Monergists & Synergists: Divide or Unify?

[PreachTony]

so your saying the whole chapter is only about the one question and is no other teaching here at all .
its versus to fill in the chapter we can't learn anything here thats no teaching nothing .
nothing to comment on it's just about the one question

No, I'm not saying it's only about "one question." I was responding to you. You quoted only a portion and asked what it was about.

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

We can endlessly debate the meaning of even these opening six verses. I'm sure your side of the discussion would say that the "sheep know the shepherd's voice" is an indication of Calvinist election. My side can say that the same phrase is an indication of our ability to understand the guidance and leadership of God, and how we can know when it is a doctrine of falsehood.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus continues the parable of the sheep. Again, we see a point of possible contention in the 9th verse, where Jesus says "if any man enter in, he shall be saved." This, the Free Will / Arminian would say proves that man has some input in his own salvation.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So much doctrine and theology can come from this small stretch of scripture. I won't drill too deeply into that. Rather, we have the Lord continuing the sheep parable, emphasizing again and again the failures of the Jews who had been, for the most part, sole recipients of the gospel until this point.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

Key here is verse 22. Does this verse indicate a passage of time separating the first part of the chapter and the second? It seems an odd time to suddenly insert an indication of the current time. If it is a passage of time, then we cannot necessarily hold the two halves of the chapter together as a single episode, even though the language of Christ is similar. If it is not, and is instead just a seemingly random accounting of time, then we proceed as we have been.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Here's the section we've been dealing with, which in many ways serves as an encapsulation of much of this chapter. A group of Jews confront Jesus and question Him about His role as Christ. They ask Him outright to confirm Himself. Instead, He reminds them that they have been told who He is, but they believed not.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Depending on your theological bend (concerning eternal security) then verses 28 and 29 can dictate a lot of doctrine on the eternal nature of salvation (OSAS, etc.) Again, the Jews display an almost uncanny hatred of Christ. He even questions them, driving home the point of why they are choosing to do the things they are doing.

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Jesus confronts the Jews gathered about Him on their desire to stone Him. We have to remember that these people were brought up in a religious system dominated by the Pharisees who displayed a proven obstinate stubbornness against Christ.

40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

The close of the chapter reveals Jesus withdrawing from the Temple and going to the place where John baptized. People then came to Him there and believed on Him.


So, no, the whole chapter is not about a single question. But that single question does encapsulate much of that chapter. It draws in many of the teachings that Christ has spoken of, and it seeks the response of people. But none of that really matters because the issue at hand is how you apply these verses in question to those who do not hold to your doctrine. You can skirt the issue all you want, but you are the one saying that those who do not hold to your doctrine have either not yet heard the voice of the Shepherd or, much worse, are simply not His sheep to begin with. All because they don't hold to your doctrine.

 

[Iconoclast]

[PreachTony

So much doctrine and theology can come from this small stretch of scripture.

:thumbsup:


6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.


the T
There is a reason they did not understand.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

11 I am the good shepherd {the promise of ezk 34;}

11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.


the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

The L
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

The U

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

The L

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd

The I

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



the Covenant of Redemption before the world was


25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

The T

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

The T...
How did the sheep become sheep? when was it planned? is everyman a sheep? Ae their other sheep? are their goats? There is no mention of free will anywhere. vs 9 is a statement of fact.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
The U and the P

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,


The u and The P


neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The P


29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

The P


We look at the same words on the page, but focus in two different spots.

Depending on your theological bend (concerning eternal security) then verses 28 and 29 can dictate a lot of doctrine on the eternal nature of salvation (OSAS, etc.) Again, the Jews display an almost uncanny hatred of Christ. He even questions them, driving home the point of why they are choosing to do the things they are doing.

Jesus confronts the Jews gathered about Him on their desire to stone Him. We have to remember that these people were brought up in a religious system dominated by the Pharisees who displayed a proven obstinate stubbornness against Christ.

jer 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.

