Monergism vs Synergism

[Reformed]

They get to that distinction mainly in a desire to keep real free will, as to them, God has honored that before all other things, and has agreed to limit Himself to saving us once we allow Him to do that by placing"our faith" unto Jesus!

The only self-limiting we see in the Godhead is the kenosis of Jesus that Paul writes about in Philippians 2. Actually, self-limiting is not the most accurate term. Jesus veiled some of His attributes much as the Father did in Exodus 33:17-23. Jesus could not be God and diminish any of His attributes. He veiled some of them while in His humanity. While that is specific to the Godhead relating to humanity, there is no evidence in scripture where God veiled His omniscience or His sovereign will of decree. Actually, the scripture testifies to quite the opposite.

 

[utilyan]

I used to know an "evangelist" who would close every sermon with the old "God casts a vote, Satan casts a vote, and you cast a vote. Which side are you going to vote for?"

When I was in Seminary I worked for Midwest Federal, downtown. A lot of the guys who worked in the parking garage were students at North Central Bible College (AOG/Pentecostal). We would get talking and I would say that salvation is not by works and they, inevitably would respond, "Well, you gotta do something!"

There are many things that differ between the various churches, baptism, polity, autonomy, ordinances verses sacraments, the pastoral office, and those are what so many arguments center around.

But the devil has gone after the most important doctrine of all: The Gospel. And he has so subtly twisted it that many (most) have failed to see his monstrous deception.

"But the devil has gone after the most important doctrine of all: The Gospel. And he has so subtly twisted it that many (most) have failed to see his monstrous deception. "


That's a funny statement being that if the devil made no act and neither does God, the total depravity would not allow for correct understanding of the gospel in the first place.

 

[thatbrian]

But the devil has gone after the most important doctrine of all: The Gospel. And he has so subtly twisted it that many (most) have failed to see his monstrous deception.

That is the heart of the matter.

The guys in the parking garage who said, "well, you gotta do something.", and the millions more like them, don't have a full view of the gospel. They imagine themselves as contributing to Christ's atoning work, and that causes them no shortage of trouble and unrest.

I fully agree. The gospel is what is under attack, and by all appearances, the battle has been lost as the vast majority in the church have no idea that they have believed the lie of Satan over the truth of God. The vast majority practice a gospel-less "Christianity" which is nothing more than moralism in the name of Jesus. They are so close, yet a million miles away.

 

[Revmitchell]

Of course I do. All of Him. None of me.

Am I wrong when I say you also believe God must regenerate man before saving him?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

God secured real salvation for a real group of sinners by the death of jesus on their behalf, and he calls them His elect!

Not Biblical!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The sinner is called upon many times in the Holy Bible, to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15), which is what they are required to DO, before they are saved. There is no Scripture that says that God does our "repenting and believing" for us, which is a non-starter. Nor does the Bible say that God first "regenerates" the sinners heart, and thus enabling them to repent and believe? Titus 3:5 very clearly says that "regeneration" is the SAME as being "born-again". In fact, the Greek word for "regeneration" here, "παλιγγενεσία", means literally, "rebirth" or "born-again". Therefore the "rebirth" of any sinner is the "calling" by God the Holy Spirit, and the "repentance" by the sinner. Both are required for salvation.

 

[thatbrian]

The sinner is called upon many times in the Holy Bible, to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15), which is what they are required to DO, before they are saved. There is no Scripture that says that God does our "repenting and believing" for us, which is a non-starter. Nor does the Bible say that God first "regenerates" the sinners heart, and thus enabling them to repent and believe? Titus 3:5 very clearly says that "regeneration" is the SAME as being "born-again". In fact, the Greek word for "regeneration" here, "παλιγγενεσία", means literally, "rebirth" or "born-again". Therefore the "rebirth" of any sinner is the "calling" by God the Holy Spirit, and the "repentance" by the sinner. Both are required for salvation.

Regeneration is the same thing as being born again. You've got that right. Jesus did explain to Nicodemus how that works. Just like in physical birth, the child has no say in the matter. The faith we do demonstrate is real, and it is a gift.

God's spoken word, His gospel, is the very power which creates a new man.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Regeneration is the same thing as being born again. You've got that right. Jesus did explain to Nicodemus how that works. Just like in physical birth, the child has no say in the matter. The faith we do demonstrate is real, and it is a gift.

God's spoken word, His gospel, is the very power which creates a new man.

