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Millenial Exclusionists sound off!

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
You can't have it both ways. When you argue that no "real scholar" taught it, I show you many that did. Then you turn around and say, "See you debate just like a preterist, just quoting a bunch of scholars."

Pick a side.

You probably could find a "real scholar" that did as much research as Joey Faust on his first book. But I'll bet not many, especially in the last 50 years. I have a degree and I don't ever remember having worked that hard (traversing the USA, spending literally hours and hours in out of the way libraries)to complete anything for my degree. Scholarship comes in different forms. Sometimes it's Paul, sometimes it's Peter.
Dear Brother,

A large part of our disagreement here has to do with who is a “scholar” and who is not. The men whose names that you have supplied are not exactly noted for their knowledge of the Biblical languages or of any of the individual books of the Bible that they are referencing. As for the names that Joey Faust referenced in his book, there are very many of them, but not very many of these writers explicitly taught the doctrine of Millennial Exclusion. Most of them taught something very different. I shall post more on this matter at a latter date.

Note: Checking references is very time consuming, especially when wrong or inexact titles are referenced and when wrong page numbers of given. One of Joey’s most important references was an incorrect reference, and I sent him an e-mail asking for the correct reference, but he did not respond to my request. Incorrect references may very well be typographical and other technical errors, but running down the correct reference without the cooperation of the author can be nearly impossible. And until the correct references are learned and the material referenced is examined in context, there is no fair way to evaluate them.

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Lacy Evans

New Member
Craig:
A large part of our disagreement here has to do with who is a “scholar” and who is not.
I believe a larger part of our disagreement here has to do with who are "cracked pots who have never had any formal education in the Biblical languages or the Greek text of the New Testament"

Govett was a Fellow of Worcester College at Oxford.

WH Griffith Thomas was a co-founder of Dallas Theological Seminary.

Dr. Earl D. Radmacher (Believes in Millenial Exclusion, but not to Hell) ~ President, Professor of Systematic Theology Western Conservative Baptist Seminary ~ Portland, Oregon, was on the North American Overview Committee in charge of assisting in preparing guidelines for the NKJV in Nashville and Chicago, 1975.

Have a nice day.

Lacy
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Govett was a Fellow of Worcester College at Oxford.

WH Griffith Thomas was a co-founder of Dallas Theological Seminary.

Dr. Earl D. Radmacher (Believes in Millenial Exclusion, but not to Hell) ~ President, Professor of Systematic Theology Western Conservative Baptist Seminary ~ Portland, Oregon, was on the North American Overview Committee in charge of assisting in preparing guidelines for the NKJV in Nashville and Chicago, 1975.
I see that you have managed to post the names of three men who are not "cracked pots who have never had any formal education in the Biblical languages or the Greek text of the New Testament" but none of these men are “noted for their knowledge of the Biblical languages or of any of the individual books of the Bible that they are referencing.” But let’s take a look at these three men.

Robert Govett held only a masters degree and in his commentary on Romans he manifests his lack of both an extensive formal education and his lack of understanding of concepts that are integral to the understanding of the need for the atonement of Christ and the efficacy of it. Govett has been called “an innovative thinker” because his views of Biblical concepts are different from those of any of his predecessors. For example, on pp. 264-265 of his commentary on Romans he writes,

What is the flesh? It is fallen human nature, as bequeathed to us by Adam. It is of two parts: (1) The animal nature, with its lusts. (2) The conscience which Adam gained by sin, which is now in all his sons, commanding what is good, but overborne by the lusts.

In the renewed man are found two principles opposed the one to the other. There is the flesh, begotten of the flesh; there is the spirit (or new nature), begotten by the Holy Spirit. Adam was originally created out of the dust, a living soul. And as there was, at first, no conscience within to raise the question of right and wrong, the man and his wife were innocent. Then, against the command of God, he introduced conscience within, which inquires whether this or that act is lawful? And whether this or that temper is right? It is the entry into the man of this second principle, which gives rise to the conflict described. Just before the Flood, Jehovah says of men, and of the angels who fell in
Noah's day by becoming men, that both were ‘flesh:’ Gen. vi. 3.

