Missing verses?

[Ed Edwards]

It is hard to stay on topic,
there really are not any missing verses.
There are, however, apparently some verses
that got ADDED to the Holy Scripture
and show up in the various King James
Versions (KJVs).

God repeated Himself in His Holy Bible
on the most important things. So even
if what was added is pulled out, there
is no suffering of the MEANING of God's
Written Word. It is the MEANING that is
sacred, it is the MEANING that is inerrant,
it is the MEANING God wants us to get, not the
words used (thus it could be in Greek or
any language that we understand, it is still
the Holy Written Word of God.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
It is hard to stay on topic,
there really are not any missing verses.
There are, however, apparently some verses
that got ADDED to the Holy Scripture
and show up in the various King James
Versions (KJVs).
--------------------------------------------------


If you believe this to be true Ed, and others, then to be obediant to the Lord, and what he has said concerning his word of truth, then you should all REJECT the King James Holy Bible and warn others of the omittions. You should not touch it with a ten foot pole, nor should you recommend it to others. Not to mention, why would you want to?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

Correction: Warn others of the "additions" not "omittions" in the above.

 

[michelle]

Ed,

You also left out context in your little word search, unlike I did, when I gave the reasons for my concerns in the NIV's overusage of the words "the Christ" being used a while back. Word searches do nothing, without understanding and looking to the CONTEXT.


With your attitude about the KJB, you should outright reject it, if you are to be obediant to the Lord, and if you love HIM and his word and others.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

Well Ed,


You are free to believe <attack deleted> God who cannot even provide HIS WORD OF TRUTH to you error free, and perfectly in your own language, and who does not care one iota about his word in a translation. I however, will not EVER go there in that state of belief. If I cannot trust what God has said about his word, and concerning his word, and promises about that, I will then not be able to trust anything else he has to say. This is a faith issue, and one many are revealing are lacking in in this issue, and sadly. What you need to realize and ask yourselves is this? When will it then end? How can you be sure? How is this a good witness to those who are lost, and do not believe God has done this to begin with, but merely believe the Holy Bible is only contrived of by men, and not God? You do not think they will sense your <attack deleted>? Oh, they will. They most definately will, and you will unfortunately be speaking into the air, and without the power of God through your faith <attack deleted> in this issue.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ January 25, 2005, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

[AVL1984]

Michelle, you still have yet to post one iota of evidence that the MV's are indeed missing verses, and that the KJV did not add them. To claim someone has no faith is your own opinion. To claim they do not or will not have the power of God is again your opinion, and without merit.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Michelle, try not writing in such bombastic language, so hard to read and appreciate your stance. This "go on believing in your powerless God" stuff is not appealing to anyone except maybe those who hold your precise point of view. Just some advice, which you may take or leave of course.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Here's some proof that the MV's are missing a verse:

Between Mt. 27:49 and 27:50 the main group of the "earliest and best" manuscripts (i.e., Aleph B C L) have: "But another man, when he had taken a spear, pierced his side, and water and blood came out."

If these are the best source documents, why isn't this verse in the Bible?

(Answer: these are not the best source documents here.)

Please also note that manuscripts copied in the 15th century are more accurate than these "earliest and best" manuscripts here, and if they are more accurate here, they just might be more accurate in other places as well.

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[gb93433]

Michelle:

Where are the other two letters to the Corinthians and the letter to the church at Laodicea? Missing?

Of course we know that the KJV saw fit to include the apocrypha. Are those deuterocanonical for them? The KJV 1611 has added a lot more verses than the KJVO's claim the MV's have removed. So the KJV 1611 (by its addition to scripture) is not in obedience to scripture according to the KJVO's.

 

[Bluefalcon]

Is there a problem with Mt. 23:14 in different editions of the KJV? My MacSword module doesn't have it, but my Online Bible module does.

I think there is strong evidence for the verse's inclusion, even though its essence is found elsewhere (cf. Mk. 12:40; Lk. 20:47). BTW, just becuase the message of a verse is found elsewhere doesn't mean we should omit it just because a few MSS have done so. If it's original, it should stay in our Bible, period.

The verse, according to the vast majority of documents, was originally located between Mt. 23:12 & 23:13 (i.e., 23:14 came before 23:13, but a few MSS have it after 23:13, and evidently the one making up verse numbers followed those).

Anyway, because of its location, and due to the same beginning words of consecutive verses, the verse was most likely omitted by accident due an error caused by homoioteleuton, i.e., an early scribe wrote "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because" -- and then his eye skipped to the exact same words of the next verse and continued writing, but thus omitting all the material in between, i.e., Mt. 23:14. So many smaller things are proven to have been omitted this way, not just whole verses, BTW.

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[HankD]

If you believe this to be true Ed, and others, then to be obediant to the Lord, and what he has said concerning his word of truth, then you should all REJECT the King James Holy Bible and warn others of the omittions. You should not touch it with a ten foot pole, nor should you recommend it to others. Not to mention, why would you want to?

I can’t speak for Ed, but personally I would say that we cannot know for sure which words/verses are added and which missing in a general comparison (except as you indicate from a faith decision/choice which in and of itself requires evidence "I have a perfect Bible I can hold it in my hand"). In fact this has been a problem solution within the church from around the 2-3rd centuries, the autographs having perished, the Apostles being gone and no way to verify the apographs and their translations which multiplied very quickly.

There have been those who have said the solution lies in “Onlyism” which totally dismisses the question of missing words/verses and proclaims without conclusive evidence that God has preserved His Word perfectly in a certain translation.

The application of this theory was true of the Itala, the Peshitta and especially the Latin Vulgate all of which it can be said "I have a perfect Bible I can hold it in my hand".

