Monergistic ETERNAL Salvation

[Dr. Bob]

"Election" is not the issue at this point for the person sharing the gospel or for the person hearing the message. The offer of the gospel is a real offer and I can tell someone absolutely that they can come to Christ and believe and not worry that they may not be of the elect.

Can't think of any time I even mentioned "election" when sharing the salvation plan of repentance and faith. The ONLY part of calvinistic theology I mentioned was the wickedness/sinfulness and "depravity" of man. Man contributes just the NEED of salvation. God does the actual saving.

And like you, Dave, I assure them that if they genuinely repent and believe, they will be saved. I let God work in their heart, but I sincerely and earnestly press them to turn from sin to the only Savior. My preaching may be foolishness to those who will not repent and believe, but it is the power of God to those of us who have.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Looks like you do not understand them once again.Watch;

your rseponse is your THEOLOGY, and not what the Bible says!

 

[Iconoclast]

your rseponse is your THEOLOGY, and not what the Bible says!

I am reading the verses you gave.You are reading them backwards.They tell you the fact that men will not come.
I quoted the verses, that is exactly what they said.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm glad to hear that. But what makes non Calvinists upset is that is isn't enough for us to do this out of a sense of duty. What I am trying to tell @SavedByGrace is that the promise in scripture is actually and truly to every single person that hears the gospel - that if they come to Christ in faith they will be saved. "Election" is not the issue at this point for the person sharing the gospel or for the person hearing the message. The offer of the gospel is a real offer and I can tell someone absolutely that they can come to Christ and believe and not worry that they may not be of the elect. There are plenty of Calvinists who won't say that.

it is clear that those on BB that I have read, do NOT even understand your own "reformed" theology!

See what you have written, "that the promise in scripture is actually and truly to every single person that hears the gospel - that if they come to Christ in faith they will be saved"

Reformed theology says, that God gives as a Gift, ONLY to the elect, Repentance and saving faith, so that they can be saved. God thus ENABLES the hearts and minds of ONLY the elect. Then HOW can you tell everyone that they can come to Jesus, for salvation, when in fact they CANNOT? This is a LIE!

"not worry that they may not be of the elect.". More RUBBISH, the non elect are HELL-BOUND, as they can NEVER be saved! HOW can you tell these not to worry!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am reading the verses you gave.You are reading them backwards.They tell you the fact that men will not come.
I quoted the verses, that is exactly what they said.

Jesus says to these Jews how wanted to murder Him, that He was speaking to them, so that they could be saved (verse 34). They REFUSED of their own FREE WILL, to go to Jesus for this eternal life, as verse 40 says. So where I am wrong? Jesus also tells these same Jews, that they CAN believe and hear the Gospel, shows that NO sinnner is "totally dead"!

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is the DUTY of man to repent and believe the Gospel. If man does not, it is God's responsibility to punish.

The crux of the issue is HOW does man repent? How CAN a dead person, alienated from God, hating God and (as Paul aptly summarized the OT teaching in Romans 3), "TOTALLY INCAPABLE seeking God, wanting God, surrendering to God, calling on God". He cannot do one thing right and yet is supposed to go contrary to his nature and somehow repent and believe the Gospel on his own?

It takes the holy Spirit of God drawing, bringing a person to repentance and faith, changing his very core nature and giving him those gifts. Only then can a man in Nineveh (from illustration earlier in this thread) or from the inner city of Minneapolis (drawing from how He worked in MY own life 65 years ago this week). Why did I "hear" the message of hell and salvation and need to turn from sin in repentance and faith over and over and over again, never responding? Then one day >BANG< I did! Because I'm so good? Because my evil, fallen, god-hating will kicked in that I wasn't so bad after all?

I had a new nature, a gift work invisibly by God, and I was born again. I WAS born again. I didn't "born" myself. 100% of God. 0% of Bob. And 65 years later I am more sure of this miracle and more grateful to God for making me His child.

Have you never read what Jesus says in John 16?

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I don’t go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he has come, he will CONVICT the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment; 9 about sin, because they don’t believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to my Father, and you won’t see me any more; 11 about judgment, because the prince of this world has been judged.

The Bible also says, "For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek" (Romans 1:16)

Jesus again Commanded that we must preach in the Gospel:

"and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be preached in His Name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47)

The first sermon ever preached in the Church, was by Peter on the Day of Pentecost

After which we have the reaction by some who heard this message:

"Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart (CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit), and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we DO? 38 And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him" (Acts 2)

ALL sinners MUST "repent ye, and believe in the gospel", Jesus' first words in Mark's Gospel, BEFORE they can get saved.

The older Reformed theologians belived this, as did their "Confessions". It is only recently that this has changed

 

[agedman]

Jesus says to these Jews how wanted to murder Him, that He was speaking to them, so that they could be saved (verse 34). They REFUSED of their own FREE WILL, to go to Jesus for this eternal life, as verse 40 says. So where I am wrong? Jesus also tells these same Jews, that they CAN believe and hear the Gospel, shows that NO sinnner is "totally dead"!

Did you forget that the life was talking to them and they still refused life?

More then once the Lord mentions folks to respond while the light is with them. Many do not.

They could have believed because the redeemer was calling them to himself.

That is not as it is after the cross.

 

[agedman]

Have you never read what Jesus says in John 16?

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I don’t go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he has come, he will CONVICT the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment; 9 about sin, because they don’t believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to my Father, and you won’t see me any more; 11 about judgment, because the prince of this world has been judged.

The Bible also says, "For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek" (Romans 1:16)

Jesus again Commanded that we must preach in the Gospel:

"and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be preached in His Name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47)

The first sermon ever preached in the Church, was by Peter on the Day of Pentecost

After which we have the reaction by some who heard this message:

"Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart (CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit), and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we DO? 38 And Peter [said] unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him" (Acts 2)

ALL sinners MUST "repent ye, and believe in the gospel", Jesus' first words in Mark's Gospel, BEFORE they can get saved.

The older Reformed theologians belived this, as did their "Confessions". It is only recently that this has changed

Prior to repent and believe is the use of Scriptures and work of the Holy Spirit. (Romans)

 

[SavedByGrace]

Prior to repent and believe is the use of Scriptures and work of the Holy Spirit. (Romans)

show from Romans?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Did you forget that the life was talking to them and they still refused life?

More then once the Lord mentions folks to respond while the light is with them. Many do not.

They could have believed because the redeemer was calling them to himself.

That is not as it is after the cross.

You are still avoiding the fact, that Jesus tells these Jews, who actually refused to go to Him for eternal life, that they were ABLE to hear and believe (verses 24-25) in Him, and in verse 34, knowing that they would reject Him, Jesus tells them that He wanted to save them! Only if Jesus Christ Died for these, could He have told them what He does.

Can you not see this?

 

[agedman]

show from Romans?

5For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.c 6But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth). 7And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).” 8In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;
it is on your lips and in your heart.”​

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved. 11As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”e 12Jew and Gentilef are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.”


14But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them? 15And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”

16But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “LORD, who has believed our message?”i 17So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

​

You are still avoiding the fact, that Jesus tells these Jews, who actually refused to go to Him for eternal life, that they were ABLE to hear and believe (verses 24-25) in Him, and in verse 34, knowing that they would reject Him, Jesus tells them that He wanted to save them! Only if Jesus Christ Died for these, could He have told them what He does.

Can you not see this?

Certainly they were physically able to hear and believe, but does not the Scriptures indicate that not all had ears to hear, and that God had purposefully caused those to be in a state of blindness?

God did not make them that way, but their own agenda obliged the condition, and God confirmed it by statement of their lack of hearing ears and blinded eyes seeing that see not.

One that turns from the light stumbles in the dark.

The most important light in a grand house is not the great chandelier that hangs prominently.

Rather, it is that tiny insignificant night light that keeps one from stumbling in the dark. (Rephrasing of Dr. Bob Jones Sr.)

 

[DaveXR650]

it is clear that those on BB that I have read, do NOT even understand your own "reformed" theology!

See what you have written, "that the promise in scripture is actually and truly to every single person that hears the gospel - that if they come to Christ in faith they will be saved"

Reformed theology says, that God gives as a Gift, ONLY to the elect, Repentance and saving faith, so that they can be saved. God thus ENABLES the hearts and minds of ONLY the elect. Then HOW can you tell everyone that they can come to Jesus, for salvation, when in fact they CANNOT? This is a LIE!

