Jesus told to us that we are either children of God, by the New Birth, or children of satan by sinful natures, so how would our friend handle Jesus?
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Misunderstanding Unlimited Atonement.
- Thread starter glad4mercy
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Hi Yeshua1, yes, unlike TC, you do declare and affirm Limited Atonement says Christ died only for the elect and this is a bogus and unbiblical doctrine.
Jesus came "to" His own (referring to Jews) and they did not receive Him, John 1:11. Will you provide the verse that says Jesus came "for" His own only? Nope
Does any verse say the fallen cannot hear His voice? Nope. Will you provide the verse that says those "of His Sheep" cannot respond to the gospel. OTOH, the fields are white for harvest, thus we should pray for more laborers.
What is clear is all they offer is misrepresentation of scripture, their own doctrine, and the views of others. They seek to shroud the bogus doctrine of Limited atonement, because Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.
Jesus came "to" His own (referring to Jews) and they did not receive Him, John 1:11. Will you provide the verse that says Jesus came "for" His own only? Nope
Does any verse say the fallen cannot hear His voice? Nope. Will you provide the verse that says those "of His Sheep" cannot respond to the gospel. OTOH, the fields are white for harvest, thus we should pray for more laborers.
What is clear is all they offer is misrepresentation of scripture, their own doctrine, and the views of others. They seek to shroud the bogus doctrine of Limited atonement, because Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.
jesus stated that ONLY those who are of his flock will hear His voice and heed Him, and that those who are children of the Devil will reuse Him...
Jesus stated that his parables were NOT understood by the lost, but only those to whom was granted wisdom from above...
Jesus said that He was the great shephard for JUST His own, those who would hear Him...
pretty clear that you are mistaken here!
the basis of your argument is Evil is incapable of giving good gifts. Jesus just stated evil is capable.
Jesus forgave Pharisees at the cross. "forgive them father they know not what they do" Stephen the martyr also called out : acts 7 60Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
The Pharisee position was of exclusivity was it self evil. All men are equal.
The Pharisee doctrine is always based on looking for excuses and accusations for everyone of differ opinion to go to hell.
Matthew 23
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
Jesus was inclusive, mercy even applies to those AS THEY ARE SINNING, Even Stephen sincerely not only forgiving calling on for charges to be dropped.
This is Christianity at its best. The focus is unsaved not the saved, the unrighteous not the righteous, the reprobate not the elect.
Someone who doesn't have proper understanding would find the forgiveness Jesus and Stephen call for forgiveness alien to their understanding.
Stephen doesn't own his life, it belongs to God, Jesus would say this body and blood is yours. Even today People ask God to forgive on behalf of the evil others do even out right excusing their wrongs by learning to LOVE YOUR ENEMY.
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The Pharisee position of exclusivity would have us shoot ourselves in our foot.
The very verse mentioned Romans 3: 9-20 is not the Christian position, Paul is speaking from the implications of the Pharisee standpoint.
The entire context whole chapter 3 Paul is pointing out the equality and the flaw of Pharisee position.
Romans 3
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
When Paul says are "WE" better than they. He's talking about WE JEWS.
All the following is JEWISH LAW these are not things introduced by Jesus:
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Paul is clear whatever the law says it applies to those under the law, that way God can hold Jews accountable and guilty before God rather then license to sin for Jews and only Gentile accountability.
The things above those things weren't written for the first time in the new testament, Those things were applied to a very misbehaving Israel.
We see Israel fail over and over and over from genesis all the way through.
The entire plot of the old testament is basically God was happy with those who do what he says, upset with those who did not.
God can annihilate absolutely every evil in the world in a blink of an eye. He can force every single creature to never sin right now snap of a finger.
Why doesn't God do this? Love, kindness, mercy, patience.
Luke 6
32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
God is not running the universe at egomaniacs pace of my way or the highway. We already would have been done.
God's priority is the sinner. Who ever you think is the worst, least deserving of mercy, the bull's eye of God's wrath, That's God's highest priority. That's his most treasured child.
If we can't forgive them we take their place being worst. You can only love God as much as you do them.
You might declare to love someone because Jesus loves them. But the example of Jesus, what he is teaching is why Jesus loves anybody.
Why does Jesus love that "useless" sinner? You can learn this. Hint its not because he flips a coin.
The very verse mentioned Romans 3: 9-20 is not the Christian position, Paul is speaking from the implications of the Pharisee standpoint.
