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Monergists & Synergists: Divide or Unify?
- Thread starter Reformed
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It would bother me if I had to sit under Synergist teaching on a regular basis. That is not what this thread is about. However, it does warm the cockles of my heart to know that you are so concerned about me.
You brought it up, and it's your thread, so I don't know why you are getting defensive about it. I just responded to your own post.
Yeah, but shhhhh!! Don't tell anyone.
I have a image of Brother Larry whilst he was at it testing the quality of that 'white lightning'...
If I know the brother, he has sherry casks where he puts the distilled stuff for 12 years ...... Larry's private label. And I say, good for him. :laugh:
I happen to believe that Adam was elect. Yes. He did sin. As our federal head he acted as humanity's fair and just representative. But I also believe Adam was forgiven for his sin (Gen. 3:21). Adam sinned freely. All sinners sin freely. Prior to sinning Adam was what theologians describe as posse pecare, posse non pecare (able to sin, able not to sin). Once Adam sinned his nature became non posse non pecare (not able not to sin). All of us, prior to our conversion, are in that last category. Once we are converted we become as Adam first was, posse pecare, posse non pecare (able to sin, able not sin).
steaver said:
I actually appreciate you saying this without any added pejoratives about Monergism. Of course we disagree!
LOL I am not defensive about it. I have been trying to be gracious in my responses in this thread. I am fine with it. Unless, of course, you are calling me a liar. Are you calling me a liar?
Brother, sounds like all this is an attempt to get out of saying Adam had freewill to make a choice. Really?
Liar about what? Your losing me.....
Steve, he has multiple reasons for starting this conversations.....so how far do you want to go with this?
convicted1
Guest
--so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam [is] for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual [is] not first, but that which [was] natural, afterwards that which [is] spiritual. The first man [is] out of the earth, earthy; the second man [is] the Lord out of heaven;(1 Cor. 15:45-48)
Everyone is born in the first Adam, the church, the body of Christ is born in the last Adam, Christ...
Amen! :thumbsup:
Forget it.
Ah haa ha....that's funny!
OK then you want to go there then! FROM MY PROSPECTIVE or my very own convictions are that humans face at some point in their lives the choice to either submit to the will of God or to pursue their own will, and this choice has implications for everything we think and do. My choice then is a theocentric perspective that I believe is the correct understanding of God and therefore of the world that He has made for His glory.
Actually not everyone will be offered this choice. God does not promise equity. That means there are sinners who will never hear the Gospel, ergo they cannot submit to it. That may seem unfair, but God does not have to acquiesce to human fairness. However, I do agree that those who have heard the Gospel have a choice to make. Can you believe that a Monergist said that? Actually that is consistent with Mongerism. But I digress.
Earth said:
That is where each one of is at. We believe our understanding is correct, ergo other understandings are incorrect.
Exactly :thumbs:
So how would you expect someone who squarely has his own beliefs to sit under a pastor who he believes has faulty theology.....you cant! And once more how could you expect a man to bring his family to a church that he believes teaches faulty theology?? You cant.....but from my perspective its up to the father to teach theology to the family anyway....but if he is getting it from a faulty source then it permiates (sic) throughout the family...kinda like what we used to say about programming computers....'garbage in garbage out. ' therefore I'm a proponent of going to the church that best represents your beliefs. And that's w/o trying to be condenseing to another persons faith beliefs.
OK. Well, this is a bit of a rabbit trail, but I will chase the ole feller to his hole.
There are certain doctrines that you can live with and certain doctrines you cannot. For instance - let us say providence puts me in an area where there are no Mongergist churches. None. Zip. Zoo. Zilch. In that case I would find a church that preaches Christ. In my experience most conservative Synergist churches never even mention free will when presenting the Gospel. The preacher may be a Synergist (whether he calls himself that or not), but he may deliver a solid, biblical message. If I had no other choice, I would find the best church I could and attend there. I may not be able to join for conscience sake. The former church I was a member of had, in its doctrinal statement, a requirement that members must agree with it. At the time I joined I was a dispensationalist, so I had no problem with their pro-dispensational stand. But as time went on, and my views changed I had to deal with that issue. I resolved it by joining a new church plant in the area. Had there been no other solid church in the area, I would have gone to the pastor and deacons and asked if an exception could be made because of conscience. If they declined then I would have resigned my membership but still attended.
