Mistaken views held by Mainstream Believers

[Van]

Sorry Van. I am having a hard time understanding you. I'm honestly trying to make a lot of effort here to try and understand what you are saying. My post was more of a question than trying to pin something on you.

I would be encouraged if you attributed to me what I said, rather than what I did not say.

There is nothing hard to understand about"Prevenient Grace is false doctrine." Why not say, Van I understand that you believe Prevenient Grace is false doctrine and that the lost do not need to be supernaturally enabled to come to faith.

That would be a start.

 

[Paleouss]

No, I have clearly said Prevenient Grace is false doctrine! Full Stop.

Ok, filed. . You don't believe in Prevenient Grace.

I proved to anyone who reads scripture, that not everyone has the ability to have faith

Ok. You proved "not everyone has the ability to have faith". So your view, which you say is the biblical view, is that not everyone has the "ability" to have faith.

They can loose that ability if their heart is hardened. Soil #1.

Ok. They had the ability at some point, but no longer have it (as shown in soil #1).

The lost, have limited spiritual ability, sufficient to understand spiritual milk, from the age of accountability, unless that ability is lost by the hardening of their heart.

Ok. The lost, which is all of us at one time, have limited spiritual ability. That is your understanding. Got it, I hope.

If you would be patient with me for a little while longer... when you say "ability" (used in your phrase "limited spiritual ability"). In what sense of ability do you mean? Since you use it along with he word "spiritual" do you mean the ability to discern from audible words or written words some spiritual truths properly? That these audible and written words are physical pieces of evidence that we then can draw spiritual truths from them? (just inquiring, not trying to pin it on you if it is not yours).

Peace to you brother.

 

[Van]

Ok, filed. . You don't believe in Prevenient Grace.

Ok. You proved "not everyone has the ability to have faith". So your view, which you say is the biblical view, is that not everyone has the "ability" to have faith.

Ok. They had the ability at some point, but no longer have it (as shown in soil #1).

Ok. The lost, which is all of us at one time, have limited spiritual ability. That is your understanding. Got it, I hope.

If you would be patient with me for a little while longer... when you say "ability" (used in your phrase "limited spiritual ability"). In what sense of ability do you mean? Since you use it along with he word "spiritual" do you mean the ability to discern from audible words or written words some spiritual truths properly? That these audible and written words are physical pieces of evidence that we then can draw spiritual truths from them? (just inquiring, not trying to pin it on you if it is not yours).

Peace to you brother.

Thanks. Now I know you understand my view, and I understand you do not accept it as the biblical view. Fine

Ability means ability, I do not use words to mean other than what is commonly understood from dictionary definitions. I assume you accept that the lost have the innate ability to discern spiritual things such as the invisible attributes of God from what He has made. Roman 1:20.

I say not everyone has the ability to have faith, but that was not all I said. I pointed to Soil #1 of Matthew 13. It says not everyone has the ability to have faith. So I do not know why you ascribe that view to me and not to scripture.

Yes I mean the lost can discern spiritual milk, from observation of what God has made, from His written word, and from hearing His word from others. No I did not say we always discern spiritual milk truths properly. Everyone sees through a glass darkly. Yes we can draw "spiritual truth" from His revelation in its various forms.

Last comment, I have supported this well attested view, all along the line with specific verses.

 

[Paleouss]

Thanks. Now I know you understand my view, and I understand you do not accept it as the biblical view. Fine

Well, I probably agree with you more than you think.

I assume you accept that the lost have the innate ability to discern spiritual things such as the invisible attributes of God from what He has made. Roman 1:20.

Yes, I do accept this. I think that we have some disagreement on the technicalities. But overacting... we would agree I think.

I say not everyone has the ability to have faith, but that was not all I said. I pointed to Soil #1 of Matthew 13.

Right. I see that.

Yes I mean the lost can discern spiritual milk, from observation of what God has made, from His written word, and from hearing His word from others.

