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Millennial Kingdom
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What changed your mind?
Tom Butler
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Bob can answer for himself, of course.
I was pre-trib, pre-mil until my pastor challenged me to find a scripture passage that taught it in an unequivocal way, not subject to any other interpretation.
I couldn't find it.
I am now historical pre-mil, but I might not be tomorrow.
Regarding the MK, I'm reading all the opinions here with interest.
I was pre-trib, pre-mil until my pastor challenged me to find a scripture passage that taught it in an unequivocal way, not subject to any other interpretation.
I couldn't find it.
I am now historical pre-mil, but I might not be tomorrow.
Regarding the MK, I'm reading all the opinions here with interest.
I began to read the Bible--the whole Bible--as scripture. I felt God speaking to me in passages that were supposed to be for a different time, a different dispensation. I began to sing (or chant) the Psalms. I began to pray for longer periods of time--asking for less and listening more. I began to meditate upon a single verse, phrase, or word of scripture. I began to look for God in other people, in nature, in the stars and galaxies of the night sky. I began to accept my life, my family, my circumstances. I began to scale back and want less. I began to count my blessings. I began to give of myself to others. I began to see what the career ladder and materialism had taken from me. I began to not be afraid to read and study Christian classics outside of the Baptist church. I began to recite the Jesus Prayer. I began to look for things, people, and situations for which to thank God in my prayers. There is more. I could go on. The change just came. Some told me it was the change of my circumstances. But I believe it is God working in my life through the person of the Holy Spirit. I believe it is God preparing me to be a grandparent and preparing me for heaven. I believe our theology is tied more to things of this earth and less to the unknown of the life to come in heaven. You reach a point in your life when points of theology just do not matter that much. What matters is your soul and being in the presence of God, praying and feeling Jesus in the same room, walking among strangers of different race, gender, age, language and sensing the Spirit of God in them. You begin to humble yourself, to empty yourself, and become filled by the Holy Spirit. And, at such a time, points of theology just do not matter any more.
Jesus Prayer
Breathe.....Phrase
Inhale.......Lord Jesus Christ,
Exhale.......Son of God,
Inhale.......Have mercy on me,
Exhale.......A sinner.
...Bob
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It seems easier to see what that passage in Ezekiel could not be, rather than what it is. Because of all the lasting changes achieved by Christ much of what is described here in Ezekiel could never be a future reality.
Also it could not have been historical: Zadok never had the priesthood. There never was a priest-prince as described here, who must offer sin sacrifices (and that is the term used, the same as in the Pentateuch) for himself as well as others. There never was such an unusual apportionment of the land to the various tribes, etc.
I believe that the interpretation is that this whole vision was meant to be didactic, the clue being in the recurring phrase, "That they may be ashamed". This is what the Jews could have had if they had followed wholeheartedly God's direction. And yet, God foreknew - fore-ordained even - otherwise.
As far as I can see this is the interpretation that fits best. Also I am convinced that Paul's teaching on the temple in 2 Cor.6 (drawing upon Ezekiel) has bearing here.
An additional thought: It seems that there are two temple scenarios in the last chapters of Ezekiel: the what-could-have-been temple of chapters 40-46 and the spiritual temple of 47 (and already spoken of in some of the chapters before 40). The first is the temple which dimensions are in the wall, the other Whose dimensions are in the water. Both are visionary, but the last describing our present reality in Christ.
Interestingly, we also have those two scenarios in other places in Scripture, like Isaiah 48 (a passage that Paul also draws upon in 2 Cor.6). Verses 18-19 of Isaiah 48 hearken back (from our vantage point) to the what-could-have-been blessings for the OT Jews, Ezek. 40-46. Verses 20-21 match up to the Living Water from the Rock Temple - Christ, Ezek.47.
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Who did I leave out?
Not offended Thomas, as it is not true at all, and besides you have no idea why I started this thread, so please don't pretend you do. These are sincere questions that I have. Your contribution to this thread has been merely to judge motives and say "go find the answers". If that is the best you can do, there is no further point in you contributing to this thread. This is a discussion forum and I am looking for discussion, so kindly keep to the OP.
Are you saying there is a singe Scripture passage to support amillenialism, postmillenialism, or historical pre-mil, and if so which?
