Mistaken views held by Mainstream Believers

[Silverhair]

No.

(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Wesley you have to look at the context of the verse if you are going to understand what is meant by the words you put in bold, " I never knew you:"

Of course God foreknows all people, He's God. He's omniscient. Do you think there is anything that He does not know?

Jesus was not saying He did not know of them but that He did not know them as saved individuals.
Example the religious leaders of His day and the false preachers we have in ours.

Look what it says in Mat 7:21-22.

 

[Marooncat79]

That is just a man-made comment. Boettner & Sproul seem to be the source of the false view.

Or

Romans 10:10-14 ie How can we call upon whom we have not believed

 

[Silverhair]

Or

Romans 10:10-14 ie How can we call upon whom we have not believed

Context will help you not make the error that you have.

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

As Paul is pointing out quite clearly, we need to send preachers so people can hear the message and believe the message and then call out to the Lord and be saved.

See how context makes the misunderstanding go away.

Case in point was your use of a single verse to support your view when the context shows the error of your view.

That is consistent problem I see with those of the C/R religion. They will pull verses out of context and attempt to build their theology around them when just reading the verse in context will clear up their misunderstandings.

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes! According to the Bible, INDIVIDUALS (pronouns tell the story):

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

This post is so clear. I do not think anyone could have a problem with this.

 

[Silverhair]

This post is so clear. I do not think anyone could have a problem with this.

Well since God knows all people then it is clear that He foreknows all people. Glad you agree that it is so obvious.

 

[Zaatar71]

Well since God knows all people then it is clear that He foreknows all people. Glad you agree that it is so obvious.

All people are not foreknown by God. Those whom He foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of the Son.
Rom.8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified
The non elect are not;
Foreknown
Predestined
called
justified
glorified
No matter how many times you seek to avoid scripture, the scripture stands firm. Those spiritually dead [Nekros] spiritual corpses, who are elected by God, are quickened by the Spirit of God just as this sequence of actions by God unfolds. God has purposed to save a multitude that no man can number, and nothing can stop it.
Isa.46:
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

You cannot change this SH, so why would you try ? Can you not see how it is a wonderful blessing? why would anyone want to seek to diminish this great truth? it is right here in scripture, perhaps today is the day you turn the corner and rejoice with those who rejoice!

 

[Silverhair]

All people are not foreknown by God. Those whom He foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of the Son.
Rom.8:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified
The non elect are not;
Foreknown
Predestined
called
justified
glorified
No matter how many times you seek to avoid scripture, the scripture stands firm. Those spiritually dead [Nekros] spiritual corpses, who are elected by God, are quickened by the Spirit of God just as this sequence of actions by God unfolds. God has purposed to save a multitude that no man can number, and nothing can stop it.
Isa.46:
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

You cannot change this SH, so why would you try ? Can you not see how it is a wonderful blessing? why would anyone want to seek to diminish this great truth? it is right here in scripture, perhaps today is the day you turn the corner and rejoice with those who rejoice!

Yes the bible is clear and it would help if you did not bring your obvious bias into the text, but you did and that is what causes you to misread the text.

First mistake is that you still think God "elected" a select group before creation.

Second one, you want to limit who God can foreknow "All people are not foreknown by God." Is your god not omniscient?

God knows all those that will freely trust in His son and those that do trust in His son are predestined to be conformed to the image of His son. Just as the text shows us.

Those that will trust will be called, justified and glorified. Not because they are your pre chosen "elect, but because the gospel message is the means used to call people to Himself.

Third error is that you will have to justify your "spiritual corpses" with the fact that both Cain and Abel were able to make real choices in regard to God.
Abel drew near to God and Cain was given the choice by God.
Rather odd for those "spiritual corpses" you speak of.

So I have no problem understanding the text just as it is written and I do not have to read some man-made philosophy into it.

 

[Dave G]

Ephesians 1:4 is a choosing which precedes election which follows one's faith.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians telling them that their choice as God's children, and their gifts of eternal life ( which is to know God and His Son ) and the salvation from God's wrath that comes with it, were before the foundation of the world. God's choice is their election. The calling of His elect, by the power of the Holy Ghost and through the preaching of God's word, comes in this life.

True faith, which is a product of one's being called and is a fruit of the Spirit, is "of Christ" ( Who authored and finished it for them ) ...is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of being elect and being called;
It is also the reason why God's children persevere through all their trials and tribulations in this life.

Ephesians 1:3 is choosing which is the same as election, which all preceded one's faith, my friend.
Please read all that Paul had to say on this subject in his letters to the churches.

May God bless you.

 

[Dave G]

Not Biblical. Calling precedes election.

Again, calling is directed towards a specific people.
It follows election.