This is a key piece for my understanding. Even though you might have said it a few times before (sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake). I'm taking your reference to Romans 1:20, the way even some Calvinist might say that the lost "discern" from Romans 1:20 (I'm not Calvinist btw). And then saying that the type of discerning that is going on in Rom 1:20 is also the same with the written word and from hearing.

You then are taking this same concept of discernment and applying it to Matt 13:19, with the seed (which is the word of the kingdom) being sown (which is hearing or reading).

If all this is correct, then I now understand that when I said I agree with you but then suggested that the Spirit is also needed to complete this discernment and witness with our spirit because what is learned is spiritual. You objected.

Peace to you brother.

 

[JesusFan]

No, I have clearly said Prevenient Grace is false doctrine! Full Stop. I proved to anyone who reads scripture, that not everyone has the ability to have faith. They can loose that ability if their heart is hardened. Soil #1.

The lost, have limited spiritual ability, sufficient to understand spiritual milk, from the age of accountability, unless that ability is lost by the hardening of their heart.

None can understand the spiritual meaning of the scriptures unless illuminated by the Holy Spirit and He only does that for those already saved, and also He uses the Gospel message to reach all those whom he has granted ears to hear and hearts to receive

 

[Van]

1) Ephesians 1:4 teaches God chose individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Actually God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before the foundation of the world, and therefore He chose us corporately when He chose our Redeemer individually. That is the meaning of "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

2) 1 Corinthians 2:14 teaches that the lost cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit of God.

Actually some of the lost, soils 2,3 and 4 from Mathew 13, can understand the spiritual milk of the gospel.

We have had discussion of the evidence that the lost, unless their heart has been hardened, have the innate limited ability to discern some of the things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk. There do not need to be enabled by supernatural means to come to faith, some of them can accept the gospel message, and fully embrace it, such that they are deeply committed to making Jesus Lord of their life, and making Jesus the overriding priority of their life.

We have not yet discussed why scripture required our individual election for salvation to occur, not before creation, but after we have lived as "not a people" chosen for God's own possession. Here are some of those scriptural requirements.;

1) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. We do not come to faith, before we have heard the learned from the Father, having been "drawn" (attracted) by the Father by His lovingkindness.

2) James 2:5 says God chose us who were poor to the world, which is to say we were poor based on the world's (humanity's) value system valuing the wealthy, powerful and well-born. To be considered as such and such by our neighbors, we must exist in a community, and not be a foreseen individual.

3) James 2:5 says when chosen we were "rich in faith." This mirrors the evidence from 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

4) James 2:5 says when chosen we were "heirs to the kingdom" promised to those that love God. This again required that we love God after being accepting God's revelation of His lovingkindness.

 

[Van]

None can understand the spiritual meaning of the scriptures unless illuminated by the Holy Spirit and He only does that for those already saved, and also He uses the Gospel message to reach all those whom he has granted ears to hear and hearts to receive

Yet another false claim, why ignoring as the evidence to the contrary, such as no one was chosen for salvation except through faith in the truth.

 

[JesusFan]

Yet another false claim, why ignoring as the evidence to the contrary, such as no one was chosen for salvation except through faith in the truth.

That saving faith came from the Holy Spirit, was in inherit within themselves

 

[Van]

That saving faith came from the Holy Spirit, was in inherit within themselves

Yet another false claim from a fount of false claims. Did anyone say our faith was inherit within us? Nope. This false claimer should be ignored by everyone who has heard the story of the boy who cried wolf.

 

[JesusFan]

Yet another false claim from a fount of false claims. Did anyone say our faith was inherit within us? Nope. This false claimer should be ignored by everyone who has heard the story of the boy who cried wolf.

So you had that saving faith in your spiritually dead state?

 

[Van]

We have had discussion of the evidence that the lost, unless their heart has been hardened, have the innate limited ability to discern some of the things of the Spirit of God, spiritual milk. There do not need to be enabled by supernatural means to come to faith, some of them can accept the gospel message, and fully embrace it, such that they are deeply committed to making Jesus Lord of their life, and making Jesus the overriding priority of their life.