Now the KJVO have propounded this same theory concerning the KJV in spite of the several hundred years of corrections to the English text (which BTW supposedly corrects the very source (Greek Hebrew) from which it was translated,The Latin Vulgate making the same claim).

Today various KJV Bibles can be acquired which differ from one another in hundreds of places and just as those before them they play the ostrich and "hide their heads in a hole" concerning these contradictions claiming a higher knowledge and/or a superior faith (usually by innuendo but sometimes directly) eventually some of them even questioning the salvation of others who don't agree.

The KJVO and wanabes can not come to grips with the facts that they have the very same problems (granted to a lesser degree) with variants, additions and deletions within the closed loop of the KJV English texts as do the MVs and the apographs from which they were sourced. Again to a lesser degree because of the invention of the printing press.

Here are the historical facts:
1) There are several Revisions (1613, 1629, 1638, 1744, 1762, 1769, 1853) and Editions (Oxford, Cambridge, Nelson – Oxford and Cambridge both published First Editions in 1611) of the KJV, all differing.
2) All revisions and editions differ from one another.
3) The “autograph” KJV has been lost (circa 1647AD) with no way to confirm the veracity of the subsequent corrections and current differences.


HankD

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
I can’t speak for Ed, but personally I would say that we cannot know for sure which words/verses are added and which missing in a general comparison (except as you indicate from a faith decision/choice which in and of itself requires evidence "I have a perfect Bible I can hold it in my hand"). In fact this has been a problem solution within the church from around the 2-3rd centuries, the autographs having perished, the Apostles being gone and no way to verify the apographs and their translations which multiplied very quickly.

--------------------------------------------------

Oh yes we can know for sure! Here is what God has said about it:


Hebrews 4

12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


This is just one, of many verses that inform us of this truth, that we can and DO KNOW.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
Of course we know that the KJV saw fit to include the apocrypha. Are those deuterocanonical for them? The KJV 1611 has added a lot more verses than the KJVO's claim the MV's have removed. So the KJV 1611 (by its addition to scripture) is not in obedience to scripture according to the KJVO's.
--------------------------------------------------


Well, if this is true, then you should reject the KJB and warn others of it, rather than compromising with what you believe to be an error, and additions to the word of God, to which he clearly warns NOT TO DO. Otherwise, one shows not only hypocricy, but disobediance to the Lord along with various other inconsisitancies to which are harmful and dangerous.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by michelle:
You can blow all the hot air you so desire, with my stand on faith, and the witness of and by the Holy Spirit of this truth as being "blind faith", but my faith is founded upon the scriptural truth and the witness of the Holy Spirit with my spirit.

Actually, it is you who is blowing hot air with the false doctrine of KJVOism. It shouldn't be difficult for you to provide scriptural support for KJVOism, yet you are unable to. You go on an on about how KJVOism is scriptural truth, yet you can't provide scriptural support. You continue with unsubstantiated claims (such as your current false claim that "mv's deleted" from scripture), and when confronted, you fail to provide any support for your claims. In fact, the more you post, the more you end up refuting your own assertions.

Now, please provide scriptural support for KJVOism. This is my 54th request.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This thread will be closed on page five without further notice.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
Michelle, try not writing in such bombastic language, so hard to read and appreciate your stance. This "go on believing in your powerless God" stuff is not appealing to anyone except maybe those who hold your precise point of view. Just some advice, which you may take or leave of course.
--------------------------------------------------


It wasn't meant to be "appealing" but rather "convicting" or "edifying".


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
Now, please provide scriptural support for KJVOism. This is my 54th request.
--------------------------------------------------

As I have said, it has been abundantly supplied to you - you have ignored it. I can't help you any more in this than I already have. It is now up to you. Sorry.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[AVL1984]

For Michelle's benefit...This verse isn't missing in the NIV, nor does the meaning change from that of the KJV. If it does, please, pray tell, show us where. You can post verses, but others can provide the same verses from other translations. It proves nothing, Michelle. Absolutely nothing.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to the dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by Bluefalcon:
Is there a problem with Mt. 23:14 in different editions of the KJV? Yours,

Bluefalcon

I am going to look through my many 1800 and a few 1700 KJV's that I own and see what they have. In the mean time FYI from e-sword:

Mat 23:14

(ALT) "How horrible it will be to you*, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you* shut off the kingdom of the heavens before the people, for _you*_ do not enter, nor do You* allow the ones entering to enter.

(ASV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.

(CEV) (SEE 23:13)

(Darby) (OMITTED TEXT)

(DRB) Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment.

(EMTV) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the kingdom of heaven before men; for you do not enter, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

(ESV) (OMITTED TEXT)

(GB) Wo be vnto you, Scribes and Pharises, hypocrites: for ye deuoure widowes houses, euen vnder a colour of long prayers: wherefore ye shall receiue the greater damnation.

(GNT) Οὐαὶ ὑμῖν, γραμματεῖς καὶ Φαρισαῖοι ὑποκριταί, ὅτι κλείετε τὴν βασιλείαν τῶν οὐρανῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων· ὑμεῖς γὰρ οὐκ εἰσέρχεσθε, οὐδὲ τοὺς εἰσερχομένους ἀφίετε εἰσελθεῖν.

(HCSB) ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and make long prayers just for show. This is why you will receive a harsher punishment.]

(KJV+) (1161) Woe3759 unto you,5213 scribes1122 and2532 Pharisees,5330 hypocrites!5273 for3754 ye devour2719 widows'5503 houses,3614 and2532 for a pretence4392 make long prayer:4336, 3117 therefore1223, 5124 ye shall receive2983 the greater4056 damnation.2917

(KJV-1611) Woe vnto you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; for yee deuoure widowes houses, and for a pretence make long prayer; therefore ye shall receiue the greater damnation.

(KJVA) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I will leave this open if this kind of post can continue.