I do not know the doctrinal issues that have caused you to draw a line in the sand. I think we should draw those lines on the fundamental doctrines of the faith. Anything else we should be able to live with, even if we vehemently disagree. If not then we will have a nation of Christians meeting in their own homes each Lord's Day and a fractured body of Christ.
Bring your enemies to your still and they won't be your enemies anymore.
He has a still!
Yeah, but shhhhh!! Don't tell anyone.
I have a image of Brother Larry whilst he was at it testing the quality of that 'white lightning'...
Hardy har har.... this redneck don't even like corn liquor.
Reformed
Let me begin this thread by asking some questions.
yes as far as worshipping in a local church goes.
It is major.
Where this can be a practical issue is when someone relocates. There are many churches with strengths and weaknesses. In searching for a local church a person has to be careful not to undermine existing works.
There is a need to be charitable unless the person shows themselves to oppose truth to a point of being an enemy of the cross.
Let me begin this thread by asking some questions.
yes as far as worshipping in a local church goes.
Yes....there is only one truth.
It is major.
Where this can be a practical issue is when someone relocates. There are many churches with strengths and weaknesses. In searching for a local church a person has to be careful not to undermine existing works.
There is a need to be charitable unless the person shows themselves to oppose truth to a point of being an enemy of the cross.
steaver
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Some might not have liked how I worded my responses.They might not say it in the same way....but they were not outside the camp ,even when you tried to twist the quotes a bit....
Like here Steaver....You stated that "perhaps" the Spirit was failing to teach the sheep.....you were given jn 10:26-27...that you do not get it is not my fault.....by the way...goats do not believe in tulip, no they do not believe in most any truth, that is why they ARE GOATS.
That is true, and I started a thread on this very topic which you hid from like an ostritch. 160 posts and not one by you:thumbsup:
many quotes from historic teachers all affirming exactly what I said and not a peep from you....interesting
here is another chance steaver...in case you missed it;
from various commentaries;
I PRAY THAT THE EYES OF YOUR HEART MAY BE ENLIGHTENED: pephotismenous (RPPMPA) tous ophthalmous tes kardias [humon] : (1Peter 5:8; Psalms 119:18; Isaiah 6:10; 29:10,18; 32:3; 42:7; Matthew 13:15; Luke 24:45; Acts 16:14; 26:18; 2Corinthians 4:4,6; Hebrews 10:32)
SPIRITUAL EYES
MacDonald - We have seen that the source of spiritual illumination is God; the channel is the Holy Spirit; and the supreme subject is the full knowledge of God. Now we come to the organs of enlightenment: the eyes of your hearts (NKJV margin ) being enlightened. (Believer's Bible Commentary)
Those for whom Paul is praying were once "spiritually blind" walking around in "spiritual darkness" as he reminded them of later writing that "you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (Eph 5:8-note)
Wiersbe - In the prison prayers of Paul (Eph. 1:15–23; 3:14–21; Phil. 1:9–11; Col. 1:9–12), we discover the blessings he wanted his converts to enjoy. In none of these prayers does Paul request material things. His emphasis is on spiritual perception and real Christian character. He does not ask God to give them what they do not have, but rather prays that God will reveal to them what they already have.
Lawrence Richards has a pithy comment stating that "One way to build our own prayer lives, and to direct our intercession for others, is to model our prayers on those found in Scripture. Here we see a prayer Paul offered with the intention of strengthening Christ’s church. What did Paul ask? That we might know God better (Ep 1:17). That we might look beyond appearances, to see the church as God does—a people transformed to display His glory, unspeakably precious to Him (Ep 1:18). That we might sense and experience the working of “His incomparably great power for us who believe” (Ep 1:19a). I suppose it’s all right to pray for that addition to a new Sunday School wing. Or the funds to go on the radio. But if we want our church to truly be the church, the things Paul prayed for here are vastly more important. (Richards, L. The 365 Day Devotional Commentary. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books)
Eyes (3788) (ophthalmos) is literally the organ of vision but in Paul's use is obviously figurative. It is a beautiful picture, the heart being regarded as having eyes looking out toward God and all of the spiritual blessings that have their source and supply in God's Beloved Son. Proper understanding of spiritual truth is not dependent on having a keen intellect but rather a tender heart! Is your heart tender to the Word of God? Do you hunger and thirst for God as a deer does for the water brooks?
