Featured Monergists & Synergists: Divide or Unify?

No, I'm not saying it's only about "one question." I was responding to you. You quoted only a portion and asked what it was about.

We can endlessly debate the meaning of even these opening six verses. I'm sure your side of the discussion would say that the "sheep know the shepherd's voice" is an indication of Calvinist election. My side can say that the same phrase is an indication of our ability to understand the guidance and leadership of God, and how we can know when it is a doctrine of falsehood.

Jesus continues the parable of the sheep. Again, we see a point of possible contention in the 9th verse, where Jesus says "if any man enter in, he shall be saved." This, the Free Will / Arminian would say proves that man has some input in his own salvation.

So much doctrine and theology can come from this small stretch of scripture. I won't drill too deeply into that. Rather, we have the Lord continuing the sheep parable, emphasizing again and again the failures of the Jews who had been, for the most part, sole recipients of the gospel until this point.

Key here is verse 22. Does this verse indicate a passage of time separating the first part of the chapter and the second? It seems an odd time to suddenly insert an indication of the current time. If it is a passage of time, then we cannot necessarily hold the two halves of the chapter together as a single episode, even though the language of Christ is similar. If it is not, and is instead just a seemingly random accounting of time, then we proceed as we have been.

Here's the section we've been dealing with, which in many ways serves as an encapsulation of much of this chapter. A group of Jews confront Jesus and question Him about His role as Christ. They ask Him outright to confirm Himself. Instead, He reminds them that they have been told who He is, but they believed not.

Depending on your theological bend (concerning eternal security) then verses 28 and 29 can dictate a lot of doctrine on the eternal nature of salvation (OSAS, etc.) Again, the Jews display an almost uncanny hatred of Christ. He even questions them, driving home the point of why they are choosing to do the things they are doing.

Jesus confronts the Jews gathered about Him on their desire to stone Him. We have to remember that these people were brought up in a religious system dominated by the Pharisees who displayed a proven obstinate stubbornness against Christ.

The close of the chapter reveals Jesus withdrawing from the Temple and going to the place where John baptized. People then came to Him there and believed on Him.


So, no, the whole chapter is not about a single question. But that single question does encapsulate much of that chapter. It draws in many of the teachings that Christ has spoken of, and it seeks the response of people. But none of that really matters because the issue at hand is how you apply these verses in question to those who do not hold to your doctrine. You can skirt the issue all you want, but you are the one saying that those who do not hold to your doctrine have either not yet heard the voice of the Shepherd or, much worse, are simply not His sheep to begin with. All because they don't hold to your doctrine.

 

[PreachTony

:thumbsup:


6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.


the T
There is a reason they did not understand.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

11 I am the good shepherd {the promise of ezk 34;}

11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.


the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep

The L
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

The U

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

The L

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd

The I

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



the Covenant of Redemption before the world was


25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

The T

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

The T...
How did the sheep become sheep? when was it planned? is everyman a sheep? Ae their other sheep? are their goats? There is no mention of free will anywhere. vs 9 is a statement of fact.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
The U and the P

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,


The u and The P


neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The P


29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand

The P


We look at the same words on the page, but focus in two different spots.

jer 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.

jn2:
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Or...the issue at hand is what the chapter is about, the teaching being offered by Jesus,
[notice...I was not asked to add any doctrine here...it was Jesus teaching, His doctrine} ...Now I do believe Jesus doctrine:thumbsup:
and like those in jn 6...they walked away unable to welcome Divine truth.....

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Again is it my doctrine, or Jesus doctrine?

Is this a possibility PT?

Is that why paul wrote this?

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Again...where did I post that they do not hold "my Doctrine".

 

steaver

another episode of leave it to steaver....

really:laugh: then keep that in mind before you continue to try and be my spokesman....You answer for you, I will handle my answers without your distorted help.

I do not need to at all.

Poor little steaver tries this again even though he has been unable to produce such a quote....word for word indeed...:laugh:

Do not hide behind him...you need to answer for yourself...sadly looks like you cannot.

 

Firstly, when I say "your doctrine" I am referring to your unyielding belief in TULIP. It is "your doctrine" in so much as you subscribe to it. I do not mean it as an indication of a doctrine that you personally devised.

That said, we're right back where we started. Is it possible? Sure. A lot of things are possible. It's possible that there are unsaved Calvinists. Given what I know of Calvinist teaching, it's possible that you would have to admit that even you might not be one of the Elect. You simply cannot know. You can try to say that the revelation of the Spirit in showing you scriptural things is proof of your election, but even Calvin himself said that there are those that God allows to be illumined only for a time, but not for eternity.