The close of the chapter reveals Jesus withdrawing from the Temple and going to the place where John baptized. People then came to Him there and believed on Him.

jn2:
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

So, no, the whole chapter is not about a single question. But that single question does encapsulate much of that chapter. It draws in many of the teachings that Christ has spoken of, and it seeks the response of people. But none of that really matters because the issue at hand is how you apply these verses in question to those who do not hold to your doctrine.

Or...the issue at hand is what the chapter is about, the teaching being offered by Jesus,
[notice...I was not asked to add any doctrine here...it was Jesus teaching, His doctrine} ...Now I do believe Jesus doctrine:thumbsup:
and like those in jn 6...they walked away unable to welcome Divine truth.....

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

You can skirt the issue all you want, but you are the one saying that those who do not hold to your doctrine

Again is it my doctrine, or Jesus doctrine?

have either not yet heard the voice of the Shepherd or, much worse, are simply not His sheep to begin with.

Is this a possibility PT?

Is that why paul wrote this?

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

All because they don't hold to your doctrine.

Again...where did I post that they do not hold "my Doctrine".

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

another episode of leave it to steaver....

Brother Icon, it is ok to say what you believe to be true.

really:laugh: then keep that in mind before you continue to try and be my spokesman....You answer for you, I will handle my answers without your distorted help.

You don't have to try to mask it and pretty it up somehow.

I do not need to at all.

It's not your own reasoning that leads you to this final conclusion that no belief in TULIP = No sheep.

Poor little steaver tries this again even though he has been unable to produce such a quote....word for word indeed...:laugh:

SBM has gone even further into it,

Do not hide behind him...you need to answer for yourself...sadly looks like you cannot.

 

[PreachTony]

Is this a possibility PT?

Is that why paul wrote this?

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.


Again...where did I post that they do not hold "my Doctrine".

Firstly, when I say "your doctrine" I am referring to your unyielding belief in TULIP. It is "your doctrine" in so much as you subscribe to it. I do not mean it as an indication of a doctrine that you personally devised.

That said, we're right back where we started. Is it possible? Sure. A lot of things are possible. It's possible that there are unsaved Calvinists. Given what I know of Calvinist teaching, it's possible that you would have to admit that even you might not be one of the Elect. You simply cannot know. You can try to say that the revelation of the Spirit in showing you scriptural things is proof of your election, but even Calvin himself said that there are those that God allows to be illumined only for a time, but not for eternity.

And you are right back to saying that those who do not comprehend or accept TULIP are not of His sheep. You can try to say that you are not saying this, but the truth is you are saying that TULIP is a teaching of Jesus (debatable, depending on your theological leaning) and you point out how those that did not hear the teaching of Jesus ('hear' in a meaningful sense, and not just take in through the ear) were not of His sheep. You're basically putting a label on every non-Calvinist on this board; saying that we might not even be of God's flock.

 

[TCassidy]

Just a little clarification. The earliest use of the acronym TULIP appears to be in 1905 by Rev. Cleland Boyd McAfee, in a lecture before the Presbyterian Union, Newark, NJ, as recorded by William H. Vail, writing in The New Outlook (1913). But that was not the beginning.

The Five Points or Five Heads of Doctrine as published in the Canons of the Synod of Dort date to 1618 and 1619. But that was not the beginning.

Augustine of Hippo wrote against both pelagianism and semi-pelagianism around the year 420 AD. But even that was not the beginning.

It begins in the bible.

“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons” (Eph. 1:4,5).

“You were dead in your transgressions and sins. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:1,5).

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

Firstly, when I say "your doctrine" I am referring to your unyielding belief in TULIP. It is "your doctrine" in so much as you subscribe to it. I do not mean it as an indication of a doctrine that you personally devised.

Thanks for that clarification and yet to make progress at all you would have to interact with this "doctrine Jesus taught here in Jn10...You did slightly mention that there might be some teaching along this line suggesting that a Cal might say.....this or that. :thumbsup:

And yet....saying you want to be bible based in your theology, you offered nothing on the sheep....[how did they become sheep?]

MY Sheep.....[how did they become Jesus sheep?]

