Music in worship

[Thinkingstuff]

I didn't say the OT wasn't profitable, I said we shouldn't use it to determine NT worship procedure, as in how we worship God in the church. For instance, had you read my post you would have seen me use the examples of not having priests, not sacrificing, not observing feasts and the like, etc. Those things were outlines in the OT for OT service. The NT outlines how to worship in the NT service.

It is important that we study OT service since it is in the bible and most of it pictures Christ, but not to figure out how to worship in the church.

Why not the apostles used it? They didn't start everything from Scratch most of the first places they preached were in Synigogues.

 

[rdwhite]

I supposed when the trumpets blow and the church is called home, the CoC should stay behind, because they disagree with trumpets.

 

[annsni]

I have yet to see where musical instruments were used in actual Temple worship...nor do I see musical instruments used even in worship services in the NT. I also, don't see musical instruments being used in the development of the Liturgical Early Church services.

I do read of musical instruments being used to praise God, like when the foundation of the Temple was laid, after a victory or maybe as a celebration of a feast, marriage...ect, but not during an actual Temple worship service.

I'm talking about INSIDE the Temple...not outside the Temple...am I overlooking this in the Old and New Testaments and how about the liturgical life of the early church. Anybody have any references?

In XC
-

No longer is there an "inside the temple" - a place where the common man cannot go.

However, what DID go on inside the temple was not something we need to do anymore. It was not "worship" inside the temple but sacrifice. I believe the worship in the OT happened OUTSIDE the temple inside.

 

[JSM17]

rbell wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSM17
What does the N.T. say about Mechanical instruments in the worship?


Absolutely nothing.

But the Church of Christ denomination does...and thus begins a debate on probably their most goofy point of doctrine.

So according to you silence gives us authority to do that in which the N.T. is silent on? Is it really that goofy to debate issues that people are adding to the word where it is silent? Its easier to make a wise crack then to deal with the issue.

Darron Steele wrote:

Yep!

I am already laughing!

How many threads full of the most ridiculous assertions and `reasonings' have we seen on this subject?

I thought JSM17 was going to stay away from this subject.

I'm laughing too, on the bottom of your post you have a quote from 1 Cor 4:6
so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written,
NASU
Show me where you have authority for mechanical instrument and women pastor, since you will avoid that post like the plague.

Johny wrote:

The NT doesn't give a rip about mechanical instruments. Whatever instruments you use in church, if use them for the glory of God, you're fine. Doesn't matter if it's a Les Paul guitar, or a tissue paper/comb.

What passage did you get that from?

saltcitybaptist wrote:

JSM, I challenge you to answer my questions of my post # 2 on the link indicated above.

Sorry there was no link posted so I could not go to it, but I will go back to it if you give me the link.

tcgreek wrote:

JSM17 is a typical, traditional church of Christ member. What else do you expect from him?

Believe me, he's got a lot more of those nonsensical questions.

My prayer is that his eyes be opened to what God is doing in the world through the various denominations;

and,

that he would stop this relentless effort to to convert everyone to his church of Christ traditions.

There nothing nonsensical about the questions. I m here for discussion and to proclaim truth, whether or not people see is between them and God.

RAdam wrote:

It amuses me when people go to the old testament to find support for musical instruments in church service. Since when do we get our procedure for new testament worship service from the old testament? Let's see, we don't do things the way they did them - we don't have priests, we don't sacrifice animals and crops, we don't have feast days and the like, etc. We are correct on all these points. Yet, we will happily go there to defend musical instruments. Doesn't that seem a bit inconsistent to you? Jesus said you don't put new wine in old bottles or a new patch on an old garment. Paul clearly states you don't mix the new with the old, the gospel with the law. Might I suggest that whatever we do in the NT service we use the NT to glean, support, and defend it and not the OT.

AMEN

Tom Bryant wrote:

so since the NT doesn't say anything about musical instruments, we don't use them?