The meaning of the rite of circumcision, given to Abraham, was: ' Evil, Abraham, is in your flesh; put it away.' Flesh lusts against God, and is at enmity with Him. The law of Moses, as far as it is (spiritual,' contends with the flesh; and the flesh against the law.
Paul, then, comparing his nature with the pure law of God, says: “I am fleshly." He repeats, in principle, our Lord's words to Nicodemus, the circumcised Jew: "That which is 'begotten of the flesh is flesh." And assuredly Paul was begotten of the flesh and bore its nature, as truly as he was begotten of the Spirit and was spirit. Flesh abides, even where the man is begotten of God. His plan of salvation is at last to remove, the flesh; not gradually to improve it.
Since I have been known to teach the Epistle to the Romans from time to time, I have in my personal library at home 234 commentaries on Romans, plus many other volumes on Romans, several of the former of which are multivolume works. In just the three paragraphs that I quoted above there are several concepts that are unique to Govett.

But it gets worse, much worse. Govett teaches in his commentary on Romans that the atonement of Christ was largely ineffectual, and that the regenerate man is substantially the same as the unregenerate man. Indeed, Govett teaches that the redemption of the souls of men is realized in their own personal death rather than the death of Christ, and he cites Paul’s conversion as proof of this.

To be continued . . . .

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Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
W. H. Griffith Thomas, however, was both a fine scholar and deeply spiritual man who had an excellent grasp and understanding of both Paul and his Epistle to the Romans. Indeed he wrote the very finest devotional commentary on Romans that I am aware of. And of course the multitude of absurdities and ridiculous nonsense found in Govett’s commentary on Romans is completely absent in Thomas’ work. If you and your wife have not yet read this book, delay no longer.

How could such a scholar and deeply spiritual man who wrote such an exceptionally fine devotional commentary on Romans be a Millennial Exclusionist? I don’t believe that he was. However, I am perfectly willing to change that particular assessment if you can prove that he was. And, if indeed he was, you will have a man on your team that you can be proud of. Regardless, his commentary on Romans is superb.

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brumleyj

New Member
amem preach it deafposttrib
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i totally disagree with joey fauset'teaching

Jesus warning to unbleiever/lazy servant according to matthew 24:48-51, matthew 25:26-30, matthew 25:40-46, and matthew 22:11-14. which Jesus speaking on condtional salvation.

bible does not saying that unworthy or lazy servant will suffer in torment of hell for 1,000 year then release them out of hell it does not saying about release them out of hell after judgment day. bible telling us unbleiver /lazy or unworthy servant will spent there for forever and forver after judgment day/ second coming of christ.

matthew 13:38-42 tell us that angels will coming and get unbleiver/lazy or unowthy servant and take away at second coming of christ and will cast them into lake of fire. also matthew 13:47-50 ,II thess 1:7-9.
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Craig, Did you read the quote attributed to WH Griffith Thomas (from The Principles Of Theology on page 327 of The Rod) concerning Rev 20:4-6; 12-15?

Lacy
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
bible does not saying that unworthy or lazy servant will suffer in torment of hell for 1,000 year then release them out of hell it does not saying about release them out of hell after judgment day. bible telling us unbleiver /lazy or unworthy servant will spent there for forever and forver after judgment day/ second coming of christ.
The Bible does say very plainly, if they are saved they are not cast into the Lake of Fire and their tears are washed away.


KJV Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

KJV Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 

David M Walker

New Member
Originally posted by brumleyj:
amem preach it deafposttrib
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i totally disagree with joey fauset'teaching

Jesus warning to unbleiever/lazy servant according to matthew 24:48-51, matthew 25:26-30, matthew 25:40-46, and matthew 22:11-14. which Jesus speaking on condtional salvation.

bible does not saying that unworthy or lazy servant will suffer in torment of hell for 1,000 year then release them out of hell it does not saying about release them out of hell after judgment day. bible telling us unbleiver /lazy or unworthy servant will spent there for forever and forver after judgment day/ second coming of christ.

matthew 13:38-42 tell us that angels will coming and get unbleiver/lazy or unowthy servant and take away at second coming of christ and will cast them into lake of fire. also matthew 13:47-50 ,II thess 1:7-9.
Hello brumleyj,
May I ask you if you have read "The Rod, Will God Spare It?" by Joey Faust?
http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/bookpreviews/faust/preview.htm
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Craig, Did you read the quote attributed to WH Griffith Thomas (from The Principles Of Theology on page 327 of The Rod) concerning Rev 20:4-6; 12-15?

