saturneptune
New Member
The comparison is not valid. Minimum wage is a government mandated wage. Union pay is an agreement between a union and an employer.
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Minimum wage
- Thread starter seekingthetruth
- Start date
So you think that if the minimum wage were to be tripled tomorrow that every union would not immediately begin negotiations for an increase in union wages?
saturneptune
New Member
No, none would because they are not related. The gap would narrow, but one has nothing to do with the other. If we allowed the market to set the wages, then there may be some relation.
On top of that, union wages are not set in stone. If circumstances of the economy or the company become dire enough, then renegotiation is necessary for any jobs to exist. We saw that with the auto industry a few years ago, and presently the Postal Service, which is not a federal job in the sense of pay and benefits. These are negotiated by Postal Management and various unions. These are not unions in the true sense of the word, as they cannot strike, but do have collective bargaining. When the existence of the Postal Service is at hand, benefits and wages must be adjusted through renegotiation. The vast majority of Postal revenue does not come from tax dollars.
To tell the truth, the last time I was employed with a company that dealt with minimum wage with part of its work force, the rate was around $5. I had no idea it had increased so much.
The point is, whether union negotiated, or the company offers someone so much to perform a job, it is a function of the market. Minimum wage is an artificial setting of wages by the government which does nothing to contribute to the growth of the economy or the running of a free market.
In looking at the post on this thread without checking the profiles, it is obvious to me the ones who have never worked in the private sector and the ones who are producers.
The average person hasn't the foggest idea of what the average net profit is in running a business' The av is around 5% and if you get 10 you've cut a fat hog' Good Ole Boys are not usually producers. Government never produced a dime.
The average person hasn't the foggest idea of what the average net profit is in running a business' The av is around 5% and if you get 10 you've cut a fat hog' Good Ole Boys are not usually producers. Government never produced a dime.
For the people saying that minimum wage isn't meant to be a living wage, I'm reading stuff on Cornell's law site and other places that seem trustworthy and while there seems to be some disagreement over the initial purpose of a minimum wage, it appears at least a good likelihood and there's really no question that the modern use for it is to provide a living wage.
Not a "standard of living" since it still keeps minimum wage earners well below what the poverty line is continued, but an honest living wage, meaning you can survive on it. You won't be able to if you aren't extremely careful and you won't have a whit extra, but you shouldn't starve in the streets on it. That's why some states have higher minimum wages...because the basics in those areas are higher.
For the person who asked me if I really thought a teen mowing my lawn or babysitting should get minimum wage...well, not exactly. Mowing my lawn, if I HAD one, would probably turn out to be more than minimum wage if they spent an hour on it, which would be a decent sized lawn. I'd pay well over that. For a babysitter? Depends on the person and on my kid. I rarely used them. If it was a teen I trusted trying to make a few extra bucks and my kids were at an age where they needed general supervision and not care, I'd probably pay less than minimum wage, especially if they were eating and stuff. If the kids were younger and needed more care, I'd pay more.
But right now...I have two kids that joined my family a few years ago. They have that thing that a few here claim do not exist...oh yeah, mental health issues! They require constant supervision and I'd not trust anyone with them that wasn't a professional and not just any professional, they'd have to be familiar with what my kids have and how to work with them and be willing to do so. The last time I talked to someone when I was considering an evening out with my husband, I offered her $20 per hour.
That is more than I make, though I have/can make more at certain times.
I've worked a few different jobs, some by the hour and some as an independent contractor or staff, but paid by the article and not by my time. My pay in different states and different jobs or even the same work but for other people can vary drastically. For example, I wrote a $150 article in an hour. That's a nice hourly wage. I've taken three day to write a $15 article, because I needed to do a lot of research in order to be able to understand and make no factual errors in what I was writing. I've worked minimum wage jobs in health care, I've worked health care that pays higher. I recently gave up most writing (long story) and my husband makes the majority of our income, but I like working so I go and get paid one set amount, and my day can vary in how much I actually work. It still is the same amount.
I've known a wide variety of living standards, so I don't think of my perception as narrow. I've bathed in creeks and fished for food/grew my own stuff, I've been homeless, lived in big cities, lived in tiny towns, lived in wealthy areas, lived in the middle, lived in dirt poor areas.