Paul is praying for a deeper spiritual understanding, that "Ah Ha" reaction we have when we begin to really understand something and exclaim "I see it! I finally see what you’re telling me, Lord!" That's what Paul is praying for here. Why? Why would he be praying for this "Ah Ha" enlightenment? Remember that the first three chapters are doctrine but the last three begin with how we are to walk. Paul knows that as a man thinks in his heart, his spiritual interior, will determine how he walks. And so he prays that these saints might be able to grasp the breadth and length and height and depth of the great truths in this chapter, so that they might be enabled by the indwelling Spirit and the riches of God's grace to order their steps in a manner which is pleasing to the Lord.
The psalmist understood that the supernatural Word of God was unlike any writing of man and thus pleaded with God to...
Open (Hebrew galah = Piel stem always denotes "to uncover" something which otherwise is normally concealed. LXX translates with apokalupto from apó = from + kalúpto = cover, conceal which means literally to uncover and so to remove the veil or covering exposing to open view what was before hidden.
The Greek tense is aorist imperative which speaks in context of a request in the form of a command and speaks of urgency and need) my eyes, that I may behold (careful, sustained, and favorable contemplation - LXX translates with katanoeo from kata = down + noeo is literally to the the mind down on and speaks of giving very careful consideration to some matter, think about very carefully, consider closely. observe fully, consider attentively denotes action of mind apprehending certain facts about a thing) wonderful (amazing, astounding, marvelous, extraordinary or even difficult - things beyond human capability) things from Thy law. (Psalm 119:18) (Comment: When you open your Bible, ask the Author to open your heart)
Heart (2588) (kardia [word study]) is not the literal organ that circulates ancients considered the heart the center of knowledge, understanding, thinking, wisdom. The heart the seat of the mind and will, and it could be taught what the brain could never know. The "heart" in Scripture speaks of the very center and core of one's life, the seat of thought and moral judgment.
The heart is the seat of emotions in some cultures, but in the Greek culture it was not. In the Greek culture the seat of emotions would be the intestines. The heart was the seat of understanding.
This deep, interior enlightenment is undoubtedly the result of the work of the Holy Spirit Who leads the believer to know (eido) intuitively all that God has made available to him in Christ, and in essence to come to understand what it means to be "in Christ" or "in Him". They knew to a degree what the concept of being "in Christ" meant but not in a deep intuitive way. That is what Paul desires for them and for all believers.
Paul prayed that believers would know the three things mentioned not in their head but in their hearts, the very essence of their being. When we know them in the head and not the heart, we are simply "smarter sinners" but when we know them in our heart, we will become more like our Savior.
Note that the KJV translated from the Greek Textus Receptus (the is from the Nestle-Aland Greek) does not have "heart" (kardia) but has the word "understanding" which is the noun dianoia an old word for the faculty of understanding. It speaks of a clarity of mind or understanding by which one is able to see things intelligibly and clearly and proceed accordingly. Virtually all the authorities agree that "heart" is the correct translation.
__________________
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Some might not have liked how I worded my responses.They might not say it in the same way....but they were not outside the camp ,even when you tried to twist the quotes a bit....
Like here Steaver....You stated that "perhaps" the Spirit was failing to teach the sheep.....you were given jn 10:26-27...that you do not get it is not my fault.....by the way...goats do not believe in tulip, no they do not believe in most any truth, that is why they ARE GOATS.
,
That is true, and I started a thread on this very topic which you hid from like an ostritch. 160 posts and not one by you:thumbsup:
many quotes from historic teachers all affirming exactly what I said and not a peep from you....interesting
here is another chance steaver...in case you missed it;
from various commentaries;
I PRAY THAT THE EYES OF YOUR HEART MAY BE ENLIGHTENED: pephotismenous (RPPMPA) tous ophthalmous tes kardias [humon] : (1Peter 5:8; Psalms 119:18; Isaiah 6:10; 29:10,18; 32:3; 42:7; Matthew 13:15; Luke 24:45; Acts 16:14; 26:18; 2Corinthians 4:4,6; Hebrews 10:32)
SPIRITUAL EYES
MacDonald - We have seen that the source of spiritual illumination is God; the channel is the Holy Spirit; and the supreme subject is the full knowledge of God. Now we come to the organs of enlightenment: the eyes of your hearts (NKJV margin ) being enlightened. (Believer's Bible Commentary)
Those for whom Paul is praying were once "spiritually blind" walking around in "spiritual darkness" as he reminded them of later writing that "you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (Eph 5:8-note)
Wiersbe - In the prison prayers of Paul (Eph. 1:15–23; 3:14–21; Phil. 1:9–11; Col. 1:9–12), we discover the blessings he wanted his converts to enjoy. In none of these prayers does Paul request material things. His emphasis is on spiritual perception and real Christian character. He does not ask God to give them what they do not have, but rather prays that God will reveal to them what they already have.