Matthew 22:14, For many are called, but few are | elect. |

Many indeed are called of the Jews, but this is not the same "calling" as Paul preached.
As Romans 10 tells us, there is a remnant among the Jews...

As the parable of the wedding teaches us, many are called, but few elect to respond.
The reason for this, is because the elect have obtained that which Israel was seeking for:

Salvation.

Please see Romans 11.

 

[Silverhair]

Paul wrote to the Ephesians telling them that their choice as God's children, and their gifts of eternal life ( which is to know God and His Son ) and the salvation from God's wrath that comes with it, were before the foundation of the world. God's choice is their election. The calling of His elect, by the power of the Holy Ghost and through the preaching of God's word, comes in this life.

True faith, which is a product of one's being called and is a fruit of the Spirit, is "of Christ" ( Who authored and finished it for them ) ...is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of being elect and being called;
It is also the reason why God's children persevere through all their trials and tribulations in this life.

Ephesians 1:3 is choosing which is the same as election, which all preceded one's faith, my friend.
Please read all that Paul had to say on this subject in his letters to the churches.

May God bless you.

The first step toward a correct understanding of the Biblical doctrine of election is the recognition that the election of men is comprehended only in Christ; outside of Christ there is no election of any man. Elect in the Son pg 17

The phrase “in Christ” indicates union with Christ, a state entered into by faith, union with Christ is given as the condition for God’s blessing of the Church. We see this in Eph_1:1 as Paul is addressing "the saints & faithful in Christ Jesus", this letter is sent to those that have trusted in Christ Jesus through Pauls teaching. Act_18:19

One of the spiritual blessings specified as among every spiritual blessing (Eph_1:3) with which the Church has been blessed is being chosen in Him (Eph_1:4). Now if God has blessed the Church with every spiritual blessing as a consequence of its being united to Christ, and election is one of those blessings, then that means that election is conditional on union with Christ through faith by which that union is established.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, calling is directed towards a specific people.
It follows election.

That is a rather illogical statement.

If one is already in Christ then why the calling?

And we we not to preach the gospel, the power of God for salvation, to all people?

 

[Van]

Mistaken view:
1) Ephesians 1:4 teaches God chose individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Actually God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the foundation of the world, and therefore He chose us corporately when He chose our Redeemer individually. That is the meaning of "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

We are chosen individually for salvation, not before creation, which is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10, but during our lifetime, when God credits our faith as righteousness, thus we are chosen through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Those that claim, there is no individual election must claim being chosen for salvation is not our election to salvation. In other words, an absurdity. Many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes the bible is clear and it would help if you did not bring your obvious bias into the text, but you did and that is what causes you to misread the text.

I do not think that happened at all.

First mistake is that you still think God "elected" a select group before creation.

Yes God has set His love on the elect before time. I will post verses for others who enjoy the scripture;
2 tim1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Silverhair does not seem to embrace this truth at all. This grace was given to the called ELECT, before the world was. perhaps he looks at sites that oppose truth so he skips over clear verses like this, Eph1.

Second one, you want to limit who God can foreknow "All people are not foreknown by God." Is your god not omniscient?

No one limits God. God foreknows those He has purposed to save, out from among mankind. Romans 8 is totally clear.

One reason for your confusion is you do not begin to understand the difference of omniscience, and biblical Foreknowledge. It is two different things

God knows all those that will freely trust in His son

Yes, psalm 14 tells us it is not one!
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So your manmade ideas do not match the biblical teaching at all.

and those that do trust in His son are predestined to be conformed to the image of His son. Just as the text shows us.

The text says nothing about these mystery men who you suggest trust the Son...there are none that do.

Those that will trust will be called,

This is not found in scripture. If you intend to devise your own brand of salvation you can say what you want. I and others will stick to the text.

justified and glorified. Not because they are your pre chosen "elect,

If you deny the truth of election, it casts some doubt on where you stand, does it not? Election is clearly taught in both Ot. and NT.
If you dismiss it, I think you need to study a bit more.

but because the gospel message is the means used to call people to Himself.

at least you got this right!

Third error is that you will have to justify your "spiritual corpses" with the fact that both Cain and Abel were able to make real choices in regard to God.

Cain was a reprobate. God had saved Abel. It was the work of God in the heart, not choice of man that saved.

Abel drew near to God and Cain was given the choice by God.

God saved Abel, Cain remained a rebel.

Rather odd for those "spiritual corpses" you speak of.

Abel was given life. he went from death to life.

So I have no problem understanding the text just as it is written and I do not have to read some man-made philosophy into it.

You have many serious problems from what I can see. I am not here for that. I am here to learn and help others see truth. You are a bit contentious and it does not seem that you can interact with scripture properly. Maybe some others can help you out of this slump and help you come to truth. Truth is not for everyone but maybe God will send help your way.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes God has set His love on the elect before time. I will post verses for others who enjoy the scripture;
2 tim1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Silverhair does not seem to embrace this truth at all. This grace was given to the called ELECT, before the world was. perhaps he looks at sites that oppose truth so he skips over clear verses like this, Eph1.