We have not yet discussed why scripture required our individual election for salvation to occur, not before creation, but after we have lived as "not a people" chosen for God's own possession. Here are some of those scriptural requirements.;

1) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. We do not come to faith, before we have heard the learned from the Father, having been "drawn" (attracted) by the Father by His lovingkindness.

2) James 2:5 says God chose us who were poor to the world, which is to say we were poor based on the world's (humanity's) value system valuing the wealthy, powerful and well-born. To be considered as such and such by our neighbors, we must exist in a community, and not be a foreseen individual.

3) James 2:5 says when chosen we were "rich in faith." This mirrors the evidence from 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

4) James 2:5 says when chosen we were "heirs to the kingdom" promised to those that love God. This again required that we love God after being accepting God's revelation of His lovingkindness.

Returning to topic, the timing of our individual election for salvation.

It could not be before creation, because then we would never have been "not a people."
It could not be before creation, because then we would have always received mercy, and never have been without it.

It had to be after we had been considered by our neighbors as poor according to the world's value system.
Not many of those chosen were well born, thus physically born withing a community and its worldly value system.

 

[Van]

Saving faith, is not what we believe, but what God credits as righteousness.

 

[JesusFan]

Saving faith, is not what we believe, but what God credits as righteousness.

we have NOTHING that God can credit us for in order to get saved

 

[Ben1445]

No, your scenario compares apples to orange. The lost have the ability to understand spiritual milk, unless that ability has been lost through the hardening of their heart, such as Soil #1, or Romans 11. It has nothing to do this externals, whether a person had an opportunity to hear, or whether the person was led astray as in Matthew 23:13. Prevenient Grace does NOT enable all individuals to have faith, as those with hardened hearts do not have that ability.

I think you’re mixing metaphors and politely, I disagree.

 

[Ben1445]

we have NOTHING that God can credit us for in order to get saved

Only this,
Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

 

[Ben1445]

No, your scenario compares apples to orange. The lost have the ability to understand spiritual milk, unless that ability has been lost through the hardening of their heart, such as Soil #1, or Romans 11. It has nothing to do this externals, whether a person had an opportunity to hear, or whether the person was led astray as in Matthew 23:13. Prevenient Grace does NOT enable all individuals to have faith, as those with hardened hearts do not have that ability.

You are Cathy the devil taking it away has nothing to do with the situation. You should read the interpretation again. I would put the devil in the category of external. (I should hope)

 

[David Lamb]

You are Cathy the devil taking it away has nothing to do with the situation. You should read the interpretation again. I would put the devil in the category of external. (I should hope)

Sorry but who is "Cathy the devil?"

 

[Van]

I think you’re mixing metaphors and politely, I disagree.

Prevenient Grace does NOT enable all individuals to have faith, as those with hardened hearts do not have that ability. No mention of metaphors. Therefore Prevenient Grace is false doctrine.

 

[Ben1445]

Sorry but who is "Cathy the devil?"

Sorry, I replied to this one on my phone. The auto correct is extremely active and I have no idea how it got that. I usually read them again before posting because of this. I guess I didn’t for this one.
It should be


You are saying the devil taking it away has nothing to do with the situation. You should read the interpretation again. I would put the devil in the category of external. (I should hope)

 

[Ben1445]

Prevenient Grace does NOT enable all individuals to have faith, as those with hardened hearts do not have that ability. No mention of metaphors. Therefore Prevenient Grace is false doctrine.

I would agree that it is a false doctrine.
It is attempts to dissect the process of salvation and ultimately adds in things that are not Scriptural.
When God made man, everything that man needs to communicate with God and understand God was in Adam. When Adam sinned, he still communicated and understood what God told him.
Grace is not something that comes before man’s knowledge. (Sorry if we disagree, I know that this is a hot topic)

Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Grace is in Christ at salvation and not before. In that, prevenient grace is false.
But God is still not willing that any should perish.
But as far as who salvation may be applied to…

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.