Misunderstanding Unlimited Atonement.

[TCassidy]

Not resisting is not the same thing as working together with God which is what synergism should mean. Otherwise it is very inaccurate and imprecise terminology. That's what happens sometimes when you make up words that are not in the Bible and then put imprecise meanings or definitions on them.

syn·er·gy
ˈsinərjē
noun
noun: synergism
the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

God's grace + your submission (not resisting) = "a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."

God's grace is insufficient to save you if you resist.

You refrain from resisting.

Synergism.

 

[Yeshua1]

Some people claim that unlimited atonement equals universalism. This is a false claim. In order to critique a doctrine you must examine it according to WHAT IT'S PROPONENTS MEAN BY IT. Limited atonement does not mean universalism.

That the doctrine is misunderstood by some Calvinists is evident from numerous quotes. I will give a few quotes one at a time that demonstrate this. First, one from Lorraine Boetner.

1. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge which goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge which goes only half-way across. (Loraine Boetner, Limited Atonement from "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination")

This is a false statement. Arminians do not believe that the bridge to God only goes halfway across, we believe that it goes all the way across.

Arminius- ",,,as the very first commencement of every good thing, so likewise the progress, continuance and confirmation, nay, even the perseverance in good, are not from ourselves, but from God through the Holy Spirit. For "he who hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Phil. i. 6 and "we are kept by the power of God through faith." (1 Pet. i. 5.) "The God of all grace makes us perfect, stablishes, strengthens and settles us." (i, 10.)..." Works of Arminius"

Besides, the bridge analogy is an incomplete analogy. For regardless if a bridge goes all the way across or only halfway across, it is only profitable to those WHO CROSS IT.

SO Arminians do not teach that the bridge only goes halfway across, they teach that it goes all the way across, but we need to BY THE GRACE OF GOD walk across it, as it is written "enter in at the straight gate, for straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to salvation..."

Unlimited Atonement teaches that God has made a bridge for all men, and that a man can only begin, continue, and complete the trek across it by the Grace of God alone, but the responsibilty to cross it (by receiving and continuing in GOD'S GRACE ) belongs to us. That is why Jesus said "STRIVE to enter"

(and continuing in God's Grace does not mean perservering by our own strength, it is the day by day walking in the grace of God that not only justifies us but also preserves us. For it is God who begins and God who finishes the work in us, the Author AND Finisher of our faith, the one who is able to keep us from falling, etc.)

...and we strive because it is GOD WHO WORKS IN US both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Yet we do not passively sit at the entrance of the bridge, nor in the midst of the bridge, we cross it by the grace of God leading to salvation.

You are still stuck with God desiring ALL sinners to repent to get saved by God, His will that none perish, Jesus died for all, so in the end, the will of man trumps will of God!

 

[Iconoclast]

Grace + The manmade soteriological position of Strict Determinism = A host of problems concerning a message (Gospel) of a "genuine offer" of salvation to all.

If they believe otherwise that the offer is not made to all Calvinists should be more honest and transparent about their true soteriological beliefs by adjusting their gospel message to be relaying an offer that is only "genuinely" given to the lucky pre-selected few...

At anytime every person you speak with could be an elect person.
All can be told that God saves sinners from their sins.
It is no problem to stick with the apostolic message.

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed, with a couple comments.

a. Fixed multitude...fixed multitude of sheep does not mean fixed number that Jesus died for. The scriptures say that He died for the sheep, but nowhere says He died ONLY for the sheep.

b. Yes, God enables man to believe, but are they His sheep BEFORE they believe?

If they are sheep before they believe, how can it be said that they hear His voice and follow Him?

Read ezk 34.....the sheep are His so He seeks and saves them.It is when the Spirit gives then a new heart that they can welcome the truth of the word.

 

[glad4mercy]

syn·er·gy
ˈsinərjē
noun
noun: synergism
the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

God's grace + your submission (not resisting) = "a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."

God's grace is insufficient to save you if you resist.

You refrain from resisting.

Synergism.

a, How can you improve on Omnipotence/Infinite power. You can't

b. God's grace is more than sufficient, whether I resist or not.

c. Refraining from resisting is not interacting or cooperating with the grace of God in order to create a combined effect greater than the sum of mine and God's seperate effects. (Balderdash) Salvation is all of God, so my accepting His salvation is not making the effect of Him saving me greater. I add NO WORK NOR DO I ADD ANY EFFICIENT POWER TO THE POWER OF GOD TO SAVE.

