in Christ's atoning blood John 3:16) cannot ever be without works. It will always be eternally backed up by the works of Christ. (John 6:29)

This is faith with the Works Christ did for you!

But a believer must have faith too. (1 Jn 5:13) This after-salvation faith must have good works, or else it is dead. (We cannot rely on Christ's atoning work to ensure reward. There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.)

For reward, for assurance of fellowship, for a self test in where you are in your maturity, you must judge yourself. (1 Cor 11:31) We judge based on the work of Christ in us as we willfully yield.

This is faith with the works Christ is doing IN you if you yield yourself to the Holy Spirit who dwells within you.


Faith without works is dead. It must be divided.

lacy

 

[AVL1984]

Having faith in Jesus Christ will show forth in a Christians work unless there is sin in the way. This though in no way negates the persons "faith" as in the faith of salvation. But the one who comes forth saying they are saved and show no signs of a Godly life afterward have a dead faith according to Scripture.

Lacy, it seems you are saying one can negate their salvation because they sin, fall away from the faith whether for a short time or a long time. Am I reading you correctly? Though there remains no more sacrifice for sin, this doesn't negate the persons salvation, nor does it negate their faith in Christ for salvation.

 

[michelle]

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2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith [/B]virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
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You are putting emphasis on the wrong portion. It should be "VIRTUE" that is emphasized, and to what Peter is speaking of "ADDING" to our FAITH, to which we already have, and to which our Lord increases, since he is the founder and finisher of our FAITH.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Jesus may be the author and finisher of our faith, but we indeed are to add to it. The Bible also tells us FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is dead. This isn't teaching a works salvation, but is teaching us that if our faith is real it will be shown by our works.
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We don't add anything, as this would be adding to God's grace. Faith without works is dead, meaning, if you don't have faith, you will not have works that are justified, nor righteous in God's eyes, and if you have faith, the works will automatically follow, as it is because of your faith and love for God that you do the works without thought or boasting. Please read Hebrews 11.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
Having faith in Jesus Christ will show forth in a Christians work unless there is sin in the way. This though in no way negates the persons "faith" as in the faith of salvation.

Amen!

one who comes forth saying they are saved and show no signs of a Godly life afterward have a dead faith according to Scripture.

If they believe on Christ's atoning blood, they are saved. "Saying so" or "Godly life" notwithstanding. Indeed their faith is dead but only as it pertains to their maturity and walk, if they are born again.

Lacy, it seems you are saying one can negate their salvation because they sin, fall away from the faith whether for a short time or a long time. Am I reading you correctly? Though there remains no more sacrifice for sin, this doesn't negate the persons salvation, nor does it negate their faith in Christ for salvation.

No. I agree you that 100%. The falling away a believer can experience is not a falling away from salvation. God Forbid! Salvation is sure because the Work it is based on is sure. (The work of Christ on the cross.)

I'm saying that a believer can fall away from fellowship. (And potentially fall very hard - without affecting his eternal standing.) The fact that the Bible says emphatically that there is no more sacrifice shows that the fallen believer needs not get saved again. (Or, God forbid, look to his works to check and see if he is "truly" saved.) He needs forgiveness in a secondary sense. He already has 100% forgiveness in an absolute eternal sense but fellowship is broken due to faith without works.


I am also saying that willfully disregarding works that Christ desires to work in us, abundantly provides us power for accomplishing, and promises to abundantly reward us for, is very dangerous. The blessings, power, and light of the new covenant are exponentially greater than the Old. Likewise, the chastening of the Lord is much sorer than under the old covenant.

KJV Hebrews 10:28-31
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

lacy

 

[JackRUS]

I know that I am joining in late here, but have any of you ever read The Reign of the Servant Kings by Dr. Joseph C. Dillow? Unfortunately it is out of print, but some copies are still available.

http://www.faithalone.org/bookstore/reign.html

It is a 600+ page book on just this subject. He takes the Arminian arguments for loss of salvation and points out that the warning that certain Christians "will not see the kingdom of God" does not pertain to loss of salvation. But rather their loss at the judgement seat of Christ. The kingdom being of course His millennial reign here on Earth. He also argues that non-faithful servants will be excluded from the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as well.

Earl Radmacher did the forward. He writes this on the back cover:

"Here it is at last! For over 25 years I have been waiting for a book that would present a Biblical recognition of the doctrine of rewards as it relates to the full-orbed teaching of salvation. This book does it, and does it beautifully!...Dr. Dillow's Reign of the Servant Kings may well be the most significant contribution toward resolving the several hundred year debate between Calvinism and Arminianism."

This is a great book of extremely deep theology.

(Well, at least it was for me )

BTW Lacy, count me in.

 

[JackRUS]

Quick note however...I don't believe that Christians that don't reign with the Lord on Earth will go to either Hell or the LOF.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
I know that I am joining in late here, but have any of you ever read The Reign of the Servant Kings by Dr. Joseph C. Dillow? Unfortunately it is out of print, but some copies are still available.

http://www.faithalone.org/bookstore/reign.html

Praise God! Welcome aboard. Brother dillow's book is also still available here: This link provides a review and the table of contents.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/bookpreviews/dillow/preview.htm


Dillow teaches (like Zane Hodges, Charles Stanley, and Tony Evans) that disobedient Christians will experience a type of "outer darkness" that is outside of the Millenial Kingdom(but not Hell). It is funny though, he gets accused of believing in a "protestant purgatory" too. And for all you doubters out there, he's not KJVO. (He'd probably have "Hell" right too if he was.)