And you are right back to saying that those who do not comprehend or accept TULIP are not of His sheep. You can try to say that you are not saying this, but the truth is you are saying that TULIP is a teaching of Jesus (debatable, depending on your theological leaning) and you point out how those that did not hear the teaching of Jesus ('hear' in a meaningful sense, and not just take in through the ear) were not of His sheep. You're basically putting a label on every non-Calvinist on this board; saying that we might not even be of God's flock.

 

PreachTony

Thanks for that clarification and yet to make progress at all you would have to interact with this "doctrine Jesus taught here in Jn10...You did slightly mention that there might be some teaching along this line suggesting that a Cal might say.....this or that. :thumbsup:

And yet....saying you want to be bible based in your theology, you offered nothing on the sheep....[how did they become sheep?]

MY Sheep.....[how did they become Jesus sheep?]

I lay down my life for the sheep[ did Jesus do something for "His Sheep?]

Why do Jesus sheep obey? [and all others do not?]

Do all of these Sheep go to heaven?

For anyone to view this section of scripture and not mention these things seems as if it was intentionally avoided.

Listen PT.....I am not asking that you write a 142 page commentary on it however in light of this discussion it would seem that something should be offered here:thumbsup: I give you credit for responding and offering an overview of the chapter....many will not do so:wavey:
The more I have read it however.....it avoids the theology.

You and others want to speak of Cals being arrogant, but I see this avoidance of the issue perplexing. I do not want to look for more descriptive words to use...that will not help...As one Cal reading your response....it would be like reading jn1 without mentioning the WORD.

I have mentioned that possibility in the last few threads.

Scripture says we can know and have a scriptural assurance.

no...it is a support at best...but scripture speaks of a biblical assurance;

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

We are to fully understand ; our calling....and our election.
Have you ever preached on this text PT?

.

I cannot say that because I know too many people who have at one time said they did not believe or understand these things come to embrace them.

Those who actively teach and preach against these truths are in greater danger. Saul railed against Christians and Christian truth, until God gave Him a new heart.

I personally and speaking only for myself do not think this is debatable at all.

As long as Jn 6, 10, and 17 remain in the bible there is no debate.

You're basically putting a label on every non-Calvinist on this board; saying that we might not even be of God's flock.[/QUOTE]

The only label might be...if the shoe fits wear it. Only God reads the heart...we read the posts however:wavey:

 

I like this, catchy :thumbsup: If you remember those old leave it to beaver episodes, beaver's humble and childlike insights always played out to be quite observant and true! I guess you would be Eddie then

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." -Jesus

"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

 

Or Lumpy!:smilewinkgrin: I wanna be June....loved the pearls! Now go wash up boys, its amnost time for dinner. Lol!

 

I never want you to think that I am intentionally avoiding a theological issue, Icon. I will discuss and debate as I can, and if I don't know something I try to be man enough to say I don't know and then I try to learn. (and thank you for not requiring a 142 page commentary...I don't have that kind of time at the moment)

So let's talk about the sheep, because I have done some study, limited though it may be, on this topic and I see two competing ideas, both of which seem to respectively encapsulate the Calvinist predestination position and the Free Will / Arminian position.

The question I want to start with is this: What does Jesus mean by saying "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me?" (John 10:27) Does He mean they are His sheep from eternity past (the Calvinist position) or does this scripture apply to all ages of Christianity as pertains to the teaching of the Word? After all, if we hold to a form of cessationism then we believe that God no longer speaks to us as He did during the days of the OT and the apostles, but now speaks to us through the scriptures, hence the philosophy of sola scriptura.

If we adopt the first position, then your argument has its basis. The sheep were set aside form eternity past (unconditionally elected). They hear His voice (irresistible grace), and they know Him. If we adopt the second position, then we are left with the overwhelming truth of scripture being evident to those who believe, thus we know if a teaching is true or not, and we figuratively "hear His voice." I wish was better at elucidating this point, because I feel like my explanation is not really catching every point that I wish to make.

Again, not an intentional avoidance. We are working in somewhat limited space here... :smilewinkgrin:

I'm glad to hear you say this, Icon. I've read things from some Cals (perhaps more along the spectrum toward hyper-Cals) saying that they couldn't even be 100% sure of their own election. That you can point toward scripture that you believe shows you assurance of salvation warms my heart.