Yeah, I tend to enjoy the variety this world has to offer. :flower:
I still have to say that it's only fair that a person receive a living wage, and that if the price of minimal survival exceeds minimum wage, then minimum wage should increase. I'd love the see the stupid "levels" taken away, since what is purported to be poverty level really isn't, it's just people thinking they need stuff that's convenient, not needed.
It sounds great and wonderful to say everyone in the family can help out, but that's not true. Where I live, you can't work without a school permit unless you are 16. Your grades have to be a certain level and your hours are limited.
Most anything is considered child labor. I don't think a 9 year old should have to quit school to help the family earn enough money to survive, but I also see no reason why a 9 year old can't be expected to help the family earn money in, say, a family business or by doing odd jobs.
In some areas of the world, that is the culture. That is how they survive, yet places like the USA butt in and call it child labor, when families have been surviving like that for centuries, then the places get boycotted and the kids actually do end up starving because of our "kindness."
On the other hand, if we don't keep the minimum wage a livable one, I think the number of sweat shops and the amount of negative child labor will rise. (and yes, there are sweatshops in the USA, I've been in one)
There's no reason it shouldn't be a living wage and there's no reason those who get put out of work because of it shouldn't be able to get welfare. This country is just stupid in how they manage money. Nobody has to lift a finger to get food stamps, yet they have to in order to get cash benefits. Isn't it ALL government money? No common sense kicks in when a couple never works yet continues having kids like crazy and get supported by government money. There are tons of stupid surveys and studies done that cost a ton of money and aren't needed. The government doesn't need to be paying mobile (and often scamming) medical/dental units to schools to give children on Medicaid fillings and such and get reimbursed truckloads of money...and if you look that one up, you'll see a MAJOR scandal being uncovered just within the last week of mobile clinics being accused of just such, and in one case, I've spoken with parent of a child who received unneeded treatment from the day it happened and heard from her again after the scandal of these things came to light.
Nobody needs to fly first class just because they work for the government, jobs being filled by illegals aren't honestly "jobs no American will take" and yes, I've worked on of them in a field with a friend because we needed the money...and the guy paid the Mexicans $2 an hour and paid us minimum wage. HMMMMMM I know PLENTY of people without jobs who would be glad to have them IF they were available.
The economy would support a minimum living wage just fine if all the idiocy and theft and scams were paid attention to and reduced, along with government programs that aren't needed, even if they're nice and do good...doesn't mean they're NEEDED.
Not a "standard of living" since it still keeps minimum wage earners well below what the poverty line is continued, but an honest living wage, meaning you can survive on it. You won't be able to if you aren't extremely careful and you won't have a whit extra, but you shouldn't starve in the streets on it. That's why some states have higher minimum wages...because the basics in those areas are higher.
For the person who asked me if I really thought a teen mowing my lawn or babysitting should get minimum wage...well, not exactly. Mowing my lawn, if I HAD one, would probably turn out to be more than minimum wage if they spent an hour on it, which would be a decent sized lawn. I'd pay well over that. For a babysitter? Depends on the person and on my kid. I rarely used them. If it was a teen I trusted trying to make a few extra bucks and my kids were at an age where they needed general supervision and not care, I'd probably pay less than minimum wage, especially if they were eating and stuff. If the kids were younger and needed more care, I'd pay more.
But right now...I have two kids that joined my family a few years ago. They have that thing that a few here claim do not exist...oh yeah, mental health issues! They require constant supervision and I'd not trust anyone with them that wasn't a professional and not just any professional, they'd have to be familiar with what my kids have and how to work with them and be willing to do so. The last time I talked to someone when I was considering an evening out with my husband, I offered her $20 per hour.
That is more than I make, though I have/can make more at certain times.
I've worked a few different jobs, some by the hour and some as an independent contractor or staff, but paid by the article and not by my time. My pay in different states and different jobs or even the same work but for other people can vary drastically. For example, I wrote a $150 article in an hour. That's a nice hourly wage. I've taken three day to write a $15 article, because I needed to do a lot of research in order to be able to understand and make no factual errors in what I was writing. I've worked minimum wage jobs in health care, I've worked health care that pays higher. I recently gave up most writing (long story) and my husband makes the majority of our income, but I like working so I go and get paid one set amount, and my day can vary in how much I actually work. It still is the same amount.
I've known a wide variety of living standards, so I don't think of my perception as narrow. I've bathed in creeks and fished for food/grew my own stuff, I've been homeless, lived in big cities, lived in tiny towns, lived in wealthy areas, lived in the middle, lived in dirt poor areas.