I lay down my life for the sheep[ did Jesus do something for "His Sheep?]

Why do Jesus sheep obey? [and all others do not?]

Do all of these Sheep go to heaven?

For anyone to view this section of scripture and not mention these things seems as if it was intentionally avoided.

Listen PT.....I am not asking that you write a 142 page commentary on it however in light of this discussion it would seem that something should be offered here:thumbsup: I give you credit for responding and offering an overview of the chapter....many will not do so:wavey:
The more I have read it however.....it avoids the theology.

That said, we're right back where we started.

You and others want to speak of Cals being arrogant, but I see this avoidance of the issue perplexing. I do not want to look for more descriptive words to use...that will not help...As one Cal reading your response....it would be like reading jn1 without mentioning the WORD.

Is it possible? Sure. A lot of things are possible. It's possible that there are unsaved Calvinists.

I have mentioned that possibility in the last few threads.

Given what I know of Calvinist teaching, it's possible that you would have to admit that even you might not be one of the Elect. You simply cannot know.

Scripture says we can know and have a scriptural assurance.

You can try to say that the revelation of the Spirit in showing you scriptural things is proof of your election,

no...it is a support at best...but scripture speaks of a biblical assurance;

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

We are to fully understand ; our calling....and our election.
Have you ever preached on this text PT?

.

And you are right back to saying that those who do not comprehend or accept TULIP are not of His sheep.

I cannot say that because I know too many people who have at one time said they did not believe or understand these things come to embrace them.

Those who actively teach and preach against these truths are in greater danger. Saul railed against Christians and Christian truth, until God gave Him a new heart.

You can try to say that you are not saying this, but the truth is you are saying that TULIP is a teaching of Jesus (debatable, depending on your theological leaning)

I personally and speaking only for myself do not think this is debatable at all.

As long as Jn 6, 10, and 17 remain in the bible there is no debate.

and you point out

Scripture points this out....I just believe what it says....
jn 10 :2626 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,


mt 11:25 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.


mt 1311 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

how those that did not hear the teaching of Jesus ('hear' in a meaningful sense, and not just take in through the ear) were not of His sheep.

What do those verses say?

You're basically putting a label on every non-Calvinist on this board; saying that we might not even be of God's flock.[/QUOTE]

The only label might be...if the shoe fits wear it. Only God reads the heart...we read the posts however:wavey:

 

[steaver]

steaver

another episode of leave it to steaver....

I like this, catchy :thumbsup: If you remember those old leave it to beaver episodes, beaver's humble and childlike insights always played out to be quite observant and true! I guess you would be Eddie then

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." -Jesus

"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I like this, catchy :thumbsup: If you remember those old leave it to beaver episodes, beaver's humble and childlike insights always played out to be quite observant and true! I guess you would be Eddie then

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." -Jesus

"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

Or Lumpy!:smilewinkgrin: I wanna be June....loved the pearls! Now go wash up boys, its amnost time for dinner. Lol!

 

[PreachTony]

Thanks for that clarification and yet to make progress at all you would have to interact with this "doctrine Jesus taught here in Jn10...You did slightly mention that there might be some teaching along this line suggesting that a Cal might say.....this or that.

And yet....saying you want to be bible based in your theology, you offered nothing on the sheep....[how did they become sheep?]

MY Sheep.....[how did they become Jesus sheep?]
I lay down my life for the sheep[ did Jesus do something for "His Sheep?]
Why do Jesus sheep obey? [and all others do not?]
Do all of these Sheep go to heaven?

For anyone to view this section of scripture and not mention these things seems as if it was intentionally avoided.

Listen PT.....I am not asking that you write a 142 page commentary on it however in light of this discussion it would seem that something should be offered here:thumbsup: I give you credit for responding and offering an overview of the chapter....many will not do so:wavey:
The more I have read it however.....it avoids the theology.