No one limits God. God foreknows those He has purposed to save, out from among mankind. Romans 8 is totally clear.

One reason for your confusion is you do not begin to understand the difference of omniscience, and biblical Foreknowledge. It is two different things

Yes, psalm 14 tells us it is not one!
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So your manmade ideas do not match the biblical teaching at all.

The text says nothing about these mystery men who you suggest trust the Son...there are none that do.

If you deny the truth of election, it casts some doubt on where you stand, does it not? Election is clearly taught in both Ot. and NT.
If you dismiss it, I think you need to study a bit more.

Election to salvation is the theory of the C/R. The election of Israel by God did not mean that all of Israel was saved. And what do we see with Abraham, he believe God before he was considered righteous.

The C/R view of elect B4 creation is bogus but you seem comfortable with that man-made religion.

Cain was a reprobate. God had saved Abel. It was the work of God in the heart, not choice of man that saved.

Cain had a free will unless you think God was being disingenuous.

God saved Abel, Cain remained a rebel.

When did God save Abel, before or after he showed his trust in God via the offering he made?

You have many serious problems from what I can see. I am not here for that. I am here to learn and help others see truth. You are a bit contentious and it does not seem that you can interact with scripture properly. Maybe some others can help you out of this slump and help you come to truth. Truth is not for everyone but maybe God will send help your way.

You have way to many problems due to your religious views from what I see. The C/R philosophy has been determined for you so you do not have the ability to make real evaluations of scripture as that would require a free will which your philosophy says you do not have.

I have pointed you to the truth but you continue to deny the clear word of God. But as you said the truth is not for everyone. Some would rather hold to false teachings from the 4th century because it gives them the ability to boast in their being so special that God picked them out B4 creation.

It is sad but true, pride goes before the fall.

But God is merciful and perhaps He will enlighten you yet.

 

[Zaatar71]

Election to salvation is the theory of the C/R. The election of Israel by God did not mean that all of Israel was saved. And what do we see with Abraham, he believe God before he was considered righteous.

The C/R view of elect B4 creation is bogus but you seem comfortable with that man-made religion.

Cain had a free will unless you think God was being disingenuous.

When did God save Abel, before or after he showed his trust in God via the offering he made?



You have way to many problems due to your religious views from what I see. The C/R philosophy has been determined for you so you do not have the ability to make real evaluations of scripture as that would require a free will which your philosophy says you do not have.

I have pointed you to the truth but you continue to deny the clear word of God. But as you said the truth is not for everyone. Some would rather hold to false teachings from the 4th century because it gives them the ability to boast in their being so special that God picked them out B4 creation.

It is sad but true, pride goes before the fall.

But God is merciful and perhaps He will enlighten you yet.

Silverhair denies the realities of election and predestination. He does not understand plain verses like 2tim1:9, romans 8:29-30, Eph.1 1-14, and many others. Instead he suggest that all who hold the truth of God's elective program are somehow mistaken. All the Confessional churches would have "missed it". To each his own

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair denies the realities of election and predestination. He does not understand plain verses like 2tim1:9, romans 8:29-30, Eph.1 1-14, and many others. Instead he suggest that all who hold the truth of God's elective program are somehow mistaken. All the Confessional churches would have "missed it". To each his own

Well since the C/R churches preach a philosophy from the 4th century of course I oppose it. I cannot help it if you do not correctly understand the clear word of God.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Wesley you have to look at the context of the verse if you are going to understand what is meant by the words you put in bold, " I never knew you:"

Of course God foreknows all people, He's God. He's omniscient. Do you think there is anything that He does not know?

Jesus was not saying He did not know of them but that He did not know them as saved individuals.
Example the religious leaders of His day and the false preachers we have in ours.

Look what it says in Mat 7:21-22.

Yes, God is aware of all!

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, God is aware of all!

Have a problem with the word foreknowledge Wesley?

God can be aware of all things and just have a total disregard to what happens, is that how you see God. Is He just some aloof God that yawns and says I have better things to do with my time?

 

[Paleouss]

Post #10 seems to accept the things means all the things without ever addressing the issue of 1 Corinthians 3:1, with Paul speaking in the same way he spoke to men of flesh, using spiritual milk. No answer as to why Paul used spiritual milk. And no answer as how soils 2, 3 and 4 were able to understand the spiritual milk of the gospel. I will address "foolishness" in my next post.

Greetings again Van. I have been away for a little bit. Thought I would read what you wrote before church. Praise be to God.