If we start doing whatever we want because the bible does not speak of it, before youknow it we will be doing all kinds of crazy thing and calling it worship, oh too late. I suppose if God wanted them He would have told us.

Thinkingstuff wrote:

Why not the apostles used it? They didn't start everything from Scratch most of the first places they preached were in Synigogues.

The Apostles did not use mechanical instrument, where did you get that from. As for them preaching in the synagogues, what does that have to do with the N.T. example of worshipping without meachanical instruments? Do you think that they were worshipping as the N.T. church? I wonder how trying to observe the Lord's supper in the sysnagogues went over with those in the synagogues? Sabboth was on Sat. the Apostles and Christins met on the first day of the week, and there were not mechanical instruments.

rdwhite wrote:

I supposed when the trumpets blow and the church is called home, the CoC should stay behind, because they disagree with trumpets.

Instead of poking fun and derailing the thread maybe you can take a real stab at the questions, it easier to goof about it then it is to answer the questions.

 

[DHK]

rbell wrote:
So according to you silence gives us authority to do that in which the N.T. is silent on? Is it really that goofy to debate issues that people are adding to the word where it is silent? Its easier to make a wise crack then to deal with the issue.

Silence does not mean it is wrong. Missionaries either use slide presentations or power point presentations to present their mission field to other churches. What authority does the NT give them to use their slide projector/computer in the church to do so? Silence does not mean it is wrong. The NT did not use electricity either. Do you?

Church buildings were unknown for at least 250 years after the death of Christ. What authority do you have? You better think some of these issues through.

I'm laughing too, on the bottom of your post you have a quote from 1 Cor 4:6
so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written,
NASU
Show me where you have authority for mechanical instrument and women pastor, since you will avoid that post like the plague.

I doubt if Darren will avoid posting about women pastors. Either way that is a red herring to this topic.
Show where there is no authority for mechanical instruments not to be used in church services. Look to the future. The Lord has ordained that harps will be used in the worship of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That leaves you out. The rapture takes place first. There will be harps in heaven. Then we will come back to this earth to reign with Christ for a thousand years. If there were already harps in heaven, will Christ dispense with them on earth? I think not!

Johny wrote:
What passage did you get that from?

He probably got it from here:

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

The more modern translation says: Whether therefore you play a harp, blow a trumpet, use a violin or a flute, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God.

tcgreek wrote:

There nothing nonsensical about the questions. I m here for discussion and to proclaim truth, whether or not people see is between them and God.

It is nonsensical because you discuss opinion of the COC and not Scripture. Put forth Scriptural argument; make sense, and then it won't be "nonsensical."

Tom Bryant wrote:

If we start doing whatever we want because the bible does not speak of it, before youknow it we will be doing all kinds of crazy thing and calling it worship, oh too late. I suppose if God wanted them He would have told us.

You twisted Tom's words didn't you. Tom wasn't speaking about things outside of the area of worship. Where does the Bible speak of duets, trios, quartets--even without instruments? Are these wrong too, because they sure aren't mentioned in the Bible. There is silence on "specials," or special music. Does the Bible speak about taking up an offering every Sunday? Does it matter whether you bring your tithe and put it in a plate (box or whatever), as they did in Malachi, or where does one get the authority for ushers to pass a plate throughout the congregation? Did they sit in pews or in chairs in the NT? The Jewish custom was that the people stood while the Rabbi sat. But what did they do in the early churches? Do you have evidence?

Thinkingstuff wrote:

The Apostles did not use mechanical instrument, where did you get that from.

Maybe they did. Do you have absolute proof that they didn't. Your entire argument rests on silence--the same thing that you are rebuking others for.

As for them preaching in the synagogues, what does that have to do with the N.T. example of worshipping without meachanical instruments? Do you think that they were worshipping as the N.T. church?

Were they worshiping as a NT church on the Day of Pentecost when they were in the Temple? The Bible says that they were a church. The Lord added to the church (in Jerusalem) daily. It was in the Temple.
Everywhere Paul met, he first met in the synagogue, until he got kicked out. If he established a church there it was a NT church. The church is not the building it is the people.

I wonder how trying to observe the Lord's supper in the sysnagogues went over with those in the synagogues?

If they had the use of the synagogues why not. They used them until they were kicked out of them.

Sabboth was on Sat. the Apostles and Christins met on the first day of the week, and there were not mechanical instruments.

You make a dogmatic opinionated statement without proof. They didn't have computers either. But can you prove that dinasaurs didn't exist?

rdwhite wrote:

Instead of poking fun and derailing the thread maybe you can take a real stab at the questions, it easier to goof about it then it is to answer the questions.

He is making a valid point, a little facetiously, but still valid.
The trumpet of God will sound and when the trumpet will sound those that are in Christ will be resurrected. If you don't believe in musical instruments, what will happen to you? Will your unbelief make the trumpet of God of no effect?

 

[Darron Steele]

...

I'm laughing too, on the bottom of your post you have a quote from 1 Cor 4:6
so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written,
NASU
Show me where you have authority for mechanical instrument and

JSM17: I do not need to justify musical instruments.

Scripture mentions use of them in worship throughout Scripture, from the oldest books of the Old Testament to Revelation. His approval of using musical instruments in worship is shown. Never once does it indicate disapproval of the practice.

It is contingent upon you to justify the ban on them.

women pastor, since you will avoid that post like the plague.

I am not avoiding the post for the reasons you are insinuating.

I am not "avoiding" it because I cannot `defend' it. I would have no need, as my congregation's minister is a male. Also, if there was something to be gained in trying to clarify Scripture's teachings on women in the church, I could do so.

However, `you know all things.' There is nothing any of us `denominationalists' would tell you that you would not be resolved to argue against. There is no chance I would change your mind, because you are here to "proclaim the truth" to us, and in your mind, we `denominationalists' have nothing to offer you. If I was to try to get you change your view on anything, it would be an exercise in futility.

I just do not want to be bothered by a pointless argument. That is what I told you before, and I was telling the truth when I told you that. Unlike what you are probably taught in the Churches of Christ, I was mentored in church groups where lying is never okay -- including in religious debate. When I told you that I did not want to take the time for a pointless argument, that was the truth.

This board is not here for you to impugn the character of us `denominationalists' to indulge your contempt for us. In regards to that contempt for `denominationalists' you are probably encouraged to have, keep it in the walls of your building.

 

[Zenas]

It amuses me when people go to the old testament to find support for musical instruments in church service. Since when do we get our procedure for new testament worship service from the old testament? Let's see, we don't do things the way they did them - we don't have priests, we don't sacrifice animals and crops, we don't have feast days and the like, etc. We are correct on all these points. Yet, we will happily go there to defend musical instruments. Doesn't that seem a bit inconsistent to you? Jesus said you don't put new wine in old bottles or a new patch on an old garment. Paul clearly states you don't mix the new with the old, the gospel with the law. Might I suggest that whatever we do in the NT service we use the NT to glean, support, and defend it and not the OT.

Yes, I agree completely. That's why I recommend that you consider Revelation 5:8:

When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

I take the position that if musical instruments are a part of worship in Heaven, then they should be acceptable to our rather pedestrian forms of worship here on earth. However, I will say that I used this once in a conversation with a CoC member, and she said to me, "Yes but that is Heaven and we shouldn't try to imitate them." :BangHead:

 

[Zenas]

However, what DID go on inside the temple was not something we need to do anymore. It was not "worship" inside the temple but sacrifice. I believe the worship in the OT happened OUTSIDE the temple inside.

And how, pray tell, do you draw the distinction between worship and sacrifice? To the ancient Jews, sacrifices were the highest form or worship. Too many people today want to limit worship to singing praise songs with their hands in the air but that is only one expression of worship.

 

[JSM17]

A. THE ONLY MUSIC COMMANDED IN THE NT WAS "VOCAL"...
1. The example of Jesus and His disciples - Mt 26:30; Mk 14:26
(they "sung a hymn")
2. The example of Paul and Silas - Ac 16:25 ("singing hymns")
3. Other references
a. Ro 15:9 - "sing to Your name"
b. 1 Co 14:15 - "I will sing with the spirit, and I will also
sing with the understanding"
c. Ep 5:19 - "singing and making melody in your heart"
d. Co 3:16 - "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord"
e. He 2:12 - "I will sing praise to You"
f. Ja 5:13 - "Let him sing psalms"

BAPTIST - "I would as soon attempt to pray to God with
machinery as to sing to Him with machinery." - CHARLES H.
SPURGEON

 

[rdwhite]

Let me see, following JSM17's logic, since heated baptismal tanks are not mentioned in the New Testament, then heated baptismal tanks should not be allowed in our worship services. While we are at it, let's through out some other items not mentioned in the New Testament.

Reading glasses, oh my, nobody should be allowed to wear reading glasses in worship service.

Hearing aides, yep leave them at the door, nobody should be allowed to wear hearing aides in worship service.

Depends, absolutely not, nobody should be allowed to wear depends in worship service.

Toupees, all toupees must be left at the door.

Wheelchairs, wheelchairs are not mentioned, so they must be unacceptable.

Pews, I have never found any pews in any Bible, toss them out.

Pulpits, pulpits must be evil and of the devil because they are not in the NT.

I imagine, that on any given Sunday, at most CoC worship services, I could walk in and find a pulpit, a pew, a toupee, a depend, a hearing aide, and a pair of reading glasses. I submit that all of these items (except maybe the toupee) are a help to the people using them as they worship God. Musical instruments are a help to me as I worship God.

 

[Johnv]

I think it's a rather sad commentary that we have multiple pages debating nonessential topics like the scriptural importance of music styles, but when a person posts a prayer request, they're lucky if it goes past a single page.

 

[DHK]

I think it's a rather sad commentary that we have multiple pages debating nonessential topics like the scriptural importance of music styles, but when a person posts a prayer request, they're lucky if it goes past a single page.

We haven't even started debating music styles John. We're still debating the validity of music itself! :BangHead:

 

[JSM17]

Let me see, following JSM17's logic, since heated baptismal tanks are not mentioned in the New Testament, then heated baptismal tanks should not be allowed in our worship services. While we are at it, let's through out some other items not mentioned in the New Testament.

Reading glasses, oh my, nobody should be allowed to wear reading glasses in worship service.

Hearing aides, yep leave them at the door, nobody should be allowed to wear hearing aides in worship service.

Depends, absolutely not, nobody should be allowed to wear depends in worship service.

Toupees, all toupees must be left at the door.

Wheelchairs, wheelchairs are not mentioned, so they must be unacceptable.

Pews, I have never found any pews in any Bible, toss them out.

Pulpits, pulpits must be evil and of the devil because they are not in the NT.

I imagine, that on any given Sunday, at most CoC worship services, I could walk in and find a pulpit, a pew, a toupee, a depend, a hearing aide, and a pair of reading glasses. I submit that all of these items (except maybe the toupee) are a help to the people using them as they worship God. Musical instruments are a help to me as I worship God.

You people crack me up, comparing guitars and pianos with the things that you have shown above have nothing to do with one another. The N.T. says sing, so thats obviously what God wants from His people. I guess you can add whatever you like to the Lord's supper as well since the bible does not exclude cookies and other items.

The command is to sing, why is that so hard?

 

[DHK]

You people crack me up, comparing guitars and pianos with the things that you have shown above have nothing to do with one another. The N.T. says sing, so thats obviously what God wants from His people. I guess you can add whatever you like to the Lord's supper as well since the bible does not exclude cookies and other items.

The command is to sing, why is that so hard?