You are not right in trying to apply human birth to that which is spiritual. While the child born does not have any say in their human birth, this is not the case for those who are "ἄνωθεν", "born from above" (literal Greek), as they have to "repent and believe". the Bible commands that all sinners repent of their sins, and believe in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, for their salvation. The whole notion of the "reformed" teaching of "election to salvation" is foreign to the actual teachings of the Bible, as the salvation of the sinner is NOT a "one-sided" matter, where God simply elects some to eternal life, and the sinner does not DO anything. The sinner must first "repent", that is to turn from their sins to the Living God, in order to be saved. Neither is "faith" the "gift of God" as Ephesians 2:8-9 is appealed to by some, but it is "salvation". Faith indeed comes from hearing the Gospel of salvation as found in Jesus Christ, which is the work of God the Holy Spirit. "God commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), which very much places the onus on the sinner, as it is not mechanical as some are led to believe!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Am I wrong when I say you also believe God must regenerate man before saving him?

Can you please share where the Bible teaches that God first regenerates a sinner, in order they can repent and believe? Titus 3:5 equates "regeneration" with "born-again", which is the same thing at the same time. A sinner cannot be "born-again" twice, once, where God "regenerates" their hearts before they are "saved (born-again)". There is no Scripture that teaches this.

 

[Reformed]

Nor does the Bible say that God first "regenerates" the sinners heart, and thus enabling them to repent and believe

If you are setting up a condition whereby you are looking for a passage that says, "God first regenerates the sinner's heart" then that condition cannot be met. Can you find that same type of condition to defend the Trinity? You can't because those exact words cannot be found in scripture. However, we can deduce biblical truth by understanding what scripture means, i.e. what it infers.

For instance, look at Ephesians 2. In verse 1 Paul writes that the sinner is spiritually dead which results in the inability of the sinner to repent and believe (c.f. Romans 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Can someone who is spiritually dead make themselves alive? No. A corpse in a coffin is incapable of doing anything, likewise, a spiritually dead individual can do nothing to breathe life into their spiritual condition. According to the Romans passage I quoted "it is not even able to do so". Well then, if the sinner is unable, how can he be born again? The answer is also found in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:4-9 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The great hope that the sinner has is "But God". God takes unilateral action in order to make the sinner able to believe. God makes the sinner alive (v. 5). That is regeneration and it is regeneration before repentance and belief. It is all part of the gift of God (v. 8). Left to his own devices no man will believe in God because his sinful condition precludes it.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

If you are setting up a condition whereby you are looking for a passage that says, "God first regenerates the sinner's heart" then that condition cannot be met. Can you find that same type of condition to defend the Trinity? You can't because those exact words cannot be found in scripture. However, we can deduce biblical truth by understanding what scripture means, i.e. what it infers.

For instance, look at Ephesians 2. In verse 1 Paul writes that the sinner is spiritually dead which results in the inability of the sinner to repent and believe (c.f. Romans 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Can someone who is spiritually dead make themselves alive? No. A corpse in a coffin is incapable of doing anything, likewise, a spiritually dead individual can do nothing to breathe life into their spiritual condition. According to the Romans passage I quoted "it is not even able to do so". Well then, if the sinner is unable, how can he be born again? The answer is also found in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:4-9 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The great hope that the sinner has is "But God". God takes unilateral action in order to make the sinner able to believe. God makes the sinner alive (v. 5). That is regeneration and it is regeneration before repentance and belief. It is all part of the gift of God (v. 8). Left to his own devices no man will believe in God because his sinful condition precludes it.

John chapter 16 teaches about the Holy Spirit "convicting the world of sin". This work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the sinner of their lost state, and their need for salvation in Jesus Christ. The Bible also teaches that the Gospel is the power of God to salvation, and that faith comes from the hearing of this Gospel Message. The teaching that man at the fall lost all spiritual capability is nothing more than "theology" pushed by some. Jesus Himself shows this to be not true, as we read His words in John chapter 5, "Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live." (verse 25), where the context is of the "spiritual dead". It is absurd to suppose that these refer only to the "elect", as Jesus says, "those who hear will life", indicating that there are those who will not "hear", and therefore will spiritually die. Call it what you like, but the Bible is very clear to those who will listen, that "regeneration" is the SAME as "rebirth" (Titus 3:5), and not separated as some suppose. I do wish that people will allow the Bible to speak as it does, without imposing humanistic jargon with not actual Biblical foundation!

