Music in worship

[DHK]

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Its obvious that the scriptures that I have shown dictates that we (Christians) are to sing to one another admonishing one another. This would mean that the congregation of people would be doing this,

Chapter and verse please!
It simply says:
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

--Teaching and admonishing one another is better done on a one to one basis whether it be by preaching or by singing. The teaching and admonishing is the important part. Teaching is always done more effectively on a one to one basis. David used a harp and calmed the heart of Saul, even chasing the demonic spirit away. There was no choir there; just David and Saul.

there is no indication of choirs or trios or such.

There is no indication of a congregation singing either.

It says we are to sing to one another, period. So if it does not say how many at any given time, we must go with what is does say, and it says that we are to sing to one another, it implies all are to sing if no specific number is given, who are we to determine that only two or three will sing to all the rest.

If the NT says anything at all about singing it says that it should be done orderly and one by one, and does not mention congregationally.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
--Psalms were sung.

The emphasis was on order. They were not to do things together but one by one, and in order.
Here is the principle, which is applicable to singing as well:
1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

There are no directives concerning congregational singing, only solos. Therefore, the COC should stop immediately, forthwith all congregational singing. They have no mandate from the NT to do so. Only solos are permitted, and that only one at a time. That is what is mandated here. IT is also the best form of teaching--the very purpose of Scriptural singing. In this the COC does not carry out the mandate of the Bible.

 

[JSM17]

If each Christian understands that the scripture dictate singing, would not each one who understands the command sing, would that not imply congregational singing?

 

[DHK]

If each Christian understands that the scripture dictate singing, would not each one who understands the command sing, would that not imply congregational singing?

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing each other, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing in your hearts to the Lord;

Dwell in you richly in all wisdom. Abundantly, producing the spirit of true wisdom. That doctrine is
adapted to make you wise. The meaning is, that they were to lay up the doctrines of the gospel in their
hearts; to meditate upon them; to allow them to be their guide, and to endeavour wisely to improve
them to the best purpose. (Barnes)

The pronouns in the verse are singular not plural. This verse teaches that:
1. we need to have the word of God dwelling in each of our hearts individually. It is personal. It is the Word of God and you. It is not the Word of God and the congregation.
2. And so the verse continues. "Admonishing each other in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs." There is nothing congregational about this. One of the best ways to retain knowledge is through music. It was a way of teaching. I taught my children this way when they were young. What Christian family doesn't? "Jesus loves me this is know," was not learned in Sunday School, but by the parents teaching their children, as were so many other truths through song.
3. The purpose was not for entertainment, but for teaching and admonishing. Congregational singing doesn't always fit that bill.

 

[RAdam]

The pronouns in that verse are plural, not singular. In the KJ thee, thou, and thy are singular while you and your are plural. You are your are used in the texts from Col and Eph, thus Paul is addressing the people plurally. Those texts are without question given to the congregation.

 

[DHK]

The pronouns in that verse are plural, not singular. In the KJ thee, thou, and thy are singular while you and your are plural. You are your are used in the texts from Col and Eph, thus Paul is addressing the people plurally. Those texts are without question given to the congregation.

No, the verse is not addressed to a congregation. The verse teaches principles. Here is the verse, and here are the principles:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

1. Let the word of Christ dwell in richly in all wisdom.
--How is this best accomplished? It is best accomplished by memorizing God's Word, which is best done on a personal level, not sitting in a congregation. We are commanded to memorize God's Word, to let it dwell in us richly; and to let it dwell in all wisdom, which gives the added effect of meditation. We cannot meditate properly on God's Word unless we have it memorized.

It doesn't say the place. The congregation may be applicable here. That is incidental. It is not excluded. There is one interpretation but many applications. Applying to learning in a congregation is simply a minor application. The command is for all Christians to let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly, thus the plural pronouns.

2. teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs
--We are to teach and admonish one another. That is the principle. The place is not given, nor was ever intended to. It is a timeless principle. Again: One interpretation, many applications. It would be a minor application for this to be done in a congregation, and wrong to say that the application is exclusively congregationally when it can be accomplished much better on a one to one basis within the family, or using teachers. There are other applications to this verse outside the congregation of the church.
--We are to teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. How many of our hymns and the songs that we sings actually do that? How much do you get admonished by the songs sung in the church. Is that where we are taught? And yet that is the purpose of the song service in the church. This is better accomplished outside of the congregation than inside. In the first century singing was a major tool of teaching.

3. singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
--As in all places what use is our singing if it is not done with grace, and if it is not done in our hearts to the Lord. This applies to every place--not just: once-a-week-Christians.

Now look at an interesting note on some of the terms involved as defined by A.T. Robertson.

With psalms (psalmois, the Psalms in the Old Testament originally with musical accompaniment), hymns (humnois, praises to God composed by the Christians like 1Ti_3:16), spiritual songs (ōidais pneumatikais, general description of all whether with or without instrumental accompaniment). The same song can have all three words applied to it.
Singing with grace (en chariti āidontes). In God’s grace (2Co_1:12). The phrase can be taken with the preceding words. The verb āidō is an old one (Eph_5:19) for lyrical emotion in a devout soul.
In your hearts (en tais kardiais humōn). Without this there is no real worship “to God” (tōi theōi). How can a Jew or Unitarian in the choir lead in the worship of Christ as Saviour? Whether with instrument or with voice or with both it is all for naught if the adoration is not in the heart.