I never want you to think that I am intentionally avoiding a theological issue, Icon. I will discuss and debate as I can, and if I don't know something I try to be man enough to say I don't know and then I try to learn. (and thank you for not requiring a 142 page commentary...I don't have that kind of time at the moment)

So let's talk about the sheep, because I have done some study, limited though it may be, on this topic and I see two competing ideas, both of which seem to respectively encapsulate the Calvinist predestination position and the Free Will / Arminian position.

The question I want to start with is this: What does Jesus mean by saying "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me?" (John 10:27) Does He mean they are His sheep from eternity past (the Calvinist position) or does this scripture apply to all ages of Christianity as pertains to the teaching of the Word? After all, if we hold to a form of cessationism then we believe that God no longer speaks to us as He did during the days of the OT and the apostles, but now speaks to us through the scriptures, hence the philosophy of sola scriptura.

If we adopt the first position, then your argument has its basis. The sheep were set aside form eternity past (unconditionally elected). They hear His voice (irresistible grace), and they know Him. If we adopt the second position, then we are left with the overwhelming truth of scripture being evident to those who believe, thus we know if a teaching is true or not, and we figuratively "hear His voice." I wish was better at elucidating this point, because I feel like my explanation is not really catching every point that I wish to make.

You and others want to speak of Cals being arrogant, but I see this avoidance of the issue perplexing. I do not want to look for more descriptive words to use...that will not help...As one Cal reading your response....it would be like reading jn1 without mentioning the WORD.

Again, not an intentional avoidance. We are working in somewhat limited space here... :smilewinkgrin:

Scripture says we can know and have a scriptural assurance.

no...it is a support at best...but scripture speaks of a biblical assurance;

I'm glad to hear you say this, Icon. I've read things from some Cals (perhaps more along the spectrum toward hyper-Cals) saying that they couldn't even be 100% sure of their own election. That you can point toward scripture that you believe shows you assurance of salvation warms my heart.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

We are to fully understand ; our calling....and our election.
Have you ever preached on this text PT?

I have preached from 1 Peter 2 before, though obviously our ideas of what is meant by "election" are tempered by our stances on the Calvinism theology. Since I don't hold to Calvinist election I cannot preach it the same way you would.

Like you, I believe we can find assurance of our salvation from the Lord. I believe the Lord shows us things that bring to mind our conversion. Some of these we can set up for ourselves, establishing waymarks pointing back to the path we should be walking for those times we backslide. Sometimes the Lord may call to our mind the time we were saved (the old-timers around here call that "going back to Bethel") or He'll show us other times of great spiritual happening in our lives (I often find myself revisiting the time I announced my calling to preach the Word and I find great strength in that moment).

I cannot say that because I know too many people who have at one time said they did not believe or understand these things come to embrace them.

Those who actively teach and preach against these truths are in greater danger. Saul railed against Christians and Christian truth, until God gave Him a new heart.

Do you not see that you say it already, whether you intend it or not? You hold to TULIP being the truth, and I would not have you surrender your convictions. But you use this scripture from John 10 to say that those who do not hear the truth are not His sheep. It's not exactly a long logical leap for me to see your statement as saying that I (since I do not hold to TULIP) do not hold to truth, and therefore I cannot be one of His sheep. And then you tack on to that statement that I, and others like me, are in greater danger, because we do not preach what you view as the truth. None of this may be intended as a personal attack on anyone here at the BB, but it is a position you have now stated several times, and it's hard not to take it personally, as you are, intentionally or not, condemning a large portion of the board for not being supporters of TULIP.

I personally and speaking only for myself do not think this is debatable at all.

As long as Jn 6, 10, and 17 remain in the bible there is no debate.

Of course you don't. I don't think it is debatable that the Bible shows us at least some degree of synergism, but we still debate it. Each of us will hold tightly to the doctrines they believe the Bible supports. Thankfully we have a (for the most part) civil forum in which to discuss these ideas. If any one of us goes too far out of line we can basically self-regulate and regain the middle ground of civility and discussion.

The only label might be...if the shoe fits wear it. Only God reads the heart...we read the posts however:wavey:

Not gonna lie...I'm kinda confused by this one, Icon.

 

[Iconoclast]

PT

In post 186...I asked 4 questions about the sheep in JN 10.... I f time permits could you offer your thoughts on those questions

those 4 questions plus your understanding of Jn 10:26

 

[Iconoclast]

...................double post

 

[Iconoclast]

I like this, catchy :thumbsup: If you remember those old leave it to beaver episodes, beaver's humble and childlike insights always played out to be quite observant and true! I guess you would be Eddie then

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." -Jesus

"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

Beaver seemed to exhibit the sin nature in being somewhat sneaky......Ward and June did not have a bible prominently displayed in the house. They while outwardly moral were part of a time where people lived a moral life....without the scriptures being primary.....as if to say you can be just as nice as Christians without being immersed in scripture in worship and service to God.
Wally had to get the Beaver to think about life in a different way. Here many Wallys are trying to help THE STEAVER see more clearly.
That ability comes from God but He uses other sheep to remove obstacles.

 

[PreachTony]

In post 186...I asked 4 questions about the sheep in JN 10.... I f time permits could you offer your thoughts on those questions

those 4 questions plus your understanding of Jn 10:26

I'll give it a shot. As I said in my reply, I've studied this, though obviously my study is limited. I'll try my best to give you my take on the scripture. I actually think understanding the questions you asked reveals our understanding of John 10:26.

MY Sheep.....[how did they become Jesus sheep?]

I tried to answer this through the framework of what does it mean to be a sheep, as that informs the answer of how they came to be. Obviously, the Cal position is that they were foreordained/elected to be His sheep, but that can potentially get into some murky waters concerning eternal salvation in the past. If they are His sheep as a result of predestination, then does that mean they were born as His sheep? Are they saved because they are His sheep? Or, as the Free Will position holds, do they become His sheep as a result of their salvation?

I lay down my life for the sheep[ did Jesus do something for "His Sheep?]

Yes, Jesus died for us. This issue is greatly informed by your position on the first question. As I asked, are we saved because we are His sheep, or are we His sheep because we are saved? If it is the first one, then you truly have Limited Atonement, as Christ only died for a select group. (I avoided the word "few" because I know that bothers you, Icon.) If it is the second group, then the ability to be one of His sheep is opened to all humanity. Regardless our belief, Christ did die for us.

Why do Jesus sheep obey? [and all others do not?]

If the Monergist position is true, then people obey because they have no other choice but to obey after God has regenerated and saved them. They are become a new creature. Just as the non-Elect have no choice but to continue in rejection, the Sheep have no choice but to obey. It is a severe lack of autonomy among humanity. If the Free Will position is true, (and I'm going to speak from my own experience) then the Sheep obey because they graciously rejoice and thank God for what He has done for them. That thankfulness is translated into obedience. Obviously this does not apply to all, but it applies to me (as best I can, seeing that I'm still in the flesh, and therefore still bound by the corruption of the curse.

Do all of these Sheep go to heaven?

You're asking me to make a call that is not mine to make. Assuming the first question to be true from the Cal perspective, then yes, they would, as they are elect. But Calvin himself even admits that there are some who appear as believers to us, but these are the one that God has illumined only for a brief time, so that He may forsake them for ungratefulness and strike them with greater blindness.

 

[steaver]

Beaver seemed to exhibit the sin nature in being somewhat sneaky......Ward and June did not have a bible prominently displayed in the house. They while outwardly moral were part of a time where people lived a moral life....without the scriptures being primary.....as if to say you can be just as nice as Christians without being immersed in scripture in worship and service to God.
Wally had to get the Beaver to think about life in a different way. Here many Wallys are trying to help THE STEAVER see more clearly.
That ability comes from God but He uses other sheep to remove obstacles.

Naw, I think your more like Eddie :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

I tried to answer this through the framework of what does it mean to be a sheep, as that informs the answer of how they came to be.

The bible simply says that sheep are men ,PT....do we need to be informed on this?

Obviously, the Cal position is that they were foreordained/elected to be His sheep,

Is this the Cal position??? or is it the clear declaration of scripture that all believers are meant to believe? Cals do believe what it says.
I think it is clear and attempts to avoid this truth are exactly that...moving away from truth. Perhaps we should focus on revealed truth more than positions????

but that can potentially get into some murky waters concerning eternal salvation in the past.