In all honesty, Bob, this post sent up red flags. The "emptying" of yourself, points of theology not mattering, looking for God in others, nature, etc sound like the post-modern ecumenical new age wave moving across the world. I'm hoping it's just the way the post came across and I misunderstood.I began to read the Bible--the whole Bible--as scripture. I felt God speaking to me in passages that were supposed to be for a different time, a different dispensation. I began to sing (or chant) the Psalms. I began to pray for longer periods of time--asking for less and listening more. I began to meditate upon a single verse, phrase, or word of scripture. I began to look for God in other people, in nature, in the stars and galaxies of the night sky. I began to accept my life, my family, my circumstances. I began to scale back and want less. I began to count my blessings. I began to give of myself to others. I began to see what the career ladder and materialism had taken from me. I began to not be afraid to read and study Christian classics outside of the Baptist church. I began to recite the Jesus Prayer. I began to look for things, people, and situations for which to thank God in my prayers. There is more. I could go on. The change just came. Some told me it was the change of my circumstances. But I believe it is God working in my life through the person of the Holy Spirit. I believe it is God preparing me to be a grandparent and preparing me for heaven. I believe our theology is tied more to things of this earth and less to the unknown of the life to come in heaven. You reach a point in your life when points of theology just do not matter that much. What matters is your soul and being in the presence of God, praying and feeling Jesus in the same room, walking among strangers of different race, gender, age, language and sensing the Spirit of God in them. You begin to humble yourself, to empty yourself, and become filled by the Holy Spirit. And, at such a time, points of theology just do not matter any more.
Jesus Prayer
Breathe.....Phrase
Inhale.......Lord Jesus Christ,
Exhale.......Son of God,
Inhale.......Have mercy on me,
Exhale.......A sinner.
...Bob
Having said that, there had to be something specific that changed your eschatology, you just don't arrive so to speak without research and study.
What is commonly understood among dispies is there will be lost people in the MK.
minnesota slim
New Member
Hi,
My name is Rick and this is actually my first post on this board. It's a real pleasure to meet you all.
I became convinced that a future millennial kingdom was just not the plain teaching of the New Testament. Jesus is coming again and there's going to be the resurrection of the just and the unjust, followed by judgment. The resurrection is the key eschatological event which will put an end to death forever (1 Cor. 15), so how can there be another future age wherein death will exist? The resurrection signals the moment when the creation itself will be renewed (Rom. 8) albeit by the fiery melting down of this current world, replaced by a new heavens and a new earth (2. Pet. 3). Where does a millennial kingdom fit in here?
In short, I think it's only one particular interpretation of Rev. 20 that would compel people to even think such a future kingdom will exist. It's not so much that I am an Amillennialist, and feel I have to hold to some Amillennial system, as I am solidly "Anti-Future Literal Millennial Kingdom".
This excellent article touches on these things in much more detail....
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/problems-with-premillennialism/
My name is Rick and this is actually my first post on this board. It's a real pleasure to meet you all.
I became convinced that a future millennial kingdom was just not the plain teaching of the New Testament. Jesus is coming again and there's going to be the resurrection of the just and the unjust, followed by judgment. The resurrection is the key eschatological event which will put an end to death forever (1 Cor. 15), so how can there be another future age wherein death will exist? The resurrection signals the moment when the creation itself will be renewed (Rom. 8) albeit by the fiery melting down of this current world, replaced by a new heavens and a new earth (2. Pet. 3). Where does a millennial kingdom fit in here?
In short, I think it's only one particular interpretation of Rev. 20 that would compel people to even think such a future kingdom will exist. It's not so much that I am an Amillennialist, and feel I have to hold to some Amillennial system, as I am solidly "Anti-Future Literal Millennial Kingdom".
This excellent article touches on these things in much more detail....
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/problems-with-premillennialism/
The post was not for you.
But, I think you received the post as it was intended. You did not misunderstand . . . you just do not agree.
Red flags are good. I am sure many were sent up during the first century. God is not limited to any specific theology or eschatology, and God will bring this world to an end in his way and by his time. And I believe it really does no good to concern ourselves with how he will do this. I trust God.
The "emptying" of yourself, points of theology not mattering, looking for God in others, nature, etc sound like the post-modern ecumenical new age wave moving across the world.
My, my--have you included all the ghosts and demons?There had to be something specific that changed your eschatology, you just don't arrive so to speak without research and study.
Sure of yourself, aren't you? The something that changed was emptying myself, listening to the Holy Spirit, and being filled with his teaching--after spending a lifetime thinking I know the answers.There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare
Hamlet (Act I, scene v, lines 167-168).