I highly recommend this book. His doctrine of salvation is clear because he knows what to do with works.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
Quick note however...I don't believe that Christians that don't reign with the Lord on Earth will go to either Hell or the LOF.

Duly noted. Have you been to any of the recent AE Wilson, Kingdom/Accountability conferences?

Lacy

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by michelle:
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I think this means that the word of the kingdom - the seed in the parable of the sower - was within them. They'd heard Chrsit's message. But they had not acted on it. They were not bringing forth fruit. The seed was buried but hadn't germinated. They couldn't find the kingdom by observation - by looking for it - but had to be born again and bring forth fruit. And this knowledge was within themselves, for Christ's words were within them.
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You are incorrect, for Jesus also said this to the scribes and Pharisees:

John 5

37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

They KNEW God's word, but did NOT HAVE FAITH/BELIEF in them. They were unsaved, unbelieving and on their way to Hell - eternal damnation awaiting the Lake of Fire.

Doesn't what you just wrote there agree with what I said above?

Also, if they were headed for the Lake of Fire (which they were), why did Jesus say they the kingdom of God was within them?

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by michelle:
[qb] --------------------------------------------------
However, my interpretation may be wrong. But whatever the passage means, it was addressed to the Pharisees. Any interpretation that applies it not to the Pharisees but to some other is, as far as I can see, obviously wrong.
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And again, you are incorrect, as:

2 Tim. 3

12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Michelle, how does 2 Timothy 3 possibly show that we can take a comment addressed to Lake of Fire-bound Pharisees but not apply it to the Pharisees but to ourselves? The fact that all scripture is given by inspiration does not prove you can take a comment to one person and say it doesn't apply to them! In fact, if the Bible really is God's word (which it is), then who are you or I to say that Jesus's comments to the Pharisees weren't meant to the Pharisees at all, but to the church? We can't. I think that verse is confusing. I might be wrong in my interpretation. But to say that it means the kingdom of God is within you and me simply can't be true because Jesus spoke it to people who weren't saved. If we just take verses and ignore the context then we'll never get it right.

Here are some other comments addressed to the Pharisees. I doubt you think any of them were really addressed to us and not the Pharisees:

Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matthew 12
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Matthew 12
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 15
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

I could go on, but I think you see my point. Please consider this. Thanks.

[ October 30, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Bartholomew ]

 

[rufus]

"Some Christians go to hell for 1000 years?

COUNT ME OUT!"

Rufus says to count him out, too.

 

[AVL1984]

Lacy, I agree with what you're saying, unless you are implying that Christians will somehow spend one day in Hell or that some Christians will be a part of "millenial exclusion".

 

[michelle]

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Lacy, I agree with what you're saying, unless you are implying that Christians will somehow spend one day in Hell or that some Christians will be a part of "millenial exclusion".
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I don't mean to be rude AVL1984, but if you had spent more time paying attention to what Lacy and others believe and are teaching, and LESS time finding things to ARGUE WITH ME about, maybe you would not have asked the above.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[AVL1984]

Michelle, the problem is that you are extremely rude, have no tact in dealing with people at any degree, and seem to want to ARGUE or tell people they are "incorrect" because they don't agree with your interpretation of scripture. Have you ever heard of the concept of "drawing out" explanations to the fullest. In this particular case, I was not addressing you in any wise, shape or manner....was I? Until you know what someone's motive is in posting a certain way, you might want to mind your own bees wax. Plain enough? Respond all you like on this thread, Michelle, I will not be responding to you.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
Lacy, I agree with what you're saying, unless you are implying that Christians will somehow spend one day in Hell or that some Christians will be a part of "millenial exclusion".

Of course that is exactly what I have been saying. However the debate I have been having with Michelle really has nothing to do with exclusion at all. She and I differ on salvation itself.

Her salvation has to have obvious, outward, works, automatically, to be "true saving" faith. In other words if you don't avtomatically get holy, then you need to believe harder "from your heart" or something. Maybe get saved again, either way you can't know whether you are saved unless you have an unspecified amount and an unspecified degree of practical righteousness.

I think that:

. . . God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I know I am saved because I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to take that which I've committed unto him against that day. The blood don't run and the rock don't move.

If you would like to debate Millenial Exclusion I'd try my best to explain it the way I see it. But at least we agree on the Biblical view of salvation.

lacy

 

[michelle]

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If you would like to debate Millenial Exclusion I'd try my best to explain it the way I see it. But at least we agree on the Biblical view of salvation.

lacy
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NO you don't. You believe a saved person can and will suffer in Hell. This is an outright denial of the grace throug faith gospel truth, to which YOU deny along with the POWER OF THE CROSS.

I say you don't look for works, they come automatically with faith. You say, one must look to their works, otherwise they will go to suffer punishment in HELL. NO different than the catholics believe, and it is HERESY.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle