More on Repentance

[SavedByGrace]

I recalled these words and chose to delete what I had wrote. Even though I have provided a vast amount of contextual scripture for my position and I have refuted your few sentences upon which you cling, I felt my words were not given with grace. Therefore, I removed them.

Ephesians 4:15-16,25-32
Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

You are free to speak as you wish and to mock me as you wish. I am free to say NM when I review and retract.

yeah, have a great day!

 

[HatedByAll]

Having Faith in Jesus requires us to NOT PLACE OUR FAITH in other things. We have to place all our faith in Jesus as Lord. Part of placing our Faith in Him is believing that he will give us a fulfilled life. If we believe we must trust in ANY THING ELSE to have a fulfilled life, we are NOT placing all our Faith in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

See the parable of the rich, young ruler. The recorders of the Gospels recorded this account for all of us. Jesus did not tell him to sell everything to do a work that would make him worthy of eternal life. He told him to sell everything because Jesus knew he was placing all his (the ruler's) faith in his riches, his youth (probably good looks etc.) and his position. Jesus was telling him to place all his Faith in Him (Jesus.) The sell everything command was telling him that to fully trust in Jesus, he had to also NOT TRUST IN HIS OWN ABILITIES AND POSSESSIONS.

That parable is for all of us. At one time in life we all have been tempted to believe we had to be rich, better looking, or have a better job to have a life worth living. That parable is telling us, we need to have Faith in Jesus to have eternal life that is worth living, both in Heaven and now on here on Earth. We too should not have faith in worldly things.

 

[Lodic]

yeah! in which case, are you "reformed" and if so, how does your view here agree with "by faith alone"? It is my understanding, if right, that "faith alone" means nothing else, not even repentance?

A couple of questions, if you don't mind. How would you interpret the "faith alone" passages that I referred to earlier? How do you see the role of repentance in the role of salvation? That is, I don't quite understand your view of how one is saved.

 

[SavedByGrace]

A couple of questions, if you don't mind. How would you interpret the "faith alone" passages that I referred to earlier? How do you see the role of repentance in the role of salvation? That is, I don't quite understand your view of how one is saved.

Sorry I don't remember the faith alone passed you quoted. Can you please tell me again

 

[Mikey]

Greetings! There are some on this board, who are "reformed", who insist that Justification is by faith alone, and does not require the sinner to repent for the forgiveness of their sins, for their salvation. These argue that repenting is something that the sinner has to "do", and therefore it is seen as a "work", and excluded from a requirement for salvation. You say that you believe that repentance is a requirement for salvation, I am sure that earlier you argued against this? Even so, you cannot believe in this, and then say that we accept, "by faith alone"! By faith alone means just that, only faith and nothing else, not even repentance! If I have got this wrong, please enlighten me

"When the gospel is proclaimed, it seems at first sight that two different, even alternative, responses are called for. Sometimes the summons is, ‘Repent!’ Thus, #John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”‘ (Matt. 3:1-2). Again, Peter urged the hearers whose consciences had been ripped open on the day of Pentecost, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ’ (Acts 2:38). Later, Paul urged the Athenians to ‘repent’ in response to the message of the risen Christ (Acts 17:30).

Yet, on other occasions, the appropriate response to the gospel is, ‘Believe!’ When the Philippian jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved, the Apostle told him, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’ (Acts 16:31).

But there is no mystery or contradiction here. Further on in Acts 17, we discover that precisely where the response of repentance was required, those who were converted are described as believing (Acts 17:30, 34).

Any confusion is surely resolved by the fact that when Jesus preached ‘the gospel of God’ in Galilee, he urged his hearers, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel’ (Mark 1:14-15). Here repentance and faith belong together. They denote two aspects in conversion that are equally essential to it. Thus, either term implies the presence of the other because each reality (repentance or faith) is the sine qua non of the other.

In grammatical terms, then the words repent and believe both function as a synecdoche — the figure of speech in which a part is used for the hole. Thus, repentance implies faith and faith implies repentance. One cannot exist without the other."