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare
Hamlet (Act I, scene v, lines 167-168).
Peace, brother.
...Bob
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I am no expert on the Millennium, but I understand it as this;
First there is the Rapture. The dead in Christ will rise, followed by living saints who are changed.
The tribulation begins, at the end a great army will come against Jerusalem. The Lord will return with the saints and set foot on Mt. Olives. The mountain will divide providing a great valley for a remnant to escape. The army will pursue and and be swallowed up (Rev 12:16). This is sort of a repeat of the Jews coming out of Egypt. There will be many physical changes to the earth, a river will flow out of Jerusalem to the Dead Sea which shall become fresh with many fish. Life span will once again be long.
The nations will be unsaved, but must come to worship each year (Zec 14:16-18). The saints will judge the nations.
After the 1000 years Satan will be loosed and deceive the nations, coming against the Jews living in unwalled cities, the saints living in a camp. The Lord will destroy them with fire. Satan is cast in the lake of fire, the unsaved are raised, judged, and cast in the lake of fire.
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Welcome to our gathering. It is nice to hear from another amillennial in this forum.
Jackie Gleason was great in that movie.
...Bob
In a sense it was since I started the thread and was looking for feedback.
I'm sorry to hear that. I believe I'm on solid ground in disagreeing.
I completely agree with all of that except for concerning ourselves on how He will do it. He told us about it in His Word for a reason. God is limited to truth He has decreed.
Not sure what your point is, but much of what you mentioned is found in new age and eastern mysticism. I know...my sister was involved in it.
Eschatology only appeared in the way you mentioned with Ezekiel, Daniel and John. I'm afraid looking for God in others, in nature, "emptying yourself" doesn't explain intricate details of eschatology. This comes from studying God's Word and the different viewpoints on eschatology. There must be a reason why we believe what we believe.
Here is a nice song for this thread.
...Bob
Creed, sung by Rich Mullins.
Lyrics of Creed
Photo of Rich Mullins
Wikipedia article on Rich Mullins
Lyrics of Creed
Photo of Rich Mullins
Wikipedia article on Rich Mullins
...Bob
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This is my last comment with you.
I believe there is no point in attempting to identify or explain Christian eschatology, which I see as the invention of man and not uniformly supported by scripture. I believe our energy and efforts should be directed to spreading the gospel of Christ (Matt. 28:16-20; The Great Commission).
I appreciate it if you would not take my comments out of context and affix some label on them. My personal theology is my theology and not your labels. That, you see, is the error of eschatology. In order to make a point, we have to tear down what may be sacred to someone else. I see God in other people, I see God in nature, and I see God in the stars and galaxies of the night sky. I believe what I believe and that is what makes me who I am. It is wrong of you to tear down what I hold sacred. As the OP, you do not own the thread nor do you own what people write in the thread.
We do not know how this world will end, nor can we take a small portion of scripture and chisel out conclusions that are anything but crystal clear. The Holy Spirit will instruct those who need instruction. I believe it is best to acknowledge what scripture says and does not say about the earth's end. I believe all that we can do on this matter is to trust God.
...Bob
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So be it.
...yet you state you are amillenial, which is a doctrine of man and not uniformly supported by Scripture. While we should spend effort and energy in the Great Commission, nowhere does Scripture imply we are to spend all of our energy and efforts on this. Plenty of end time discussion in Scripture for a reason.
Scripture has much to say about the Earth's end, well actually it's death and resurrection.
You still have not answered Amy's question, btw, which was "what changed your mind" from going dispensational premil to amil.
Hi slim,
Welcome!
I read the article in the link.
One thing I noticed is that John 5:25 although pointed to and commented upon, is not quoted as part of the context.
Without the exact wording it IMO remains nebulous in spite of the comment:
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Since the hour is coming and now is, it seems to me then that Jesus here is speaking of the death of our spirit life, our separation from God spiritually which was initiated in Adam.
Deliverance from physical death presumably to follow at another time:
2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
No matter what we believe in terms of eschatology, doesn't, can't and won't affect God's multi-tiered plan for the life/end-of-life of this entropic material universe.
Romans 8
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
HankD
minnesota slim
New Member
Hank, I didn't see until just now that you had responded to my post. I can't respond now in detail, but will try to later.
Peace!
Rick
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