 

[Revmitchell]

Can you please share where the Bible teaches that God first regenerates a sinner, in order they can repent and believe? Titus 3:5 equates "regeneration" with "born-again", which is the same thing at the same time. A sinner cannot be "born-again" twice, once, where God "regenerates" their hearts before they are "saved (born-again)". There is no Scripture that teaches this.

I've never made that claim you will have to ask those who hold yo that position

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I've never made that claim you will have to ask those who hold yo that position

apologies, I have misread your post!

 

[Yeshua1]

The only self-limiting we see in the Godhead is the kenosis of Jesus that Paul writes about in Philippians 2. Actually, self-limiting is not the most accurate term. Jesus veiled some of His attributes much as the Father did in Exodus 33:17-23. Jesus could not be God and diminish any of His attributes. He veiled some of them while in His humanity. While that is specific to the Godhead relating to humanity, there is no evidence in scripture where God veiled His omniscience or His sovereign will of decree. Actually, the scripture testifies to quite the opposite.

I agree with you on this issue, as think that the logical end point of full free will salvation would be Open theism, that dies pout hard limitations upon God.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you are setting up a condition whereby you are looking for a passage that says, "God first regenerates the sinner's heart" then that condition cannot be met. Can you find that same type of condition to defend the Trinity? You can't because those exact words cannot be found in scripture. However, we can deduce biblical truth by understanding what scripture means, i.e. what it infers.

For instance, look at Ephesians 2. In verse 1 Paul writes that the sinner is spiritually dead which results in the inability of the sinner to repent and believe (c.f. Romans 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Can someone who is spiritually dead make themselves alive? No. A corpse in a coffin is incapable of doing anything, likewise, a spiritually dead individual can do nothing to breathe life into their spiritual condition. According to the Romans passage I quoted "it is not even able to do so". Well then, if the sinner is unable, how can he be born again? The answer is also found in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:4-9 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The great hope that the sinner has is "But God". God takes unilateral action in order to make the sinner able to believe. God makes the sinner alive (v. 5). That is regeneration and it is regeneration before repentance and belief. It is all part of the gift of God (v. 8). Left to his own devices no man will believe in God because his sinful condition precludes it.

How about when it stated that the Lord opened their mind/hearts when paul spoke in Acts?

 

[TCassidy]

Am I wrong when I say you also believe God must regenerate man before saving him?

And what do I have to do with that? I did nothing to earn my regeneration. It was all of God none of me.

 

[Reformed]

The teaching that man at the fall lost all spiritual capability is nothing more than "theology" pushed by some.

I challenge you to look at the passages I cited and drill down on them. What does Paul mean in 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:5-8; and Ephesians 2:1? All you did was ignore what I wrote as though it didn't exist and go on postulating your point of view. I have many more passages I can share, but if you can't deal with these I would just be wasting my time.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I challenge you to look at the passages I cited and drill down on them. What does Paul mean in 1 Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:5-8; and Ephesians 2:1? All you did was ignore what I wrote as though it didn't exist and go on postulating your point of view. I have many more passages I can share, but if you can't deal with these I would just be wasting my time.

How can you say I ignored what you wrote, when my quote from Jesus in John chapter 5 is in response to what you have written, which you have not dealt with! None of the passages you quote show that any sinner is so dead in their sins, that they cannot respond to the call of salvation by the Holy Spirit. How indeed can God command that the whole human race repent (Acts 17:30), when according to your understanding, they are spiritually dead, and cannot respond? Surely God would be asking the impossible!

 

[TCassidy]

Wow! You have been here a whole month, posted 14 posts. and already you are correcting those of us who have been here for almost 2 decades, and spent the better part of 50 years in ministry of the word! [sarcasm] I'm impressed! [/sarcasm]

The sinner is called upon many times in the Holy Bible, to "repent and believe" (Mark 1:15), which is what they are required to DO, before they are saved.

So you believe salvation is based, at least in part, on something you DO? Some good work you DO?

There is no Scripture that says that God does our "repenting and believing" for us, which is a non-starter.

Of course it is a non-starter. Nobody has said "God does our repenting and believing for us." You can't just make this stuff up. You will be caught and publicly embarrassed every time. (There are lot of very knowledgeable posters here, not all of which I agree with, but they can offer cogent and convincing arguments in favor of their positions. It might behoove you to listen and learn about those you have decided to teach bible doctrine to.)

Nor does the Bible say that God first "regenerates" the sinners heart, and thus enabling them to repent and believe?

Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;

36:26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

Therefore the "rebirth" of any sinner is the "calling" by God the Holy Spirit, and the "repentance" by the sinner.

Yes, the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner, who is an enemy of God, and who does not accept spiritual things, considers them foolish, he can't understand them, and thus allows him to believe, repent, and obey.

Both are required for salvation.

Yes. And Praise God He gives us that which we don't have! Isn't God good?

"ἄνωθεν", "born from above" (literal Greek),

When you say "those who are "ἄνωθεν", "born from above" (literal Greek)," may I assume you are referring to John 3: 3, "unless one is born anew?" If so, might I point out the Greek word in question is γεννηθη, not what you say above. And it means "born." If you are referring to "again" or "anew" that word is ανωθεν and is an adverb describing the birth as "new" or "a second time" or "a time above the first time."

they have to "repent and believe".

And both are gifts given by God to us in His miracle of regeneration.

The whole notion of the "reformed" teaching of "election to salvation" is foreign to the actual teachings of the Bible, as the salvation of the sinner is NOT a "one-sided" matter, where God simply elects some to eternal life, and the sinner does not DO anything.

The bible says differently.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were chosen to eternal life believed.

Romans 11:7, "What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks for, but the election has obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Neither is "faith" the "gift of God" as Ephesians 2:8-9 is appealed to by some, but it is "salvation".

I am certainly no expert in Koine Greek (I only taught it at the graduate level for 25 years) but I know that "Gift" (δωρον) is a singular neuter noun. Grace (χαριτι) is a dative (case of the indirect object) singular feminine noun. Faith (πιστεως) is a genitive (the case of "belonging to" - a possessive) singular feminine noun. Saved, on the other hand, is σεσωσμενοι, a verb in the perfect tense, passive voice, a participle, in the nominative, plural, masculine.

So, explain to me how "saved" is the only antecedent of "faith."

it is not mechanical as some are led to believe!

Who says it is mechanical? How can you even call the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit "mechanical?"

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Wow! You have been here a whole month, posted 14 posts. and already you are correcting those of us who have been here for almost 2 decades, and spent the better part of 50 years in ministry of the word! [sarcasm] I'm impressed! [/sarcasm]

So you believe salvation is based, at least in part, on something you DO? Some good work you DO?

Of course it is a non-starter. Nobody has said "God does our repenting and believing for us." You can't just make this stuff up. You will be caught and publicly embarrassed every time. (There are lot of very knowledgeable posters here, not all of which I agree with, but they can offer cogent and convincing arguments in favor of their positions. It might behoove you to listen and learn about those you have decided to teach bible doctrine to.)


Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;

36:26 I will also give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

Yes, the Holy Spirit regenerates the sinner, who is an enemy of God, and who does not accept spiritual things, considers them foolish, he can't understand them, and thus allows him to believe, repent, and obey.

Yes. And Praise God He gives us that which we don't have! Isn't God good?

When you say "those who are "ἄνωθεν", "born from above" (literal Greek)," may I assume you are referring to John 3: 3, "unless one is born anew?" If so, might I point out the Greek word in question is γεννηθη, not what you say above. And it means "born." If you are referring to "again" or "anew" that word is ανωθεν and is an adverb describing the birth as "new" or "a second time" or "a time above the first time."

And both are gifts given by God to us in His miracle of regeneration.

The bible says differently.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were chosen to eternal life believed.

Romans 11:7, "What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks for, but the election has obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

I am certainly no expert in Koine Greek (I only taught it at the graduate level for 25 years) but I know that "Gift" (δωρον) is a singular neuter noun. Grace (χαριτι) is a dative (case of the indirect object) singular feminine noun. Faith (πιστεως) is a genitive (the case of "belonging to" - a possessive) singular feminine noun. Saved, on the other hand, is σεσωσμενοι, a verb in the perfect tense, passive voice, a participle, in the nominative, plural, masculine.

So, explain to me how "saved" is the only antecedent of "faith."
Who says it is mechanical? How can you even call the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit "mechanical?"

Let me deal with your first point. The Bible itself teaches that we WORK when we are saved, but not in the sense that we "earn" anything from God, but that we have to DO something. Look closely at Jonah 3:10;

" Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it."

Notice how God saw their WORKS? But, as the following words show, it is when "they turned from their evil ways", when they repented at the preaching of Jonah. This, my friend, is Scripture!