Not synergism, even by the definition you posted

 

[glad4mercy]

You are still stuck with God desiring ALL sinners to repent to get saved by God, His will that none perish, Jesus died for all, so in the end, the will of man trumps will of God!

Not if God ORDAINED it to be such. You seem to think that God is too impotent and weak to be Sovereign if anyone can resist His Will. Resisting a Soveriegn DOES NOT REMOVE HIS ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY. It just means the resister will fall under His absolute wrath/judgement.

So simple a child can understand.

 

[Revmitchell]

so in the end, the will of man trumps will of God!

I am actually quite surprised that reformed folks are still trotting out that sophomoric argument. I would suggest you think that through some more before using it again.

 

[glad4mercy]

Read ezk 34.....the sheep are His so He seeks and saves them.It is when the Spirit gives then a new heart that they can welcome the truth of the word.

That is speaking of the sheep of the house of Israel, to whom Christ came first. And God has given a remnant of Israel the New Birth, He is drawing them today, and He will also draw them with a far greater drawing. But sometimes God draws through means that you are not considering.

 

[glad4mercy]

I am actually quite surprised that reformed folks are still trotting out that sophomoric argument. I would suggest you think that through some more before using it again.

I would agree that is not a well thought through argument. That kind of argument limits the power of God in a sense, as if to say God is not powerful enough to be Sovereign unless His will is unresisted. Resistance of God's will does not remove God's power or Soveriegnty, it just results in a lot of pain for the fool who does it.

 

[TCassidy]

a, How can you improve on Omnipotence/Infinite power. You can't

b. God's grace is more than sufficient, whether I resist or not.

c. Refraining from resisting is not interacting or cooperating with the grace of God in order to create a combined effect greater than the sum of mine and God's seperate effects. (Balderdash) Salvation is all of God, so my accepting His salvation is not making the effect of Him saving me greater. I add NO WORK NOR DO I ADD ANY EFFICIENT POWER TO THE POWER OF GOD TO SAVE.

Not synergism, even by the definition you posted

It never ceases to amaze me how Arminians have to twist the meanings of words and come up with convoluted "explanations" in order to defend their error that God needs their help in saving them.

 

[Revmitchell]

It never ceases to amaze me how Arminians have to twist the meanings of words and come up with convoluted "explanations" in order to defend their error that God needs their help in saving them.

Excuse me but who has ever said "God needs my help to save me?"

 

[glad4mercy]

It never ceases to amaze me how Arminians have to twist the meanings of words and come up with convoluted "explanations" in order to defend their error that God needs their help in saving them.

Simple question...what Arminian has ever said that we co-operate with God in order to produce a greater effect than what God's working alone can produce? I know of none.

 

[glad4mercy]

Excuse me but who has ever said "God needs my help to save me?"

GOOD QUESTION!

I am no more synergist than I am semipelagianism. I reject both. I guess that makes me a Calvinist If all Arminians are synergist, as T Cassiday seems to think

These categories people make up (like synergists) are all messed up. Maybe we should stop putting categories on people when they dont fit.

 

[TCassidy]

Simple question...what Arminian has ever said that we co-operate with God in order to produce a greater effect than what God's working alone can produce? I know of none.

You, yourself, have said you must cooperate with God by not resisting. QED

 

[TCassidy]

Excuse me but who has ever said "God needs my help to save me?"

Those who say we must assist Him by not resisting.

 

[Revmitchell]

Those who say we must assist Him by not resisting.

No sir, there have been other posts where you insisted that specific words be used or have been used to mean very narrow things. Now stay consistent here and show me one single post where someone claimed that God needs their help. I want to see a specific post with that exact claim.

If you do not provide it you are being inconsistent in your constant insistence of the narrow use of words and you are bearing a false witness toward those with whom you disagree.

I am waiting.

 

[TCassidy]

I am waiting.

I have repeatedly stated my belief that regeneration is monergistic (albeit resistable).

 

[Revmitchell]

Still waiting

 

[TCassidy]

Still waiting

I have repeatedly stated my belief that regeneration is monergistic (albeit resistable).

 

[Revmitchell]

Just as I thought no one has said God needs my help. Your misrepresentative characterization is not what people have said or believe. It is called being a false witness.