Does it say to sing congregationally or in trios and quartets? How does it say to sing? In professional choirs? Solomon had choirs, but we must not go outside of the mandates of the NT, lest we admit the usage of the OT instruments.

 

[rdwhite]

I think it's a rather sad commentary that we have multiple pages debating nonessential topics ... but when a person posts a prayer request, they're lucky if it goes past a single page.

I understand what you are saying; however, prayer requests do not require debate or discussion. You read it and you pray. It is not necessary that 200 people post a reply saying "OK, I'm praying for you". If their is an update or clarification, then it will extend the posts, but I would think it unusual for a prayer request to go on for 2 or more pages.

 

[Darron Steele]

...The N.T. says sing, so thats obviously what God wants from His people.
...
The command is to sing, why is that so hard?

We do sing.

It would be idiotic to claim that if a musical instrument is being played while we sing, we are no longer singing.

You are not going to be so idiotic, are you? You are smarter than that, right?

Further, I do not see how this would justify a ban on what God shows approval of throughout His written Word.

 

[JSM17]

We sing because God wants spiritual songs, speaking to one another and making melody in our hearts to the Lord (Eph. 5:19). We sing because God wants spiritual songs, teaching and admonishing one another, with grace in our hearts to the Lord (Col. 3:16). We sing because God wants spiritual sacrifices of praise offered by the fruit of the lips (1 Peter 2:5; Heb. 13:15).

It would be idiotic to claim that if a musical instrument is being played while we sing, we are no longer singing.

What is idiotic is claiming that the bible says sing and somehow that implies that we can add with the singing anything we want.

 

[DHK]

We sing because God wants spiritual songs, speaking to one another and making melody in our hearts to the Lord (Eph. 5:19). We sing because God wants spiritual songs, teaching and admonishing one another, with grace in our hearts to the Lord (Col. 3:16). We sing because God wants spiritual sacrifices of praise offered by the fruit of the lips (1 Peter 2:5; Heb. 13:15).

What is idiotic is claiming that the bible says sing and somehow that implies that we can add with the singing anything we want.

You fail to address all the other "extras" that the COC adds in that are not in the NT, not mandated by the NT. I have mentioned some of these already, but you avoid them. In this you are hypocritical. You pick and choose your issues. You are unable to be consistent.

 

[Darron Steele]

...The N.T. says sing, so thats obviously what God wants from His people.
...
The command is to sing, why is that so hard?

We do sing.

It would be idiotic to claim that if a musical instrument is being played while we sing, we are no longer singing.

You are not going to be so idiotic, are you? You are smarter than that, right?

Further, I do not see how this would justify a ban on what God shows approval of throughout His written Word.

...

What is idiotic is claiming that the bible says sing and somehow that implies that we can add with the singing anything we want.

You did not answer my questions:

"It would be idiotic to claim that if a musical instrument is being played while we sing, we are no longer singing.

You are not going to be so idiotic, are you? You are smarter than that, right?"​

I would appreciate an answer. Is it really your view that if musical instruments are being played while we sing, we are not singing?

 

[JSM17]

You fail to address all the other "extras" that the COC adds in that are not in the NT, not mandated by the NT. I have mentioned some of these already, but you avoid them. In this you are hypocritical. You pick and choose your issues. You are unable to be consistent

.

Does it say to sing congregationally or in trios and quartets? How does it say to sing? In professional choirs? Solomon had choirs, but we must not go outside of the mandates of the NT, lest we admit the usage of the OT instruments.

Its obvious that the scriptures that I have shown dictates that we (Christians) are to sing to one another admonishing one another. This would mean that the congregation of people would be doing this, there is no indication of choirs or trios or such. It says we are to sing to one another, period. So if it does not say how many at any given time, we must go with what is does say, and it says that we are to sing to one another, it implies all are to sing if no specific number is given, who are we to determine that only two or three will sing to all the rest.
As for Solomon, it is not his church, its the Lord's church and He gave all truth to His Apostles and prophets and they said to sing, with no mention of mechanical instruments in the N.T.