Lacy
Yes, of course I read it. And of course, having served as a senior pastor for six years, I have in my library the book by W. H. Griffith Thomas that Joey quotes from (and I use that term very loosely). However, Joey did not include the page numbers from which he took the quotes. And Thomas’s book includes 548 pages. But of course if I misquoted W.H. Griffith Thomas like Joey did, I wouldn’t give the reader the page numbers either—after all, somebody might just take the time to check out the “quotes” and learn that W. H. Griffith Thomas did NOT believe in millennial exclusion or anything even remotely like it.

Joey Faust writes on page 327 of his book, The Rod, Will God Spare It?:

Thomas: "There is no other way of salvation, and no other merit than the sacrificial death of Christ on Calvary. But while this is true, it should be carefully noted that the Bible does not separate men merely into two classes, the saved and the lost, for it seems to reveal not only one class of saved ones, but several classes.... The highest salvation is clearly associated with what the New Testament describes as 'the Body of Christ,' or 'the Lamb's Wife,'....Yet the Bible clearly indicates that these are not the only ones saved…we read of people raised at the last resurrection, judged according to deeds done in the body, and out of this number those whose names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. 20:12-15, 21:27). Seeing that the members of the Church have long before been raised and glorified in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6), who are these mentioned as in the Lamb's Book of Life long after the first resurrection?"63

63W.H. Griffith Thomas, The Principles Of Theology (London: Vine Books,
1978). [The emphasis in bold type is Joey’s, but of course he fails to tell you that].
W. H. Griffith Thomas’ The Principles of Theology is a compendium of the Thirty-Nine articles of the Church of England. That alone should tell any reader of Joey’s book that there is something very rotten in Denmark, or, more to the point, in Joey Faust’s mind if he thinks that he found the doctrine of Millennial Exclusion in the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England. And of course W. H. Griffith Thomas was an Anglican himself. And no, I am not making up a bologna sandwich—here are the exact words, in context, written by W. H. Griffith Thomas on pages 255-256 from which Joey appropriated his quotes:

But a careful study of Scripture will reveal certain truths which may help to place the doctrine of election in a truer light. There is no doubt that all men may be saved, if only they are willing to accept Him who died for all without exception. Further, He will most assuredly save all, except those who, having heard, persistently and finally refuse to accept Him. These, having exercised their freewill, must suffer the inevitable result of such choice. Thus Christ is not only the possible, but the real Saviour of sinners, subject only and always to the power of any sinner to exercise his freewill in rejecting salvation. Joey begins quoting here, but includes three ellipses.There is no other way of salvation, and no other merit than the sacrificial death of Christ on Calvary.

But while all this is true, it should be carefully noted that the Bible does not separate men merely into two classes, the saved and the lost, for it seems to reveal not only one class of saved ones, but several classes or grades of the saved, and it is along this line that at least some relief to our intellectual perplexity may be found.

The highest salvation is clearly associated with what the New Testament describes as “the Body of Christ," or “the Lamb's wife," and the various references to the “elect" are to this community of “heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ," who are said to have been “chosen before the foundation of the world." Yet the Bible clearly indicates that these are not the only ones saved. On the contrary, there are plain statements that, in addition to the body of Christians called " the Bride," there are other communities of human beings who are saved from everlasting destruction, and yet do not, and will never, form part of the "Body of Christ." This salvation is outside of and altogether secondary to the salvation of those chosen persons who collectively make up His spiritual Church. The following passages seem to indicate these grades:

1. There are peoples of the world over whom, according to Scripture, the members of the Church of God are to reign with Christ as kings and priests (I Cor. vi. 2; Rev. xx. 4-6). It is surely impossible that these people over whom the saints are to reign are the lost.
2. Reference is made to " the nations " at Christ's coming to judgment, and as the Church or “Bride" will have been previously caught up to meet Him in the air, it is clear that those who are set on the right hand of the King and are described as blessed and invited to inherit the kingdom cannot possibly be either the " brethren " of Christ or the Church
(Matt. xxv. 31-46).
3. Then we read of people raised at the last Resurrection, judged according to the deeds done in the body, and out of this number those whose names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. xx. 12-15 ; xxi. 27). Seeing that the members of the Church have long before been raised and glorified in the first Resurrection (Rev. xx. 4-6), who are these mentioned as in the Lamb's Book of Life long after the first Resurrection ?
Where in this quote does W. H. Griffith Thomas say that naughty Christians will go to hell for 1,000 years and then be released?