- Sinclair Ferguson

 

[SavedByGrace]

"When the gospel is proclaimed, it seems at first sight that two different, even alternative, responses are called for. Sometimes the summons is, ‘Repent!’ Thus, #John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”‘ (Matt. 3:1-2). Again, Peter urged the hearers whose consciences had been ripped open on the day of Pentecost, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ’ (Acts 2:38). Later, Paul urged the Athenians to ‘repent’ in response to the message of the risen Christ (Acts 17:30).

Yet, on other occasions, the appropriate response to the gospel is, ‘Believe!’ When the Philippian jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved, the Apostle told him, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’ (Acts 16:31).

But there is no mystery or contradiction here. Further on in Acts 17, we discover that precisely where the response of repentance was required, those who were converted are described as believing (Acts 17:30, 34).

Any confusion is surely resolved by the fact that when Jesus preached ‘the gospel of God’ in Galilee, he urged his hearers, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel’ (Mark 1:14-15). Here repentance and faith belong together. They denote two aspects in conversion that are equally essential to it. Thus, either term implies the presence of the other because each reality (repentance or faith) is the sine qua non of the other.

In grammatical terms, then the words repent and believe both function as a synecdoche — the figure of speech in which a part is used for the hole. Thus, repentance implies faith and faith implies repentance. One cannot exist without the other."

- Sinclair Ferguson

Ferguson is quite wrong here, as repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, that are both required for a sinner to be truly saved. repentance is not the same as faith. SF is speaking as a Reformed theologian, so his angle is thus!

 

[Mikey]

Ferguson is quite wrong here, as repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, that are both required for a sinner to be truly saved. repentance is not the same as faith. SF is speaking as a Reformed theologian, so his angle is thus!

But it is clear that Reformed do believe in repentance, and your understanding of what faith alone means is wrong.

There are some on this board, who are "reformed", who insist that Justification is by faith alone, and does not require the sinner to repent for the forgiveness of their sins, for their salvation. These argue that repenting is something that the sinner has to "do", and therefore it is seen as a "work", and excluded from a requirement for salvation. You say that you believe that repentance is a requirement for salvation, I am sure that earlier you argued against this? Even so, you cannot believe in this, and then say that we accept, "by faith alone"! By faith alone means just that, only faith and nothing else, not even repentance! If I have got this wrong, please enlighten me

 

[Mikey]

Ferguson is quite wrong here, as repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, that are both required for a sinner to be truly saved. repentance is not the same as faith. SF is speaking as a Reformed theologian, so his angle is thus!

You say he's wrong but did not explain how. Can you explain the difference between repentance and faith? Can someone have faith and not repent, or repent but not have faith?

 

[SavedByGrace]

You say he's wrong but did not explain how. Can you explain the difference between repentance and faith? Can someone have faith and not repent, or repent but not have faith?

They are NOT the same thing!

 

[Lodic]

Sorry I don't remember the faith alone passed you quoted. Can you please tell me again

Certainly. I believe I referenced Romans 3:19-28, Romans chapter 4, Romans 10:9-13, Galatians 2:11-21, Galatians 3:6-4:11, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5-7. I was making the point that each of these passages speaks of salvation by faith vs works or the Law. I'm sure you don't believe in a "works" salvation, since you know the Bible well. It's clear that we must repent when we are saved.

@Mikey made a good point - Is it possible to have faith and not repentance?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Certainly. I believe I referenced Romans 3:19-28, Romans chapter 4, Romans 10:9-13, Galatians 2:11-21, Galatians 3:6-4:11, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5-7. I was making the point that each of these passages speaks of salvation by faith vs works or the Law. I'm sure you don't believe in a "works" salvation, since you know the Bible well. It's clear that we must repent when we are saved. I'm not sure if we are saying the same thing in different ways, or if there is a misunderstanding.

I am 100% against the heresy of a "works salvation". Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11:6

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

I believe in what Jesus says at the start of Mark, "and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (1:15)

Which I understand to be at the same time. As a sinner would not want to repent of anything, if they did not believe in Jesus as their personal Saviour. It is when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins (John 16:5-11) , that they turn to the Lord in repentance (godly sorrow), for their salvation.

 

[Lodic]

I am 100% against the heresy of a "works salvation". Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11:6

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

I believe in what Jesus says at the start of Mark, "and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (1:15)

Which I understand to be at the same time. As a sinner would not want to repent of anything, if they did not believe in Jesus as their personal Saviour. It is when they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins (John 16:5-11) , that they turn to the Lord in repentance (godly sorrow), for their salvation.