I can't help it that there are things of God like election vs our responsibility that we can't really grasp. Most Calvinists do like Dr. Bob says in trying to be a part of spreading the gospel. I've told you in the past about all the Puritan soul winning sermons by high Calvinists you can refer to. The same Puritans had a part in the WCF. If you are concerned about damage to witnessing I've tried to be nice and put your mind at ease. But you claiming that you can't like Calvinist theology and witness is like me claiming you can't pray for a friend to get saved if you're a free willer. What would you be praying for. Don't they already have sufficient free will or at least an equal share of prevenient grace?

 

[atpollard]

it is clear that those on BB that I have read, do NOT even understand your own "reformed" theology!

Y A W N ... (yet another 'mansplainin' of what we "really" believe.)
That is an intellectually bankrupt approach to any discussion.
"You don't really know what you believe, so I will tell you" is nonsensical twaddle.

Try starting with - they believe what they claim they believe - and "engage in conversation" from there.

 

[kyredneck]

twaddle

Egad, that's a Vanology term, often hurled at Calvinists.

 

[Iconoclast]

it is clear that those on BB that I have read, do NOT even understand your own "reformed" theology!

See what you have written, "that the promise in scripture is actually and truly to every single person that hears the gospel - that if they come to Christ in faith they will be saved"

Reformed theology says, that God gives as a Gift, ONLY to the elect, Repentance and saving faith, so that they can be saved. God thus ENABLES the hearts and minds of ONLY the elect. Then HOW can you tell everyone that they can come to Jesus, for salvation, when in fact they CANNOT? This is a LIE!

"not worry that they may not be of the elect.". More RUBBISH, the non elect are HELL-BOUND, as they can NEVER be saved! HOW can you tell these not to worry!

We do know who they are, neither do you.
How can you tell the non elect?

 

[SavedByGrace]

We do know who they are, neither do you.
How can you tell the non elect?

God will not have the Gospel of salvation preached to the whole human race, if it is not for each and every. God does NOT play games, even though reformed theology might

 

[Iconoclast]

God will not have the Gospel of salvation preached to the whole human race, if it is not for each and every. God does NOT play games, even though reformed theology might

You are not reading but rather gibing your emotional ideas and drifting into make believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

God will not have the Gospel of salvation preached to the whole human race, if it is not for each and every. God does NOT play games, even though reformed theology might

One thing you don't find in older writings, from ancient up through the Puritan era is this idea that God has to meet some standard that we feel is fair. Even when you read Augustine in the journals of his younger days everything good that came his way was considered by God's grace. It seems to be the case up until the modern era. I think it is obvious that our lives don't work that way and there is no way you can come up with a "fair" playing field with the gospel even if you go complete Pelagian. A lot of folks never hear the gospel, others hear it weekly from their youth. If you camp for long on the idea that God had better meet some standard of fairness that satisfies you then you will soon be an atheist. That is one of their best arguments.

Calvinism and the WCF has a certain systematic theology. If you can't stand it you do not have to use it. I can't reconcile some parts of it in my mind either but I don't reject it because it has a lot of scripture to back it up and I like the teaching of the people who developed it. I don't see a better alternative although in my mind (and I speak only for myself) I think everyone from semi-Pelagian through classic Arminianism and on to high Calvinism can be true Christians. I don't think Calvinism will ever be popular once the YRR falls apart and it will (is). I am also beginning to understand that mug R.C. Sproul sells.

 

[atpollard]

Egad, that's a Vanology term, often hurled at Calvinists.

twaddle: speech or writing that is silly or not true (Cambridge Dictionary)
twaddle: silly idle talk; something insignificant or worthless (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
twaddle: trivial or foolish speech or writing (Oxford Dictionary)

The word seemed apropos.

 

[percho]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

the power of God unto salvation How? --------The Gospel-

Because it tells you this; Beginning with Jesus; the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth John 5:21 Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- Gal 1:1 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11

even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, enlightening yet life and incorruption through the gospel, 2 Tim 1:10

Thoughts on; through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ,

Keeping in mind relative to, the Gospel, manner of first preached unto verses 1 Cor 15:1-4; For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:16,17 There would be no salvation, no cause of salvation, you would still be in your sins, dead. ------ Now consider manifestation of our Savior;
Heb 5:9 YLT and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him cause of salvation age-during,