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Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Dr. Earl D. Radmacher may believe in Millennial Exclusion, as do Zane Hodges, Joseph Dillow, and Robert Wilkin, but none of these men believe in millennial punishment as does Joey Faust, the most severe form of millennial exclusion.

Miles J. Stanford writes, “Back in August of 1990, Dr. Radmacher wrote to me as follows:
Have you come across the writings of Dr. Alden L. Chitwood, of Norman, Oklahoma? He has an organization called "The Lamp Broadcast, Inc." He is one of the few people doing any serious writing today on the ongoing implications of the judgment seat of Christ. He made some very helpful material available to me by A. Edwin Wilson.
It is my opinion that if many of the Lordship Salvation writers would get their heads straightened around on God’s use of rewards as a motivation for moving on to maturity in Christ, they would not need to garble the Gospel as they are doing so horribly.
Two men from a previous generation also did considerable writing in the area, namely, G.H. Lang, and Robert Govett.
Subsequently, Dr. Chitwood wrote to Miles Stanford:
I visited a church where our friend, Dr. Radmacher, was speaking. He seemed to be setting forth some of the issues I was dealing with--what I refer to as "the word of the kingdom," from Matthew 13.
Later I was given copies of his four-part series on Hebrews 12:1,2. His messages on the passage were instrumental in my writing a three-part series for my periodical Heavenly Calling, now in book form, titled Run To Win.
Miles Stanford writes,
G.H. Lang (1874-1959), in his autobiography titled An Ordered Life, gives evidence of charismatic disorder:
When some good brethren assert that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are not now available, nor intended to be so, I differ, for it is certain that I was granted the gift of "discerning of spirits" (1 Cor. 12:10) (p. 75).
At this time there came often a young man, a Copt. He was sincerely desirous of salvation, but mourned that he could not believe, greatly as he longed to do so.
It occurred to me quite suddenly to ask if he had had any contact with spiritism. He replied that his brother was a medium and that he often attended the seances. He, by going on to the Devil’s territory, had given opportunity to an evil spirit to grip and suspend his faculty of faith.
Was he sincerely willing to be relieved of his bondage? He affirmed emphatically that this was fully his desire; he longed to trust in Christ. By the authority of Jesus I commanded the spirit to depart from its victim, and forthwith he became a definite believer, and went on his way rejoicing (p. 166).
This is very amusing academic scholarship :D !

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DeafPosttrib

New Member
Lacy,

You says,

The Bible does say very plainly, if they are saved they are not cast into the Lake of Fire and their tears are washed away.
Correct. I agree. Also, I agree with Rev. 20:12-15; and 21:1-4. I have no problem them.

But, why you saying Christians shall hurt 'second death' in the first place?

Didn't you realize Rev. 20:14 is very clear telling us the lake of fire IS the second death?

Rev. 2:11 warns us very clear, if any person failed to overcome(victory), will suffer the second death, means that a person will suffering everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.


David Walker,

I already told brumleyj about that book "The Rod" by Joey Faust, lot of details that I do not agree with his teaching - long time ago.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

p.s. by the way, I don't care how smart are the professors who received diploma like Master's, Doctor's, Ph.D's, etc... on theology doctrine. I already seen their interpreting the Bible are filled with their own philosophy, and logicals too much. I do not agree with their intepreting.
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

WH GriffithThomas:

3. Then we read of people raised at the last Resurrection, judged according to the deeds done in the body, and out of this number those whose names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. xx. 12-15 ; xxi. 27). Seeing that the members of the Church have long before been raised and glorified in the first Resurrection (Rev. xx. 4-6), who are these mentioned as in the Lamb's Book of Life long after the first Resurrection ?
Where in this quote does W. H. Griffith Thomas say that naughty Christians will go to hell for 1,000 years and then be released? [Words bolded and emphasized intentionally and purposefully by Mr. Lacy Evans, the author of this post. Please feel free to question my motives for having done so, copy, etc.]

