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Monument Contemplation

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So basically you would not allow any monuments to the dead if they are the "bad guys". I know of several statues that memorialize , "Our Confederate dead" and apparently you wouldn't allow even that. People make mistakes, even those who consider themselves very moral. You know, on both sides.

Why not address my view, rather than manufacture a strawman distortion to knock down? We can all be duped, and invest ourselves in a culture or view that misses the mark. But when our mistake comes to light, we need to recognize our error and change our thinking. How about Robert E. Lee led many of our Confederate soldiers to their needless death in defense of the abomination that was slavery. Sorta puts the man sitting on Traveler in his true light.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The only thing "obvious" to me is your lack of understanding of the full causation of the war.

Now why would the deniers want to change the subject from the needless monuments to my limited knowledge? As Christ died to make men holy, let us die to make men free... His truth is marching on.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Don't you think it was disingenuous to add "all" to my view that the Civil war was about slavery? :)
That was your argument against my post (I recognized slavery as well as a host of other issues....which you concluded were merely fabrications of my culture). So no, he is not being disingenuous at all.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC, please refer to the post where I misrepresented your view. It true I will correct it. I try to present the truth.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
JonC, please refer to the post where I misrepresented your view. It true I will correct it. I try to present the truth.
I am not accusing you of misrepresenting my view. I claimed that the war was over issues that included not only slavery but a host of other factors. You disagreed, which is perfectly fine as it gave us an argument.

You have my apology if it appeared I was suggesting you misrepresented my view as my intent was to challenge your argument, not your integrity.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lots of people engaged in the war effort on both sides, all with different reasons or a differing mix of reasons. My view is that Slavery was the primary cause, and I have spent many hours actually studying the issue.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I agree with @Van that people had many reasons for fighting the Civil War. Reading soldier's letters from the era it seems to me the primary reason individuals fought was a sense of allegiance to their state, home or communities. But beyond that, I believe the many issues that came to divide the North and South over four decades manifested itself in the issue of slavery.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Now why would the deniers want to change the subject from the needless monuments to my limited knowledge? As Christ died to make men holy, let us die to make men free... His truth is marching on.
You actually accuse others of changing the subject?
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lots of people engaged in the war effort on both sides, all with different reasons or a differing mix of reasons. My view is that Slavery was the primary cause, and I have spent many hours actually studying the issue.
Hours studying? Wow. Impressive.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You actually accuse others of changing the subject?
More insults and no discussion of the topic.
Hours studying? Wow. Impressive.
Whereas your approach seems to be to hide ignorance with insult. Not impressive or worthwhile.

Folks, returning to the topic, replacing the needless monuments of Confederates with monuments teaching the abomination of slavery took the lives of many Americans, North and South, black and white would be a good thing.
 

carpro

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let me see, it would be ok for me to change your "no" to "yes" and put it in quotes to present it as your statement?
But two wrongs do not make a right.

Do whatever you like, but above all else...

Stop whining.

Talk about being disingenuous, I haven't seen anybody here say the Civil War was not about slavery at all.

You got the response you deserved.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Once in boot camp, in our barracks, a commotion occurred and a group of solders grabbed a fellow boot and were dragging him to the back. I will never forget the thief's protest, "he left the wallet on his bunk so he deserved to have it stolen." Now, more than 50 years later, I hear another protest, Van deserved to have his view misrepresented. Go figure.

We can all be duped, and invest ourselves in a culture or view that misses the mark. But when our mistake comes to light, we need to recognize our error and change our thinking. How about Robert E. Lee led many of our Confederate soldiers to their needless death in defense of the abomination that was slavery. Perhaps puts the man sitting on Traveler in his true light
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
More insults and no discussion of the topic.

Whereas your approach seems to be to hide ignorance with insult. Not impressive or worthwhile.

Folks, returning to the topic, replacing the needless monuments of Confederates with monuments teaching the abomination of slavery took the lives of many Americans, North and South, black and white would be a good thing.
A fact for which I earlier asked you to provide: date of signing of Emancipation Proclamation?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi Reynolds, the war was not started with the Emancipation Proclamation, it was started when the slave states left the union after Lincoln's election because they thought that was the only way to preserve slavery.

Returning to topic, replacing the needless monuments of Confederates with monuments teaching the abomination of slavery took the lives of many Americans, North and South, black and white would be a good thing.

In my lifetime, smoking was viewed as an appropriate activity. It was not a sin. I carried a pack of cigarettes in my shirt pocket in church. People would light up right after leaving the service. But we changed. I have not smoked in more than 30 years, but my daughter, who grew up with a smoking dad, smokes to this day. My sinful imprint!

And not to put to fine a point on it, but slavery was just as sinful as smoking, andt its imprint still fostered by monuments, continues to harm us all.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi Reynolds, the war was not started with the Emancipation Proclamation, it was started when the slave states left the union after Lincoln's election because they thought that was the only way to preserve slavery.

Returning to topic, replacing the needless monuments of Confederates with monuments teaching the abomination of slavery took the lives of many Americans, North and South, black and white would be a good thing.

In my lifetime, smoking was viewed as an appropriate activity. It was not a sin. I carried a pack of cigarettes in my shirt pocket in church. People would light up right after leaving the service. But we changed. I have not smoked in more than 30 years, but my daughter, who grew up with a smoking dad, smokes to this day. My sinful imprint!

And not to put to fine a point on it, but slavery was just as sinful as smoking, andt its imprint still fostered by monuments, continues to harm us all.
You always seem to get facts wrong. You said "the slave states." Some of the slave states is factually accurate.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
And not to put to fine a point on it, but slavery was just as sinful as smoking, andt its imprint still fostered by monuments, continues to harm us all.
You rightly and strongly acknowledged that slavery was not the only issue of the Civil War.

Why do you believe that, since slavery was not the only issue of the Civil War, Confederate monuments are monuments to slavery? How does the imprint of slavery continue to harm us all, and how will removing these monuments remove this imprint?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi JonC, this thread is evidence of continuing harm today.
Slavery was the primary cause of the civil war.
Replacing the Confederate monuments with those showing the advocates of human rights would not eliminate the imprint of slavery, but it would be a step in that direction.

Here is short list of replacement monuments
George Lee
Lamar Smith
Willie Edwards Jr
William Lewis Moore
Medgar Evers
Addie Mae Collins, Denise McNair, Carole Robertson and Cynthia Wesley
James Earl Chaney
, Andrew Goodman and Michael Henry Schwerner
Viola Gregg Liuzzo,
Mark Twain
Harriet Beecher Stowe
 
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