It seems that we may be saying the same thing after all, just coming from different angles. That is the way I understand it, Brother.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It seems that we may be saying the same thing after all, just coming from different angles. That is the way I understand it, Brother.

I must ask you to clarify your belief in repentance and faith as requirements for a sinner to be saved, on which we agree. And, your holding to "Sola Fide". This is defined as:

"4. Faith alone. The Reformers never tired of saying that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. When put into theological shorthand the doctrine was expressed as justification by faith alone, the article by which the church stands or falls, according to Martin Luther. The Reformers called justification by faith Christianity's material principle, because it involves the very matter or substance of what a person must understand and believe to be saved. Justification is a declaration of God based on the work of Christ. It flows from God's grace and it comes to the individual not by anything he or she might do but by "faith alone" (sola fide). We may state the full doctrine as: Justification is the act of God by which he declares sinners to be righteous because of Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.", The Five Solas of the Reformation | Monergism

It seems clear to me, that according to this statement, all that a sinners need for their salvation, is "faith", and nothing else. It is interesting, that after Peter preached his first sermon on the Day of Pentecost, that those who heard him, said, "Brethren, what shall we DO?" (Acts 2:37). Where "ποιέω", is used of "something to preform, carry out". Peter did not tell them, "you have to DO nothing", but simply "believe". Instead, Peter tells them what they must "ποιέω", "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit.". Now, although there is no mention here of "faith", it is evident, that those who would have responded to Peter, would have done so because they "believed" in what he told them. That if they repented of their sins, and got themselves baptised in water, they would get saved, and receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Not that water baptism saved them in any way, as this would have come about from their repenting of their sins. Further, as I have said many times, "faith alone" does not take into account the words of Jesus Christ, where He very clearly says, "and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15). And, in His Great Commission in Luke's Gospel, Jesus says again, "and that repentance for the remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (24:47). For a sinner to "repent" of their sins, they would also have to "believe" that the Saviour, and that their sins would be forgiven for His sake.

What think ye?

 

[Lodic]

I must ask you to clarify your belief in repentance and faith as requirements for a sinner to be saved, on which we agree. And, your holding to "Sola Fide". This is defined as:

"4. Faith alone. The Reformers never tired of saying that justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. When put into theological shorthand the doctrine was expressed as justification by faith alone, the article by which the church stands or falls, according to Martin Luther. The Reformers called justification by faith Christianity's material principle, because it involves the very matter or substance of what a person must understand and believe to be saved. Justification is a declaration of God based on the work of Christ. It flows from God's grace and it comes to the individual not by anything he or she might do but by "faith alone" (sola fide). We may state the full doctrine as: Justification is the act of God by which he declares sinners to be righteous because of Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone.", The Five Solas of the Reformation | Monergism

It seems clear to me, that according to this statement, all that a sinners need for their salvation, is "faith", and nothing else. It is interesting, that after Peter preached his first sermon on the Day of Pentecost, that those who heard him, said, "Brethren, what shall we DO?" (Acts 2:37). Where "ποιέω", is used of "something to preform, carry out". Peter did not tell them, "you have to DO nothing", but simply "believe". Instead, Peter tells them what they must "ποιέω", "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit.". Now, although there is no mention here of "faith", it is evident, that those who would have responded to Peter, would have done so because they "believed" in what he told them. That if they repented of their sins, and got themselves baptised in water, they would get saved, and receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Not that water baptism saved them in any way, as this would have come about from their repenting of their sins. Further, as I have said many times, "faith alone" does not take into account the words of Jesus Christ, where He very clearly says, "and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15). And, in His Great Commission in Luke's Gospel, Jesus says again, "and that repentance for the remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (24:47). For a sinner to "repent" of their sins, they would also have to "believe" that the Saviour, and that their sins would be forgiven for His sake.

What think ye?

@Mikey gave a great quote by Sinclair Ferguson (# 25).

"When the gospel is proclaimed, it seems at first sight that two different, even alternative, responses are called for. Sometimes the summons is, ‘Repent!’ Thus, #John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”‘ (Matt. 3:1-2). Again, Peter urged the hearers whose consciences had been ripped open on the day of Pentecost, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ’ (Acts 2:38). Later, Paul urged the Athenians to ‘repent’ in response to the message of the risen Christ (Acts 17:30).