There are no murky waters...eph 2:1-10 lays it out.

If they are His sheep as a result of predestination,

no...We are sheep simply because of election.Predestination is regarding sanctification.

then does that mean they were born as His sheep?

His SHEEP are born lost. He has come to seek and to save HIS SHEEP who were lost.

Non elect persons are lost and condemned in sin. They are not going to be found. They are not given to the Son to seek and to save..
heb2:
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

jn6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day


There is no murky water, there is no other position. The Father has given a multitude to the Son, He comes to seek and save them...no more no less.

The others are left to follow what their self will has them to do.

Are they saved because they are His sheep?

Yes...that is why They were given to Him to save.

?Or, as the Free Will position holds, do they become His sheep as a result of their salvation

No one becomes sheep....Sheep that were given to Jesus were given before the world was....You do not start as a goat and become sheep.

Yes, Jesus died for us. This issue is greatly informed by your position on the first question.

The biblical truth is straight forward.

As I asked, are we saved because we are His sheep, or are we His sheep because we are saved? If it is the first one, then you truly have Limited Atonement, as Christ only died for a select group

.

Jesus settled that in Jn 10...verse 26 could not be more clearly written.

You believe not...Because you are not my sheep.

If it is the second group, then the ability to be one of His sheep is opened to all humanity

.

The problem here is it is not biblical at all.

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

The bible simply says that sheep are men ,PT....do we need to be informed on this?


Is this the Cal position??? or is it the clear declaration of scripture that all believers are meant to believe? Cals do believe what it says.
I think it is clear and attempts to avoid this truth are exactly that...moving away from truth. Perhaps we should focus on revealed truth more than positions????


There are no murky waters...eph 2:1-10 lays it out.



no...We are sheep simply because of election.Predestination is regarding sanctification.


His SHEEP are born lost. He has come to seek and to save HIS SHEEP who were lost.

Non elect persons are lost and condemned in sin. They are not going to be found. They are not given to the Son to seek and to save..
heb2:
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

jn6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day


There is no murky water, there is no other position. The Father has given a multitude to the Son, He comes to seek and save them...no more no less.

The others are left to follow what their self will has them to do.


Yes...that is why They were given to Him to save.



No one becomes sheep....Sheep that were given to Jesus were given before the world was....You do not start as a goat and become sheep.



The biblical truth is straight forward.

.

Jesus settled that in Jn 10...verse 26 could not be more clearly written.

You believe not...Because you are not my sheep.

.

The problem here is it is not biblical at all.

Man died in the fall....he does not desire to know God, on God's terms.To deny the effects of the fall leads to theological error gone wild.

 

[Iconoclast]

Pt

the question i want to start with is this: What does jesus mean by saying "my sheep hear my voice, and i know them, and they follow me?" (john 10:27) does he mean they are his sheep from eternity past (the calvinist position) or does this scripture apply to all ages of christianity as pertains to the teaching of the word?

What does 2 tim 1:9-19 mean to you PT?

If we adopt the first position, then your argument has its basis. The sheep were set aside form eternity past (unconditionally elected). They hear his voice (irresistible grace), and they know him.

I

PT....I do not think it is a multiple choice! To attempt to come up with a "second position"???? We would need to ignore many verses that speak clearly to God's election.

f we adopt the second position, then we are left with the overwhelming truth of scripture being evident to those who believe,

This is to ignore mans condition and God's remedy. Everyone believing will be saved as God works in them. You do not have to set aside all the verses on election.

thus we know if a teaching is true or not, and we figuratively "hear his voice." i wish was better at elucidating this point, because i feel like my explanation is not really catching every point that i wish to make.

PT you are looking at the positive verses on belief which is fine, but you leave out mans condition and need for God to work in him .

Not totally, because you sort of agree as there are many verses that speak of what happens after God intervenes in a persons life and experience.

................

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.