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Thomas' context is the Great White Throne. Those in question are those coming up out of Hell.(Rev. xx. 12-15 ) Thomas comes right out and says that there are some (In Hell) who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and who are not cast into the LOF. Anyone who reads this scripture honestly, without a preconceived idea of how things have to be, would think the same thing.

Ok you are correct. He says nothing here directly about Kingdom Exclusion. He simply says that some (Written in the Lamb's BOL) are in Hell during the period between the 1st Ressurrection and the GWT. He asks (Rhetorically) who these are. I guess I have the same "rhetorical" question for you.
 

michelle

New Member
--------------------------------------------------
Thomas comes right out and says that there are some (In Hell) who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, and who are not cast into the LOF. Anyone who reads this scripture honestly, without a preconceived idea of how things have to be, would think the same thing.
--------------------------------------------------


NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say this. You are reading something there, that is not there. Just because the lambs book of life is opened at the Great White throne judgement, does NOT MEAN that there are saved in death and hell. In fact, it seems more likely that the book is opened to show them that their names are not found in it.
Those whose names are found written in the lambs book of life, were either resurrected at the first resurrection (the first fruits) OR they were the saved Jews during the millenial reign. The scriptures DEMAND this interpretation.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by michelle:
Just because the lambs book of life is opened at the Great White throne judgement, does NOT MEAN that there are saved in death and hell. In fact, it seems more likely that the book is opened to show them that their names are not found in it.
Why does it "seem more likely"? Because of your preconceptions. There is nothing there at all to lead us to believe that.

"Whosover was not found" implys (In any normal syntax) that some were found. This is exactly what Thomas assumes.


Everyone who made below a 70 failed.
(Did everybody flunk? Were their none that passed? If so, is this how you would word it?)

Those who were not invited were excluded.
(Was nobody invited? Would you say it that way if nobody was invited?)

The words not on this vocabulary test will be on the next test. (Were there no words on the first vocabulary test? Does the statement not IMPLY that the 1st test has some words?)


Those whose names are found written in the lambs book of life, were either resurrected at the first resurrection (the first fruits) OR they were the saved Jews during the millenial reign. The scriptures DEMAND this interpretation.
The traditions of men, who are unwilling to reconcile God's very real and very emminent warnings to believers, DEMAND this interpretation. The Scripture is plain as day.

Lacy
 

brumleyj

New Member
david m walker,

yes deafpostrib show me book called the rod will God spare it by joey fauest? also he show me some of joey fauest teaching. i did read some of it and did not argee with joey's teaching.

2 timothy 3:16 telling us to study and examine God's word. i prefer to stay stick with God's word from bible.

lacy,

Yes God will wipe thier tears after judgment day is done that means we will not remember no more of our old things while we are live on earth. who are not saved and spent lake of fire they will still remember of thier past things forever
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Ok you are correct. He says nothing here directly about Kingdom Exclusion. He simply says that some (Written in the Lamb's BOL) are in Hell during the period between the 1st Ressurrection and the GWT.
Lacy,

Thomas does NOT say nor imply that some Christians are in Hell during the period between the 1st Resurrection and the GWT. He wrote,

3. Then we read of people raised at the last Resurrection, judged according to the deeds done in the body, and out of this number those whose names are found written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. xx. 12-15 ; xxi. 27). Seeing that the members of the Church have long before been raised and glorified in the first Resurrection (Rev. xx. 4-6), who are these mentioned as in the Lamb's Book of Life long after the first Resurrection?
Rev. 20:1. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3. and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7. When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8. and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There are very many more published opinions of Revelation 20 than there are verses in it. Rev. 20:4 – Rev. 22:21 presents to the serious scholar of Revelation more contextual problems than all the contextual problems in the rest of the New Testament. Many commentators gloss over these problems, and, to a great extent, gloss over Rev. 20:11-15. R. H. Charles, however, in his 870 page commentary tackles these problems head on. Anyone who truly wants to understand the Great White Throne Judgment and who is present and when it occurs should most definitely read Charles’s commentary.