Lawrence Richards has a pithy comment stating that "One way to build our own prayer lives, and to direct our intercession for others, is to model our prayers on those found in Scripture. Here we see a prayer Paul offered with the intention of strengthening Christ’s church. What did Paul ask? That we might know God better (Ep 1:17). That we might look beyond appearances, to see the church as God does—a people transformed to display His glory, unspeakably precious to Him (Ep 1:18). That we might sense and experience the working of “His incomparably great power for us who believe” (Ep 1:19a). I suppose it’s all right to pray for that addition to a new Sunday School wing. Or the funds to go on the radio. But if we want our church to truly be the church, the things Paul prayed for here are vastly more important. (Richards, L. The 365 Day Devotional Commentary. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books)
Eyes (3788) (ophthalmos) is literally the organ of vision but in Paul's use is obviously figurative. It is a beautiful picture, the heart being regarded as having eyes looking out toward God and all of the spiritual blessings that have their source and supply in God's Beloved Son. Proper understanding of spiritual truth is not dependent on having a keen intellect but rather a tender heart! Is your heart tender to the Word of God? Do you hunger and thirst for God as a deer does for the water brooks?
Paul is praying for a deeper spiritual understanding, that "Ah Ha" reaction we have when we begin to really understand something and exclaim "I see it! I finally see what you’re telling me, Lord!" That's what Paul is praying for here. Why? Why would he be praying for this "Ah Ha" enlightenment? Remember that the first three chapters are doctrine but the last three begin with how we are to walk. Paul knows that as a man thinks in his heart, his spiritual interior, will determine how he walks. And so he prays that these saints might be able to grasp the breadth and length and height and depth of the great truths in this chapter, so that they might be enabled by the indwelling Spirit and the riches of God's grace to order their steps in a manner which is pleasing to the Lord.
The psalmist understood that the supernatural Word of God was unlike any writing of man and thus pleaded with God to...
Open (Hebrew galah = Piel stem always denotes "to uncover" something which otherwise is normally concealed. LXX translates with apokalupto from apó = from + kalúpto = cover, conceal which means literally to uncover and so to remove the veil or covering exposing to open view what was before hidden.
The Greek tense is aorist imperative which speaks in context of a request in the form of a command and speaks of urgency and need) my eyes, that I may behold (careful, sustained, and favorable contemplation - LXX translates with katanoeo from kata = down + noeo is literally to the the mind down on and speaks of giving very careful consideration to some matter, think about very carefully, consider closely. observe fully, consider attentively denotes action of mind apprehending certain facts about a thing) wonderful (amazing, astounding, marvelous, extraordinary or even difficult - things beyond human capability) things from Thy law. (Psalm 119:18) (Comment: When you open your Bible, ask the Author to open your heart)
Heart (2588) (kardia [word study]) is not the literal organ that circulates ancients considered the heart the center of knowledge, understanding, thinking, wisdom. The heart the seat of the mind and will, and it could be taught what the brain could never know. The "heart" in Scripture speaks of the very center and core of one's life, the seat of thought and moral judgment.
The heart is the seat of emotions in some cultures, but in the Greek culture it was not. In the Greek culture the seat of emotions would be the intestines. The heart was the seat of understanding.
This deep, interior enlightenment is undoubtedly the result of the work of the Holy Spirit Who leads the believer to know (eido) intuitively all that God has made available to him in Christ, and in essence to come to understand what it means to be "in Christ" or "in Him". They knew to a degree what the concept of being "in Christ" meant but not in a deep intuitive way. That is what Paul desires for them and for all believers.
Paul prayed that believers would know the three things mentioned not in their head but in their hearts, the very essence of their being. When we know them in the head and not the heart, we are simply "smarter sinners" but when we know them in our heart, we will become more like our Savior.
Note that the KJV translated from the Greek Textus Receptus (the is from the Nestle-Aland Greek) does not have "heart" (kardia) but has the word "understanding" which is the noun dianoia an old word for the faculty of understanding. It speaks of a clarity of mind or understanding by which one is able to see things intelligibly and clearly and proceed accordingly. Virtually all the authorities agree that "heart" is the correct translation.
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