No. That's logical if your objective is to win...and if it ain't, why play?
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Moral question
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
No. That's logical if your objective is to win...and if it ain't, why play?
Then answer the questions asked: is it wrong to fake a handoff in football?
Is that doing wrong, or playing a game logically to win?
Is it wrong to say "thank you" when you are not thankful?
Is it wrong to tell a 4-year-old the drawing he just did was "real good" when it's lousy?
Did God give the impression that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph?
Did the angels who visited Sodom give the impression they were humans?
Is that doing wrong, or playing a game logically to win?
Is it wrong to say "thank you" when you are not thankful?
Is it wrong to tell a 4-year-old the drawing he just did was "real good" when it's lousy?
Did God give the impression that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph?
Did the angels who visited Sodom give the impression they were humans?
That is a good question. Why play at all if the game includes being deceitful?
Does deceit actually fit the scope of fair play? Does deceit in any activity go beyond merely using skill, strategy, and strength.
Would one trust a con artist with anything?
Yet, because it is a “game” then it is supposedly approved to use deceit?
Perhaps that is why some consider life in such terms as: the game of life, or the roll of the dice, or the luck of the draw.
Playing any game logically should not include deceit.
Being polite and thinking of others is not deceit.
Complementing others efforts is not deceit.
Nope, God gave no one that impression.
The authorities in attempting to discredit the Lord used the family.
Angels often take on human form, and believers interact with them unaware it is an angel.
However, the interaction and the form is not deceit.
The angels do not go about using deceit to get a victory such as some do in games.
They do not use deceit in cunningly devised schemes to pervert the truth as some con artists do or those who just desire to acquire family favor for their own purpose more often do.
The angels cannot lie unless their leader is a liar and the father of all lies.
Can God lie?
Are believers allowed to lie?
Seems I recall a direct command about such in the Scriptures.
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That question was asked in regard to a basketball player deliberately fouling an opposing player to stop the clock near the end as the only way to win, though still unlikely. Where is the deceit? There is nothing hidden about the strategy here.
Was what the player did honest or deceitful?
Legal does not mean permission to be dishonest, nor does legal mean something meets God’s standard of expected conduct.
Would anyone trust a dishonest God?
It is if you don't mean what you say.
But all (arguably) of us are taught hypocrisy at an early age-- if your 5-year- old is invited to dinner at a friend's home, do you tell him to say it was a good meal even if he thinks it will make him puke right there?
As to games... Is it 'alright' to physically block or tackle somebody --just anybody anywhere? How about in football during play? It appears plain you are trying to say sports and games are all inherently evil. If it's not deception it's still covetousness, as in wanting to capture your opponent's queen or rook in chess. I wonder if you think churches are covetous when they want your money.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
I think there is a conflation here between "lying" and "deceiving". Maybe TC can weigh in on the Greek for us, but I'll be using English. To me, it is obvious that there was God-sanctioned deceit in the Bible. Some examples already mentioned were Rahab, and the Angels who appear as men. Whether one wants to admit it or not, angels appearing as men is a form of deceit. According to google searches, deceive means "to cause someone to believe something that is not true". When the angels appeared as men, they caused people to think they were men. This obviously was a purposeful attempt at deception.
So, now we get to the crux of the matter. If angels (and by extension, God) purposely deceived, we have to come to the conclusion that deception is not the same as lying. Rather, it is a valid strategy to accomplish goals. The angels' goal was to assess Sodom and Gomorra. To do so, they couldn't be seen as angels. So they practiced a deception, and appeared as men.
Another deception that was God-ordained (and even commanded) was Gideon and his 300 men. They used a strategy that made the Midionites believe that they were being attacked by roughly 300,000 men. It was a deception.
So, again, deception cannot be the same as lying, otherwise God would not be Holy.
A valid military tactic is to deceive your enemy by causing a distraction, then flanking them or attacking a lesser defended target. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with a deception of a fake hand-off.
In fact, to bring it down to an even simpler level, if deception is sin, then every basketball player who ever faked a pass or "pump faked" to get his opponent into the air was sinning. Every chess player who made it appear he was attacking from one angle only to attack from another angle was sinning. Every person who ever pretended to not know about a surprise birthday party was sinning.
One should be very careful in assigning something as sin any time. But especially if it's something that God Himself allows.
So, now we get to the crux of the matter. If angels (and by extension, God) purposely deceived, we have to come to the conclusion that deception is not the same as lying. Rather, it is a valid strategy to accomplish goals. The angels' goal was to assess Sodom and Gomorra. To do so, they couldn't be seen as angels. So they practiced a deception, and appeared as men.