Yeah, I tend to enjoy the variety this world has to offer. :flower:
I still have to say that it's only fair that a person receive a living wage, and that if the price of minimal survival exceeds minimum wage, then minimum wage should increase. I'd love the see the stupid "levels" taken away, since what is purported to be poverty level really isn't, it's just people thinking they need stuff that's convenient, not needed.
It sounds great and wonderful to say everyone in the family can help out, but that's not true. Where I live, you can't work without a school permit unless you are 16. Your grades have to be a certain level and your hours are limited.
Most anything is considered child labor. I don't think a 9 year old should have to quit school to help the family earn enough money to survive, but I also see no reason why a 9 year old can't be expected to help the family earn money in, say, a family business or by doing odd jobs.
In some areas of the world, that is the culture. That is how they survive, yet places like the USA butt in and call it child labor, when families have been surviving like that for centuries, then the places get boycotted and the kids actually do end up starving because of our "kindness."
On the other hand, if we don't keep the minimum wage a livable one, I think the number of sweat shops and the amount of negative child labor will rise. (and yes, there are sweatshops in the USA, I've been in one)
There's no reason it shouldn't be a living wage and there's no reason those who get put out of work because of it shouldn't be able to get welfare. This country is just stupid in how they manage money. Nobody has to lift a finger to get food stamps, yet they have to in order to get cash benefits. Isn't it ALL government money? No common sense kicks in when a couple never works yet continues having kids like crazy and get supported by government money. There are tons of stupid surveys and studies done that cost a ton of money and aren't needed. The government doesn't need to be paying mobile (and often scamming) medical/dental units to schools to give children on Medicaid fillings and such and get reimbursed truckloads of money...and if you look that one up, you'll see a MAJOR scandal being uncovered just within the last week of mobile clinics being accused of just such, and in one case, I've spoken with parent of a child who received unneeded treatment from the day it happened and heard from her again after the scandal of these things came to light.
Nobody needs to fly first class just because they work for the government, jobs being filled by illegals aren't honestly "jobs no American will take" and yes, I've worked on of them in a field with a friend because we needed the money...and the guy paid the Mexicans $2 an hour and paid us minimum wage. HMMMMMM I know PLENTY of people without jobs who would be glad to have them IF they were available.
The economy would support a minimum living wage just fine if all the idiocy and theft and scams were paid attention to and reduced, along with government programs that aren't needed, even if they're nice and do good...doesn't mean they're NEEDED.
The minimum wage is an affront to the Constitution and personal liberty, besides being useless. It is none of the government's business how much myself, and another private party agree for me to work for....
STUPID that a person can work for FREE (volunteer), but cannot work for less than the minimum wage. That is just dumb.
STUPID that a person can work for FREE (volunteer), but cannot work for less than the minimum wage. That is just dumb.
(For the purpose of discussion, lets suppose the minimum wage is $10 - for easy math)
So if someone mows your lawn an it takes an hour, you would pay them at least $10. But suppose they took an hour and half (because they are slow) would you pay them $15, or should they only be paid for the time it should have taken. That decision should be left up to you - not the govt.
So you are saying that pay should be based on the responsibility required.
But let me ask you this- would you pay a teenager and an adult the same amount?
But you just said that you might pay less than minimum wage based on the job. Partially based on the fact it would be hard for you (as the employer) to pay that amount.
It is no different for the small businessman. His payroll could be up to 50% of gross income.
No, the pay for a job should be based on the responsibility of the job as well as several other factors.
seekingthetruth
New Member
First off, i despise unions. They are simply a legal way to extort money from companies, and workers. They are socialist in nature and destructive in practice. Just ask the thousands of former UAW workers in Michigan how they feel about the union now that the union drove their jobs elsewhere.
Secondly, I have worked union jobs with The Ironworkers Union ($16/hr), The Carpenter's Union ($18/hr), and the Sheetmetal Workers Union ($14/hr), and none of them paid any better than a non-union job.
Besides, it's kind of silly for me to just sit on my rear and wait for a helper to come and grind a peice of steel for me when there is a grinder right at my feet. But that is a union rule.
So dont even try to tout the "union label" to me. It will fall on deaf ears.