The entire context whole chapter 3 Paul is pointing out the equality and the flaw of Pharisee position.
Romans 3
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
When Paul says are "WE" better than they. He's talking about WE JEWS.
All the following is JEWISH LAW these are not things introduced by Jesus:
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Paul is clear whatever the law says it applies to those under the law, that way God can hold Jews accountable and guilty before God rather then license to sin for Jews and only Gentile accountability.
The things above those things weren't written for the first time in the new testament, Those things were applied to a very misbehaving Israel.
We see Israel fail over and over and over from genesis all the way through.
The entire plot of the old testament is basically God was happy with those who do what he says, upset with those who did not.
God can annihilate absolutely every evil in the world in a blink of an eye. He can force every single creature to never sin right now snap of a finger.
Why doesn't God do this? Love, kindness, mercy, patience.
Luke 6
32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33“If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
God is not running the universe at egomaniacs pace of my way or the highway. We already would have been done.
God's priority is the sinner. Who ever you think is the worst, least deserving of mercy, the bull's eye of God's wrath, That's God's highest priority. That's his most treasured child.
If we can't forgive them we take their place being worst. You can only love God as much as you do them.
You might declare to love someone because Jesus loves them. But the example of Jesus, what he is teaching is why Jesus loves anybody.
Why does Jesus love that "useless" sinner? You can learn this. Hint its not because he flips a coin.
I didn't make any argument. I just quoted Scripture.
I certainly would not argue that 'evil' people are incapable of doing good (Matthew 5:46-47). Hitler was kind to animals.FYI, the Biblical doctrine of Total Depravity does not say that people are as evil as they can be; it teaches that fallen men and women are affected by sin in every aspect of their lives and behaviour (eg. Isaiah 1:4-6). 'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:7-8).
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glad4mercy
Active Member
Man was created upright, but due to the Fall must be born again
glad4mercy
Active Member
a. The syllogism is a non sequitur. God gave His Son to die for the WORLD so the sheep might be saved
b. God gave His Son to die for the WORLD so the whosoevers might be save
c. Are you saying the one's who looked at the serpent did so because they were irresistably drawn to look at the serpent. Where does it say that in either John or Numbers? Chapter and verse
glad4mercy
Active Member
You havent at all supported your charge of synergism. Go back and read the definition of syngergism, and tell me
a. what effect in regeneration is wrought by God and what effect is wrought by man,
b. how is the combination of these two effects is greater than the two effects seperately
If you can answer this satisfactorily, you will have presented an argument. But you have not done so yet.
But I have already said that I believe that regeneration is wholly wrought of God, so you cannot charge me of synergism either way.
Nobody I know of says anything contrary to the fact that regeneration is wholly an act of God just as justification is also. We are justified by faith, yet it is a monergistic act of God. Same with regeneration.
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You did not admit to misrepresenting John 1:11. Why should anyone believe your assertions actually reflect what is found in scripture?
Where did Jesus say only His flock will hear His voice?
Where did Jesus say only those "granted wisdom from above" could understand His parables?
Where does scripture say "the sheep" refers not to fallen mankind, but only to those God has transferred into Christ?
Pay no attention to those who consistently misrepresent scripture.
There is no actual support anywhere in scripture for Limited Atonement, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all of fallen mankind.
That's not what either John 3:16 or John 10:11 says. What other text are you thinking of?
1. That is not what John 3:16 says.
2. What is your definition of kosmos translated 'world' in John 3:16? Is it the 'world' of 1 John 2:15 which we are not to love? Or is it one of the other eight or nine ways the word is used in Scripture?
Yes, I certainly am saying that. If we believe in Monergism we can hardly say anything else. We assume that the Serpent was a Type of Christ.
John 6:44. 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.'
Romans 3:11. 'There is none who seeks after God.'
Romans 11:7. 'Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have received it, and the rest were blinded.'
We must be very clear that those who failed to look to the serpent back then, just like those who fail to look to Christ today are culpable. Their inability is not physical but spiritual (John 9:40-41). 'And this is the condemnation; that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19).
I think you'll find I have.
Under your system, man holds a veto over God. Unless he complies, nothing happens.
The combination of the two is obviously greater because without man's agreement, there is no salvation- utter failure. Therefore man and God have to work together to get a result.
I think you'll find I can. Under Arminianism, God proposes, but man disposes. God indeed regenerates, but only when man decides to cooperate. You can not be an Arminian and a monergist; it is a contradiction in terms.
