Modern Baptist Heroes

Part of the scandal of the gospel is that intelligence is not required to either believe or be completely faithful to God in discipleship. Our living faith is not based upon reason or our wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:18-31
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written,
"I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of (40) this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29 so that no man may boast before God.
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

 

Sorry, missed your point.

I meant that a person who is skilled in the word and has thought through all the issues will not come out a charismatic.

 

I would think about that. I am certainly not a charismatic nor an arminian, but I'd never slight the intellectual prowess of Jack Hayford, for instance.

 

That's incredibly easy to do. Sometimes I'm probably the only one who knows what I'm trying to say.

I'd still disagree with that statement, although I have quite of bit of sympathy for it. If someone comes to the conclusion that some sign gifts may be active in this age (and many intelligent and studied Christians hold that view), then some of them are likely to practice those gifts and be "Charismatic".

But I do hold the opinion that those who watch Charismatic television programs on "Christian" television are probably not very well informed about theology or the realities of most television "ministries".

 

Are you kidding? Some of this stuff is the best clean humor on TV! When "Rev Bennie" has the "Ragin' Cajun" on his show and the Ragin' Cajun and Rev Bennie trade stories about their trips to Heaven (yeah, the real one) in the flesh, and eating dinner with Jesus and Lunch with Paul... rollin' on the floor humor.

 

Grudem is a Baptist. This might come as a shock to some, but many Baptists are not strict cessanists such as John Piper, Thomas Schreiner, Wayne Grudem, Scott Hafemann, etc. Just because you believe gifts could still be in use today (or at least that the Bible does not affirm they are gone) does not mean you are pentecostal and agree that what happens in those churches is Biblical or from God.

 

My use of charismatic was in reference to the pentecostals.

I am curious about the Open but cautious view of Piper and the rest. Presently, I am a cessationalist and see no reason to be otherwise.

I don't know that Piper and the rest agree with Grudem on the modern day prophet thing though.

 

Wayne Grudem, has done more to systematize the charismatic view on prophecy than any other writer. He is a member of the Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Evanston, Illinois. Go to the Vineyard USA website and it full of material from Grudem.

Perhaps in his background he could be considered a Baptist but make no doubt about it, he is a Chrarismatic.

I must admit, he holds a unique combination of theological perspectives. Most Charismatics are Arminians but he is an extreme Calvinist.

Jacob.

 

Jacob, Grudem teaches in Phoenix.

 

Many "missionaries" will keep their memberships at their home church while serving in other locations. However, the information I have on his home church is dated 1994.

Jacob.

 

Daniel David, my statement not was directed towards you but those who assumed Grudem was vinyard because of his beliefs on charasmatic gifts.

I think the open but cautious view is basically rooted in the belief that 1 Corinthians 13:8 does not teach cessanisim, and since it is nowhere else taught in the Bible, there is no reason to preach it as doctrine. I am sure all of these men would condemn what takes place in pentecostal churches and otherwise charasmatic services. Grudem is probably more charamatic then the rest, and to be honest the two chapters on the gifts of the spirt are 2 of about 4 that I HAVEN'T read out of his systematic theology.

I am not convined that 1 Corinthians 13:8 teaches cessanism (sp, I don't know how to spell that). It seems "The Perfect" is refering to Jesus returning and not the Bible, for Paul speaks of the partial, and in other places he speaks of seeing through a glass dimley which will be resolved in heaven, not when he finishes penning 2 Timothy! I am not sure what "Knowledge" refers to since it also would also have ceased when the Bible was completed.

As for the verb being in the middle voice, one only needs to peruse the NT for uses of the middle voice to see that it is never clear cut, and a strict definition seems more likely that tounges will cease FOR themselves, not BY themselves.

That said, in practical life I am much more a cessanist then most on this board. I am very guarded to use language such as "The Lord told me to," or even "God is teaching me . . .", for the only sure and solid way the Lord directs me or teaches me is through the pages of the Bible. I hear over and over with people telling me what the Lord has taught them recently, even within the Bible, and there are contradictory from what He is teaching someone else! Someone is wrong.

By the way, Daniel David is right, Grudem lives in Phoneix.

 

I am fairly new to this forum and appreciate what I have read in several topics so far.

There have been several good suggestions as to great Baptist men in this century.
I did notice, however, some mentioned who, I believe, were great men used of God, but are not/were not Baptist.
Billy Sunday - Presbyterian
D.L. Moody - Congregationalist.

There were some mentioned that are Baptist in name only but not in practice....

I would like to add some names, but first, let me add: there are and were many "unsung" hero's of the faith who have pastored what we might refer to as "small" churches. Men who have stood by the faith and not compromised one iota.

Men who have been used of God to win souls; have men in their churches called of God to preach & go to the mission field. Maybe they never pastored a large church, but were "Giants" of the faith.

My first selection is J.Frank Norris.
The 2nd post on this subject made reference to him because G.W.Truitt "stood up" to Norris. The history is past, but there are two - no three sides to the story. Norris; Truitts & what God knows to be true.

Norris was greatly used of God to preach the Gospel; advisor to president Truman on this issue of Israel becomming a nation.
I have 80 sermons now on tape, by Norris; some books; papers etc. he has been my hobby through the years. God used him to train men for the ministry. He has helped, personally, many young preachers and their families, when they were struggling financially. I could go on.

Jack Hyles - had him preach for us several years ago. God greatly used him over the years.
Charlie Dyer
David Cavin
Tom Malone
Dallas Billington
Noel Smith
Lee Robertson
J.R. Faulkner
Harold Sightler

Several other names suggested are also very good ones.