Another deception that was God-ordained (and even commanded) was Gideon and his 300 men. They used a strategy that made the Midionites believe that they were being attacked by roughly 300,000 men. It was a deception.
So, again, deception cannot be the same as lying, otherwise God would not be Holy.
A valid military tactic is to deceive your enemy by causing a distraction, then flanking them or attacking a lesser defended target. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with a deception of a fake hand-off.
In fact, to bring it down to an even simpler level, if deception is sin, then every basketball player who ever faked a pass or "pump faked" to get his opponent into the air was sinning. Every chess player who made it appear he was attacking from one angle only to attack from another angle was sinning. Every person who ever pretended to not know about a surprise birthday party was sinning.
One should be very careful in assigning something as sin any time. But especially if it's something that God Himself allows.
I might as well mention camouflage as a military tactic.
Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
Trying to be holy in a depraved body with a reprobate mind can create a real moral dilemma--especially in an amoral society. Indeed the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. "whatsoever is not of Faith is sin".
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
Actually we taught our children to thank the person for inviting them.
Hypocrisy doesn’t have to be taught but usually is, thinking it reflects “good manners.”
The Scriptures state:
9Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Bedevoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;11not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, 13contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
Nope, not saying anything is “inherently evil.”
Paul used athletics as an illustration to Godly living and self control
24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
If I am deceitful in chess am I not disqualified?
If I purpose to be deceitful to gain some upper hand in some gain of trophy or honor, is the reward honestly acquired?
What happens in most sports when one is found deceitful? Are the players and at Time the team disqualified?
Integrity has no partnership with deceit.
Often these types of arguments are thrust as evidence for approval.
Just because some tactic achieves a desired goal does not make that tactic righteous.
Just as in the Scripture, righteousness is the ascended principle.
The standard is that one is to be Holy, just as God is Holy.
One would not expect God to do wrong in order to acquire a right outcome.
If playing a sport one is using that which is wrong, then the outcome is unrighteousness no matter the score.
The plans of military may be ungodly, but individuals are still held accountable (Nuremberg trials).
Deceit is a sin.
The use of deceit is a sin.
It is never right to do wrong.
It depends, is my team down or ahead?
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
I never said it did.
Exactly. And since God used deceit, it must not be wrong. That is my entire point. And there's no debate about whether God used deceit or not. None. The angels made humans think that they, too, were human. That's textbook deceit.
Moot point given the above.
Non-germane to the discussion.
So, you are saying that God sinned, when He used deceit? You cannot have it both ways. Either deceit is not a sin, or God sinned. Because, again, He used a textbook definition of deceit. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Literally the textbook definition.
Again, non-germane. This is about whether deceit is wrong. Not whether it's ok to do wrong to do right.
What ultimately you agree with is that deceit is not sin.
That you trust a god that will deceive.
That it is right to do wrong.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
Yes.
No.
What you are doing is being dishonest yourself, and trying to tell me what I believe, rather than tackling the evidence that I've presented to you. Care to do right, instead of doing wrong?
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21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
Now that alone should put to rest the idea the God will use deceit
It is never right to do wrong.
Now that alone should put to rest the idea the God will use deceit
It is never right to do wrong.
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
It obviously was not. Again, God used a literal textbook example of deceit. There is absolutely zero debatability on that. So, your statement is wrong. ALL deceit is not viewed as a lie. Otherwise God lied.
"In his mouth" means that He would have deceived by lying. Huge difference.
You keep saying this. Yet no one is arguing this point. This is called a strawman argument, and is a form of deceit. So, ready to own up that deceit doesn't necessarily equal lying?
You are conflating things again. In whose spirit there is no deceit is obviously speaking of a lying person. It's easy to comprehend if you read it.
So, let's look at the evidence one last time:
Fact: God used deceit when the angels pretended to be men. A textbook example that you have not even tried to debunk yet, because there is no way to.
Fact: God cannot sin.
Therefore: If God used deceit, and God cannot sin, it is possible to deceive without sinning.
Fact: God used deceit.
Fact: God cannot lie.
Therefore: It is possible to use deceit without lying.
So, here's my prediction. Instead of debating this, you're going to use a type of deceit (again) by using the strawman that I am trying to justify sin, and that I am claiming that it is right to do wrong to do right. When in fact, I am not even addressing that at all. I am discussing the Holiness of God, and attempting to explain to you that if God does something, it's obviously not wrong. A point which you haven't been able to debate so far.