Since my post was post #10, I'm assuming that all of the quoted paragraph above is regarding what I wrote. To be clear, what I have done in my post #10 is basically agree with you about your point #2, I think I'm agreeing anyway, that your stated #2 is false (I agree, it is false). Since I was basically agreeing with you, I didn't feel the need to address all your references. Those being, 1Cor 3:1 and the verse in Matthew regarding the soils.

In 1Cor 3:1, it seems reasonable, and correct, to interpret it as saying that Paul had to use spiritual milk, the kind used when speaking to the carnal, when first speaking to the those from the Corinthian church. Therefore, it follows that spiritual milk, i.e., the workings of the Spirit (because man is only the vessel of the message), is given to the carnal (as Paul suggests).

This reasoning in turn makes your #2 false (meaning you suggest your #2 is false and I agree).

Regarding Matt 13:18-23. Cleary it cannot be denied that the parable suggests that the carnal, to use verbiage from 1Cor 3:1, receive some spiritual milk in the form of using the word "seed". All receive this seed within the parable. Thus, all, as in all that literally hear, receive some kind of spiritual milk (aka a seed of truth). So again, this makes the phrase "the lost cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God"...false. At least how the High Calvinist wants to used it. This is where my analysis in post #10 comes into play in using the word "appraise".

Matt 13:18-23 does suggest, however, that God is the initiating acting agent in this scenario. God first sends this seed of truth, through His vessels and word, so that then man can be responsible for his part (because he was/is blind).

I didn't address your #1 because I'm not really interested in debating whether it's particular or corporate election. It seems to me that Particular election along with Surpralapsarianism demands that your #2 is correct (where you and I say it is false). Since I deny Supralapsarianism and assert a Postlapsarianism, it doesn't seem to logically follow that Postlapsarianism demands your #2 to be true (but again, Supralapsarianism does demand it).

In summery, I agree with your analysis of #2. And therefore, I disagree with the Calvinist. Regarding your #1, I disagree with the Calvinist that are Supralapsarians. This Supralapsarianism ultimately leads to them claiming your #2 (which we agree that your #2 is false).

Thank you for the conversation.


Peace to you brother

 

[Van]

Greetings again Van. I have been away for a little bit. Thought I would read what you wrote before church. Praise be to God.

Since my post was post #10, I'm assuming that all of the quoted paragraph above is regarding what I wrote. To be clear, what I have done in my post #10 is basically agree with you about your point #2, I think I'm agreeing anyway, that your stated #2 is false (I agree, it is false). Since I was basically agreeing with you, I didn't feel the need to address all your references. Those being, 1Cor 3:1 and the verse in Matthew regarding the soils.

In 1Cor 3:1, it seems reasonable, and correct, to interpret it as saying that Paul had to use spiritual milk, the kind used when speaking to the carnal, when first speaking to the those from the Corinthian church. Therefore, it follows that spiritual milk, i.e., the workings of the Spirit (because man is only the vessel of the message), is given to the carnal (as Paul suggests).

This reasoning in turn makes your #2 false (meaning you suggest your #2 is false and I agree).

Regarding Matt 13:18-23. Cleary it cannot be denied that the parable suggests that the carnal, to use verbiage from 1Cor 3:1, receive some spiritual milk in the form of using the word "seed". All receive this seed within the parable. Thus, all, as in all that literally hear, receive some kind of spiritual milk (aka a seed of truth). So again, this makes the phrase "the lost cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God"...false. At least how the High Calvinist wants to used it. This is where my analysis in post #10 comes into play in using the word "appraise".

Matt 13:18-23 does suggest, however, that God is the initiating acting agent in this scenario. God first sends this seed of truth, through His vessels and word, so that then man can be responsible for his part (because he was/is blind).

I didn't address your #1 because I'm not really interested in debating whether it's particular or corporate election. It seems to me that Particular election along with Surpralapsarianism demands that your #2 is correct (where you and I say it is false). Since I deny Supralapsarianism and assert a Postlapsarianism, it doesn't seem to logically follow that Postlapsarianism demands your #2 to be true (but again, Supralapsarianism does demand it).

In summery, I agree with your analysis of #2. And therefore, I disagree with the Calvinist. Regarding your #1, I disagree with the Calvinist that are Supralapsarians. This Supralapsarianism ultimately leads to them claiming your #2 (which we agree that your #2 is false).

Thank you for the conversation.


Peace to you brother

1. If you agree than natural, non-indwelt, lost people can hear and understand spiritual milk, then we agree, the lost have limited spiritual ability.

2. We do not agree that all the lost are blind, only soil #1 of Matthew 13, but the rest of the lost receive the word of the kingdom.

3. We disagree as to the timing of election, as our corporate election occurred before creation, but our individual election occurred after we existed as "not a people" chosen for God's own possession, 1 Peter 2:9-10, thus during our physical lifetime. (After we came to faith and God credited our faith as righteousness.)