I have preached from 1 Peter 2 before, though obviously our ideas of what is meant by "election" are tempered by our stances on the Calvinism theology. Since I don't hold to Calvinist election I cannot preach it the same way you would.

Like you, I believe we can find assurance of our salvation from the Lord. I believe the Lord shows us things that bring to mind our conversion. Some of these we can set up for ourselves, establishing waymarks pointing back to the path we should be walking for those times we backslide. Sometimes the Lord may call to our mind the time we were saved (the old-timers around here call that "going back to Bethel") or He'll show us other times of great spiritual happening in our lives (I often find myself revisiting the time I announced my calling to preach the Word and I find great strength in that moment).

Do you not see that you say it already, whether you intend it or not? You hold to TULIP being the truth, and I would not have you surrender your convictions. But you use this scripture from John 10 to say that those who do not hear the truth are not His sheep. It's not exactly a long logical leap for me to see your statement as saying that I (since I do not hold to TULIP) do not hold to truth, and therefore I cannot be one of His sheep. And then you tack on to that statement that I, and others like me, are in greater danger, because we do not preach what you view as the truth. None of this may be intended as a personal attack on anyone here at the BB, but it is a position you have now stated several times, and it's hard not to take it personally, as you are, intentionally or not, condemning a large portion of the board for not being supporters of TULIP.

Of course you don't. I don't think it is debatable that the Bible shows us at least some degree of synergism, but we still debate it. Each of us will hold tightly to the doctrines they believe the Bible supports. Thankfully we have a (for the most part) civil forum in which to discuss these ideas. If any one of us goes too far out of line we can basically self-regulate and regain the middle ground of civility and discussion.

Not gonna lie...I'm kinda confused by this one, Icon.

 

PT

In post 186...I asked 4 questions about the sheep in JN 10.... I f time permits could you offer your thoughts on those questions

those 4 questions plus your understanding of Jn 10:26

 

...................double post

 

Beaver seemed to exhibit the sin nature in being somewhat sneaky......Ward and June did not have a bible prominently displayed in the house. They while outwardly moral were part of a time where people lived a moral life....without the scriptures being primary.....as if to say you can be just as nice as Christians without being immersed in scripture in worship and service to God.
Wally had to get the Beaver to think about life in a different way. Here many Wallys are trying to help THE STEAVER see more clearly.
That ability comes from God but He uses other sheep to remove obstacles.

 

I'll give it a shot. As I said in my reply, I've studied this, though obviously my study is limited. I'll try my best to give you my take on the scripture. I actually think understanding the questions you asked reveals our understanding of John 10:26.

I tried to answer this through the framework of what does it mean to be a sheep, as that informs the answer of how they came to be. Obviously, the Cal position is that they were foreordained/elected to be His sheep, but that can potentially get into some murky waters concerning eternal salvation in the past. If they are His sheep as a result of predestination, then does that mean they were born as His sheep? Are they saved because they are His sheep? Or, as the Free Will position holds, do they become His sheep as a result of their salvation?

Yes, Jesus died for us. This issue is greatly informed by your position on the first question. As I asked, are we saved because we are His sheep, or are we His sheep because we are saved? If it is the first one, then you truly have Limited Atonement, as Christ only died for a select group. (I avoided the word "few" because I know that bothers you, Icon.) If it is the second group, then the ability to be one of His sheep is opened to all humanity. Regardless our belief, Christ did die for us.

If the Monergist position is true, then people obey because they have no other choice but to obey after God has regenerated and saved them. They are become a new creature. Just as the non-Elect have no choice but to continue in rejection, the Sheep have no choice but to obey. It is a severe lack of autonomy among humanity. If the Free Will position is true, (and I'm going to speak from my own experience) then the Sheep obey because they graciously rejoice and thank God for what He has done for them. That thankfulness is translated into obedience. Obviously this does not apply to all, but it applies to me (as best I can, seeing that I'm still in the flesh, and therefore still bound by the corruption of the curse.

You're asking me to make a call that is not mine to make. Assuming the first question to be true from the Cal perspective, then yes, they would, as they are elect. But Calvin himself even admits that there are some who appear as believers to us, but these are the one that God has illumined only for a brief time, so that He may forsake them for ungratefulness and strike them with greater blindness.

 

Naw, I think your more like Eddie :smilewinkgrin:

 

PreachTony

 

Pt

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