 

Now I'll add my 2 cents worth!
What about "Pat" Marion Robertson
Head of CBN??? I know some of you don't like him, but God uses him greatly! If it weren't for him, I may have never been saved! I received Jesus on Oct 30th 1989 because of Pat Robertson!
Theology or no theology, I don't care what some might say, Dr. Robertson has said he was Baptist.
I don't always agree with his theology, but he wins souls for the Lord Jesus Christ!
This is what counts, soul winning, #1 job, everything else is trivial compared to this one act.
GBYA Jim Ellis

 

Norris did a lot of good things, but he also did a lot of evil things.

It is very, very likely that he burned down the First Baptist Fort Worth church facilities and the parsonage of the church and tried to cover his tracks by blaming it on his enemies. (There was quite a bit of physical and eyewitness evidence against him.)

It was clearly demonstrated that he lied in his depositions to the court that was investigating his role in the arson, but prosecution for perjury ceased when Norris’ lawyer took the defense that Norris had not been sworn to tell the truth both the second and third time he appeared before court officials when the lies were told. (The court had been operating under the assumption that Norris knew he was still under oath from the first session where he was duly sworn.)

It is very, very likely that Norris murdered Dexter Chipps in his pastor’s study because Norris shot four times “in self-defense”, but managed only to hit Chipps twice in the back and once in the back of the neck (one bullet missed). Norris testified that Chipps had threatened him with a gun, but no gun was found in the office except for Norris’ pistol. Furthermore, one of his own church members was waited outside the office door to speak to Norris and witnessed Chipps trying to scramble out the door as he was shot.

Furthermore, Norris did not seem to concern himself with facts or truth when he was on some sort of crusade. He freely made damning accusations against public figures and then searched for evidence to support his claims.

I spent quite a bit of time researching Norris’ life for some magazine articles I wrote about him as well as for a book I’ve been thinking about writing on Norris. The people who knew him best knew that he was something of a charismatic scoundrel and often did not like many of the things he did in his personal and public life. Yet, he knew how to preach and motivate crowds with his antics, so they assumed that God was behind him.

 

Awww . . . mortenview, you stole my thunder!! No one had mentioned Dr. Sightler yet. He was my childhood pastor, a wonderful man. He's been called "The Prince of Preachers." I love to hear that gravelly voice now; I really miss him!

Other preachers whose preaching has been a blessing to me are Dr. Oliver Greene, Bro. Sammy Allen, and my favorite preacher, Dr. Ron Gearis.

My own pastor is a hero to me, Bro. Mickey Hollars of Ft. Worth, TX. He's a man with a heart for souls who takes the time to love folks and give them practical help to live for the Lord. I don't know many preachers who work as hard as he does.

My dad, missionary Jack Holden, in Mexico. He has been saved for 31 years and has never backed down or given up, even through some very hard times. He's faithful!

And last but not least, my husband. He truly loves as Christ loves, without reservation or condition. He is following the Lord faithfully and without compromise. I'm privileged to be his partner as we go to Canada as missionaries!

Susan

 

The true hero's are those who may not be famous among men but have refused to compromise, stood for the truth in God's Word, preached strong and hot. These are the men who have been hated by their preacher "brethren" for their stand. They are the ones being called "legalist". The ones who stand when no one else will stand. The ones who have been faithful in soul winning, discipleship; training men, sending men, starting churches, and never noticed by other men.

These men will receive greater honor than some of our "heros" as the "heros" have received their rewards in the plaudits they received from the world.

Problem with being famous, one has to compromise somewhere to continue to be popular.

 

I'm privileged to be his partner as we go to Canada as missionaries!

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I love to read these remarks! Come to Canada as missionaries. It would appear to me there are some 200 million prospective converts in the good ol' US of A. Why are we so blessed to have your benevolence?

Cheers,

Jim

 

I don't know that I agree with this statement. Billy Graham comes to mind....he has an amazing ability to present the gospel and for people to respond. No doubt God has worked through his popularity.

 

_________________________________________________

I love to read these remarks! Come to Canada as missionaries. It would appear to me there are some 200 million prospective converts in the good ol' US of A. Why are we so blessed to have your benevolence?

Cheers,

Jim </font>[/QUOTE]Proximity? Anglophonicity? Good fishing and a favorable exchange rate?

Actually, Jim, I think it's about time you Canadian Baptists put a little effort in to missions south of your border.

Not that there isn't some of that; at a Baptist Men's Retreat at Camp Burton a few years ago our featured speaker was the Minister of Missions from Vancouver First Baptist, and he had much of value to say both on Africa (he served on the Kenya/Somalia/Ethiopia front as well as in wartorn Liberia and Sierra Leone) and on urban ministry to African immigrants (he speaks both Swahili and Somali) in Vancouver and Toronto that would be useful for any Texas Baptists who might care to listen.

Haruo

 

Haruo,
I don't mind a litte exchange, but as missionaries? It sounds like we are some pagan "mission" field, a little condescending.

We speak English, French and a few other languages. We have modern shops in our towns and cities. Our people are generally fully clothed, drive motorcars and a lot of us go to church on Sunday. We even have ordained ministers, Bible Colleges, seminaries and theological schools in our universities, of which there are many.

Then, on second thought, it might be educational for the Texans to come here. They might learn that we don't legally kill people by the droves, which makes us slightly more civilized. Bring them on. We will teach them.

Cheers,

Jim