R. H. Charles, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John. T & T. Clark, Edinburgh, 1920. 2 vols.

This commentary is a standard work on Revelation and has been continually in print ever since it was first published in 1920 (a great rarity for a commentary on Revelation) and it can be purchased from many sources, both new and used, and it can be found in most university libraries, as well as Bible college and seminary libraries. It is expensive to purchase, even used, but it is a very valuable work and is indispensable for anyone who wishes to get their feet wet studying Revelation.

As for W. H. Griffith Thomas, he asks, “who are these mentioned as in the Lamb's Book of Life long after the first Resurrection?” And he does not answer the question. One possible answer, however, is that they are those who will be saved during the millennium and who will remain dead and un-resurrected till the Great White Throne Judgment, and who will then be resurrected from the dead (NOT hell) and stand before the Judge along with the unsaved persons who will be resurrected from Hades. No responsible exegete of Revelation has ever even suggested that the Apostle John was writing here about naughty Christians who had been in hell for one thousand years :D :eek:
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Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
"Whosover was not found" implys (In any normal syntax) that some were found. This is exactly what Thomas assumes.
It is what Thomas assumes, but he does NOT assume that they belong to the group that was in Hades. Also, there are many scholars who agree with this view put forth by Michelle,

Just because the lambs book of life is opened at the Great White throne judgement, does NOT MEAN that there are saved in death and hell. In fact, it seems more likely that the book is opened to show them that their names are not found in it.
According to this view, the Book of Life was opened to show that God and His standards of judgment have not changed but have remained consistent. There is no implication at all that any additional names were found in it.

The bottom line here, however, is that you are reading into the words of W. H. Griffith Thomas just like you are reading into Revelation 20 and other passages in the Bible. Please stop posting in defense of Millennial Exclusion and Punishment until you have had an opportunity to study the issue. Please also stop quoting quotes from Joey Faust’s book until you have personally verified that the quotes are accurate and not taken out of context. Please also study the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England so that you can learn what W. H. Griffith Thomas really believed and why he believed as he did.

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Lacy Evans

New Member
Please stop posting in defense of Millennial Exclusion and Punishment until you have had an opportunity to study the issue.
,said Craig condescendingly. I think it would be a safe assumption that I have studied the issue more and own more books and articles on the subject by Govett, Lang, Pember, Panton, Stanley, Hodges, Radmacher, Dillow, Craig, Seiss, and Faust, than any person debating it on the BB. My Govett collection alone takes up two shelves on my bookcases. I have kingdom books that have been out of print for 100 years. I have preached the Kingdom as a pastor for three and 1/2 years and as an associate Elder before that for 10 years.

I might be proven wrong, but it will not be because of a lack of study on my part.

Please also stop quoting quotes from Joey Faust’s book until you have personally verified that the quotes are accurate and not taken out of context.
I never quoted Joey quoting anyone. I simply asked your opinion of the quote. We obviously differ on our opinions. Actually you solved that problem by proving the Thomas quote was correct and in context.

You show a bunch of off-topic quotes from the internet and assume that it proves something. What does Lang's opinion on the operation of spiritual gifts have to do with anything we are discussing? Why don't you stop posting until you have a relevant, objective argument with scriptural precedents to back it up.

Your brother in Christ, Lacy
 

michelle

New Member
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Why does it "seem more likely"? Because of your preconceptions. There is nothing there at all to lead us to believe that.

"Whosover was not found" implys (In any normal syntax) that some were found. This is exactly what Thomas assumes.
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It does not imply anything other than what it says. Why does it leave me to believe that? Take a look at what else I said to which you IGNORED:

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In fact, it seems more likely that the book is opened to show them that their names are not found in it.
Those whose names are found written in the lambs book of life, were either resurrected at the first resurrection (the first fruits) OR they were the saved Jews during the millenial reign. The scriptures DEMAND this interpretation.
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It is not an assumption Lacy. It is based upon the truth in the scriptures - the whole counsel of God. We are told to rightly divide the word of truth. YOu are not doing this regarding this topic, not even close, but rather relying upon the teachings of men, rather than what the scriptures reveal.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

michelle

New Member
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The traditions of men, who are unwilling to reconcile God's very real and very emminent warnings to believers, DEMAND this interpretation. The Scripture is plain as day.
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Oh really? Please then, show us all. You have yet to do this, and never will, because it isn't there.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 
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