John
Last edited by a moderator:
I'll rant a tad about this topic as well. Min wage is one of those things that sound great in theory but end up pretty bad in practice. Just think, for every $1 you raise min wage your adding to the cost to every product you have to purchase. Now the food we have to buy at the supermarket is now more expensive since your having to pay the guy who picked the food more, the guy who packaged the food more, the guy who trucked the food over more, the guy who unpacked the truck and loaded the shelves more, the checkout person more, etc. Now prices of food have gone up, so the government says "We need more tax because we have to pay more for welfare since food is more expensive and what we have isn't enough." Also now the companies have to lay off people because they aren't making enough money since now their labor costs and fixed materials costs have gone up. So now the government has to raise taxes to pay for more unemployment. So now the minimum wage person is paying more for everything and is being taxed more than they were before as well. Not only that but now the market is flooded with tons of skilled labor that's been laid off taking minimum wage jobs since that's all that's available... so now your skilled labor is underemployed and your minimum wage person is out of a job.
Robert Snow
New Member
Good posting! :thumbs:
Robert Snow
New Member
Simplistic viewpoint at best.
Robert Snow
New Member
Since, as a good Christian, I know you don't want to be guilty of telling lies, you must have checked out hundreds of thousands of minimum wage earners to come to this conclusion. Otherwise it's nothing but opinion.
Robert Snow
New Member
I think you are just jealous; he sounds more mature than you do.
Robert Snow
New Member
I worked at a shop here in the Houston, Texas area a couple of years ago where the welders make close to $30/hr.
That's what happens when all unions are vilified.
I've worked with many people over the years who hate church and will not attend. When asked why they usually relay some horrible event that took place in a church they were familiar with, and now they view all churches through that lens.
Same way with unions. Some people look only at the most corrupt example of union behavior and assume that all unions are exactly like that one.
seekingthetruth
New Member
What is simplistic is your socialist belief that raising minimum wage actually makes people better off.
When in fact, all it does is make it cost more to be poor.
John
seekingthetruth
New Member
This statement is no suprise from you. And it is no suprise to me that a teenager with idealistic opinions, and who has never worked at a real job would agree with you.
John
seekingthetruth
New Member
It must have been a NASA shop. My wife is from that area and we looked into the possibility of moving there to be close to her family. I have worked out of that area off and on since the 80's, welding pipe offshore for Brown & Root, and Offshore Pipeline, Inc....as well as a couple of refinery maintenance companys.
On my last trip down there, I updated my safety card, updated my welding certifications and was ready to go. I got offered a job in a shop building industrial marine equipment in Channel View making $14/hr. I got offered a job with a company in Deer Park for $16/hr, but that one was refinery work and they wanted to send me to Torrance, California, and I had a pregnant wife.
I am not saying that your $30/hr welding job doesnt exist, what i am saying is that it is not the norm. And if it is a union job I wouldnt take it if it paid $50/hr.
John
The welders in the plants make 30 dollars an hour; certainly NOT union. The welders with their own trucks make even more, around the fifty dollar mark.
Unions are great, if they are a VOLUNTARY worker ran coalition that is designed to protect each member of the group. But there is not a such thing, anymore. Now, you have nothing but thugs, and FORCED unionization, which is a spit in the face to not only the workers rights, but the company owners as well. N
NE should be forced to join a union for ANY job, nor should ANY company be REQUIRED to use union labor. That is just sickening.seekingthetruth
New Member
The welders in the plants make 30 dollars an hour; certainly NOT union. The welders with their own trucks make even more, around the fifty dollar mark.
Unions are great, if they are a VOLUNTARY worker ran coalition that is designed to protect each member of the group. But there is not a such thing, anymore. Now, you have nothing but thugs, and FORCED unionization, which is a spit in the face to not only the workers rights, but the company owners as well. N
Very good point. Rig welders (ones with their own truck) used to make $75 and higher per hour.
But now fuel and other consumibles have tripled in price, and, today a rig welder is lucky to get $30/hr. I saw many ads in the Houston area wanting rig welders and offering $25 to $28/hr. I guy cant pay for fuel and insurance at that rate.
The last time I was in the Houston/Pasadena area there were some nice 4 cylinder Miller and Lincoln rigs with trailer and boxes, torch, ect for sale for around $3000, which is dirt cheap. Why? Because the money isnt there anymore.
I am telling you the wages for skilled workers has dropped while the minimum wage has increased the cost of living.
John