It cannot be a monergistic act of God if it depends on man.
But of course in real life, regeneration is a wholly monergistic act of God and depends not at all on man:
Acts 16:14. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was seller of purple from the city of Thyatira who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'
Now you tell me; who opened Lydia's heart?
Was it Lydia herself deciding to listen to Paul?
Was it Paul's preaching that induced Lydia to listen?
Nope! It was Almighty God who opened her heart to listen to Paul and be saved. That is why Luke says earlier, 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed' (Acts 13:48). Not one more, nor one fewer.
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Who are the 'they' for whom Jesus prayed? For we can be quite certain that God the Father answered the prayer in full.
Well, you mention the Pharisees. Were they all saved? Read Matthew 23:29-32 and tell me what you think. Yet nonetheless we read that Saul of Tarsus was a Pharisee.
But they also includes the Roman soldiers who crucified Him. Were they all saved? No, but at least one was. 'So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, "Surely this Man was the Son of God"' (Mark 15:39).
And what about sinners? Did not your sins and mine drive the Lord Jesus to the cross? Not every sinner will be saved, but maybe you and I will certainly find ourselves in the list if we have trusted in Him (John 6:37).. Praise God for particular redemption!
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Stephen too. Acts 7
Forgives those as they kill him, Even a one up, asks that the sin not even be charged against them.
I don't think you understand the concept of love your enemies.
Acts 7
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I'm pretty sure it was directed at those killing him.
I didn't make any argument. I just quoted Scripture.
FYI, the Biblical doctrine of Total Depravity does not say that people are as evil as they can be; it teaches that fallen men and women are affected by sin in every aspect of their lives and behaviour (eg. Isaiah 1:4-6). 'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:7-8).
FYI, Its called TOTAL depravity not Partial depravity.
Meaning people are only evil, incapable of any good.
Wrong (again). Total Depravity does NOT mean every person is as evil as he could be.
It means that no part of man's makeup is free from the effects of the fall.
His body is affected by the fall.
His soul is affected by the all.
His spirit is affected by the fall.
The totality of man, body, soul, and spirit, has been affected by the fall and thus, no part of man has sufficient merit to deserve heaven. That is the very definition of "grace." "Unmerited favor."
Look it up. That's not what it means. It means that man, left to his own devices, cannot respond to God. This is Catholic dogma, under another rubric. I understand now why you describe yourself as Bad Catholic. Catholic dogma is that God must first provide the grace that can lead to salvation. What happens after that is a dispute between Catholics and Protestants (at least some of them). You're embarrassing yourself in your assertions.
The Google:
the Calvinist doctrine that human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall.
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The wiki
Total depravity (also called radical corruption, or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.
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The Got Questions:
every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.”
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Without God a person is as evil as they can be. God is love. We cut God from equation it is pure evil.
Please provide an example of PARTIAL depravity. Maybe that will help clear things up.
Here's another section of from Got questions that might agree with you:
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him
I don't agree with the use of 1st class evil with a 2nd class good name tag.
Good is Good, Evil is Evil. If its not to the glory of God it is EVIL, period.
Isaiah 5
20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Total depravity means we can't do anything good.
And then we got, well you could do "GOOD" but its GOOD that is not glory to God.
Good that is not to the glory of God, is EVIL.
Call it like it is.
the Calvinist doctrine that human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall.
===
The wiki
Total depravity (also called radical corruption, or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.
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The Got Questions:
every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.”
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Without God a person is as evil as they can be. God is love. We cut God from equation it is pure evil.
Please provide an example of PARTIAL depravity. Maybe that will help clear things up.
Here's another section of from Got questions that might agree with you:
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him
I don't agree with the use of 1st class evil with a 2nd class good name tag.
Good is Good, Evil is Evil. If its not to the glory of God it is EVIL, period.
Isaiah 5
20Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Total depravity means we can't do anything good.
And then we got, well you could do "GOOD" but its GOOD that is not glory to God.
Good that is not to the glory of God, is EVIL.
Call it like it is.
Where's the head-banging emoticon when you need it? You don't even read your own links. Either Wiki or 'Got Questions' points you in the right direction. We all know atheists who support charities, do favours for neighbours etc. As I said, even Hitler was said to be kind to animals.
Try Romans 7:14-8:4. Outside of Christ we are all lost sinners.
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