Yet, on other occasions, the appropriate response to the gospel is, ‘Believe!’ When the Philippian jailer asked Paul what he must do to be saved, the Apostle told him, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved’ (Acts 16:31).

But there is no mystery or contradiction here. Further on in Acts 17, we discover that precisely where the response of repentance was required, those who were converted are described as believing (Acts 17:30, 34).

Any confusion is surely resolved by the fact that when Jesus preached ‘the gospel of God’ in Galilee, he urged his hearers, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel’ (Mark 1:14-15). Here repentance and faith belong together. They denote two aspects in conversion that are equally essential to it. Thus, either term implies the presence of the other because each reality (repentance or faith) is the sine qua non of the other.

As Ferguson explained, this is not contradictory. I hold to the view that we are saved by faith alone. The Reformers said that we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. It's clear that we are saved by grace alone and we must repent when we are saved.

In # 26, even you said

repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, that are both required for a sinner to be truly saved. repentance is not the same as faith

I agree that repentance and faith are not the same thing. To repeat Mikey's question, is it possible to have faith and not repent? Of course, the answer is "no". This is largely a matter of semantics. We essentially believe the same things regarding faith and repentance, but you don't like the phrase "faith alone". It doesn't change anything, as it amounts to the same thing.

 

[SavedByGrace]

@Mikey gave a great quote by Sinclair Ferguson (# 25).


As Ferguson explained, this is not contradictory. I hold to the view that we are saved by faith alone. The Reformers said that we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. It's clear that we are saved by grace alone and we must repent when we are saved.

In # 26, even you said I agree that repentance and faith are not the same thing. To repeat Mikey's question, is it possible to have faith and not repent? Of course, the answer is "no". This is largely a matter of semantics. We essentially believe the same things regarding faith and repentance, but you don't like the phrase "faith alone". It doesn't change anything, as it amounts to the same thing.

there are those among the so called "reformed", who maintain that "faith alone" is just that, and it excludes any "repentance", which they see as a "work". Interesting that "faith alone" is not used in the Bible, except in James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.", where it is the negative.

 

[AustinC]

there are those among the so called "reformed", who maintain that "faith alone" is just that, and it excludes any "repentance", which they see as a "work". Interesting that "faith alone" is not used in the Bible, except in James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.", where it is the negative.

The dead in sins will not repent while they are dead. They will repent when God makes them alive.

Somehow you cannot accept this truth. You demand that dead people repent BEFORE they are made alive.

You imagine that those who were dead in trespasses and sins, during the time Jesus walked on earth, had the capacity to repent. When Jesus spoke to all, only those who the Father had given him and made alive ever responded in repentance. Those who were not made alive never responded in repentance. They had no capacity to respond. Why? Because they were spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins.

Can you acknowledge that God must make us alive first or is that passage meaningless to you?

You demand that dead people MUST repent BEFORE God can react in making them alive.

 

[Lodic]

there are those among the so called "reformed", who maintain that "faith alone" is just that, and it excludes any "repentance", which they see as a "work". Interesting that "faith alone" is not used in the Bible, except in James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.", where it is the negative.

The main point of "faith alone" is that we are saved by faith alone without any works or following the Law. This doesn't remove the need for repentance.

 

[SavedByGrace]

They will repent when God makes them alive.

The Bible calls it CONVICTION, and NOT "making alive"!

5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. (John 16)

ἐλέγχω, "to find fault with, accuse, convict, expose". Which is what the Holy Spirit did when He Came as "The Advocate". This is for the whole world!

 

[AustinC]

The Bible calls it CONVICTION, and NOT "making alive"!

5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. (John 16)

ἐλέγχω, "to find fault with, accuse, convict, expose". Which is what the Holy Spirit did when He Came as "The Advocate". This is for the whole world!

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This passage is simply telling us that sinners are "made alive" in the Lord, when they "call upon the Name of the Lord" for their salvation! It does not have the "reformed slant", which says that the Spirit first "enables" the sinner, or "regenerates" them, and then they are "able" to call on the Lord. This is "theology" and not "Bible"!