Dave G
Well-Known Member
Those were sign gifts.
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Monergistic Theology
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Gup20
Active Member
Deu 30:19
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Rom 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Rom 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Clearly, faith is a human choice that God has placed before man. Deuteronomy 30 explicitly excludes all forms of Calvinism from being true. Clearly, we see in Deuteronomy 30:19 that "heaven & earth" are co-witnesses, which is echoed by Paul in Romans 8. Therefore, we must conclude that salvation is synergistic.
In fact, if you really look closely at Deutermonomy 30, God specifically says 3 times in this chapter that salvation is a choice God sets before man, and not a choice made by God in heaven.
Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
The only argument Calvinists have against this is that this isn't talking about Salvation, but was only for ancient Israel... The Apostle Paul disagrees with this:So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
The Bible gives the SEQUENCE of events...which comes first and which comes after in several passage:
Ephesians 1:1
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Acts 11:17
“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?”
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Acts 11:17
“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?”
So we know regeneration comes AFTER faith, not before faith.
God regenerates his elect and grants to them saving faith and enables them to now be able to freely respond to the Gospel message. All part of the salvation package, and happens from our viewpoint pretty much all at the same time!
37818
Well-Known Member
Utter nonsense. The scripture is explicit, it is "through faith." (Ephesians 2:8) That God is the ultimate souce of our faith is not at issue. Saving faith precedes regeneration, without any kind of merit on the part of the believer.
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One must have God change their hearts/minds in order to even be able to receive Jesus thru faith!
37818
Well-Known Member
Of course. This is not at issue. (John 17:17, Mark 1:15)
That has to happen before one receives Jesus thru faith...
37818
Well-Known Member
One has to change one's mind in order to believe the truth.
Yall are talking past each other. The issue that needs to be addressed is depravity. He is a calvie so he holds to total depravity which is not scriptural. I personally hold to human depravity not total depravity. I believe the gospel is the power to salvation and it is sufficient and needs not more grace to make it work. Faith is not a gift salvation is.Faith is acquired by hearing the word of God.
37818
Well-Known Member
I believe in total deprivity, a case in point is Romans 3:11, there are none. And I am not a Calvinist.
No but yeshua is
Yes, but you are dealing with Calvinists. They change the meaning of words, take scripture out of context, say scripture addressed to everyone is addressed to a particular group, say scripture addressed to a particular group of people applies to everyone, etc. etc. etc. etc.
What is the order of salvation? Is it regeneration <indeterminate amount of time passes> and then faith/belief/salvation <all happen simultaneously> ?
No. People hear the gospel, believe through faith, and are given the gift of eternal life and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Monergism is Calvinism without Calvin in the name. It revolves around the doctrines of grace and repentance before faith in the ordo salutis. Some people like the term Mongergist because they associate Calvinism with all of John Calvin's theology.
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37818
Well-Known Member
I am not a Calvinist, but I agree God's grace is first and that reprentance precedes faith. That is just Biblical. I do disagree with the notion of regeneration preceding faith. It is God's word which is living (Hebrews 4:12; John 17:17). It is sanctification in the Spirit and belief in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13). In that order, as I understand this.
I actually meant to type "regeneration precedes faith" but I got my R's crossed.
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37818
Well-Known Member
OK. Can you show this simply from Scripture?
*sigh* I have done that soooo many times on this board. I am on the road right now. I will do it later.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Ok and thank you.
Spiritu!al dead sinners have the mind that is against God though, and it takes the Holy Spirit Himself to make that needed change!
Well, at least some headway being made here, as some do so hold to total depravity!