It is likely that musical instruments were used.

 

[steaver]

If we start doing whatever we want because the bible does not speak of it, before youknow it we will be doing all kinds of crazy thing and calling it worship, oh too late. I suppose if God wanted them He would have told us.

You say the NT tells us to sing ONLY. You declare that adding music to the singing would violate scripture since scripture does not say sing WITH MUSIC. This doctrine in itself is refuted by scripture, but let's use your standard and apply it to prayer.

The NT tells us to pray. Where does it tell us to pray AND close your eyes and bow your head? Do you ever close your eyes or bow your head when praying? If so, why? The bible does not say to close your eyes and bow your head while praying.

btw, prayer is worship.

Actually, the bible tells us to lift up our hands while praying. Is this what you do while praying? Or do you close your eyes and bow your head, an unfounded practice in scripture.

:jesus:

 

[rbell]

You people crack me up, comparing guitars and pianos with the things that you have shown above have nothing to do with one another. The N.T. says sing, so thats obviously what God wants from His people. I guess you can add whatever you like to the Lord's supper as well since the bible does not exclude cookies and other items.

The command is to sing, why is that so hard?

Well...the Bible doesn't say to sing in four-part harmony, so...



(BTW, the Church of Christ denomination (yes, I said it) is starting to fracture on this point. Two CoC churches in our area just started using instruments)

 

[rbell]

Yes, I agree completely. That's why I recommend that you consider Revelation 5:8: I take the position that if musical instruments are a part of worship in Heaven, then they should be acceptable to our rather pedestrian forms of worship here on earth. However, I will say that I used this once in a conversation with a CoC member, and she said to me, "Yes but that is Heaven and we shouldn't try to imitate them." :BangHead:

Don't expect a coherent response to this question. I have yet to see one on this issue from CoC folk...

 

[Aaron]

Absolutely nothing.

But the Church of Christ denomination does...and thus begins a debate on probably their most goofy point of doctrine.

Careful what you call goofy. Better men than you have come to the same conclusions:

This is the lesson to be gathered from the use of musical instruments under the old dispensation. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days, when Jesus gives us spiritual manhood, we can make melody without strings and pipes. We who do not believe these things to be expedient in worship, lest they should mar its simplicity, do not affirm them to be unlawful, and if any George Herbert or Martin Luther can worship God better by the aid of well tunes instruments, who shall gainsay their right? We do not need them, they would hinder than help our praise, but if others are otherwise minded, are they not living in gospel liberty? Charles Spurgeon

In otherwords, babes might like them, but those who are spiritually mature have put away childish things.

Here we have the first mention of musical instruments in the Psalms. It is to be observed that the early fathers almost with one accord protest against their use in churches; as they are forbidden in the Eastern church to this day, where yet, by the consent of all, the singing is infinitely superior to anything that can be heard in the West. J. M. Neale

Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaise. Thomas Aquinas.

It was only permitted to the Jews, as sacrifice was, for the heaviness and grossness of their souls. God condescended to their weakness, because they were lately drawn off from idols; but now instead of organs, we may use our own bodies to praise him withal. Chrysostom.

The use of singing with instrumental music was not received in the Christian churches as it was among the Jews in their infant state, but only the use of plain song. Justin Martyr

Quoted from the Treasury of David

The apostles never commended the practice, and all historical evidence available indicates that instruments were first brought into Christian worship centuries later through Rome.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, I agree completely. That's why I recommend that you consider Revelation 5:8: I take the position that if musical instruments are a part of worship in Heaven, then they should be acceptable to our rather pedestrian forms of worship here on earth. However, I will say that I used this once in a conversation with a CoC member, and she said to me, "Yes but that is Heaven and we shouldn't try to imitate them." :BangHead:

Revelation is symbolic, and wrenching symbols from their contexts to find support for a practice isn't helping your case.

What gifts did the Spirit give to the Church for use in worship?

 

[Aaron]

We haven't even started debating music styles John. We're still debating the validity of music itself! :BangHead:

No, you're debating the use of machines to make music. Not music itself.

 

[JSM17]

In the O.T. God commanded His worship with the use of certain things, He clarified how He was to be worshipped, He did not leave it up to man to decide how man should worship Him.

If God wanted mechanical instrument in worship under this New Covenant then He would have stated so. As for whether singing is congregational or a choir or solo, is an issue that I do not feel is the problem. We are to sing, who is to sing, Christians in worship towards God, should all Christians sing in worship to God, yes.

Aaron has made some good points, the very point that Mechanical instruments were brought in long after the first century church shows the progression through time for man to do what he wants and not what God has commanded.

The singing is to come from the heart. Jesus said that we are to worship God in spirit and truth. The truth is the words of God, therefore the word of God tells us to sing, to add to singing whatever we like is to not worship God in truth.

As for Revelation and worship, how do you account for the differences that are shown between the apostles and inspired writters on earth with what you find in the book of Revelation. How will you determine symbolism and reality for instruction for worship today here on earth verses in heaven?

If you mandate mechanical instruments because of the O.T. then I can see how one would feel that they could include heaven worship as instruction as well. Yet we are not following the ways of the O.T. Christ fullfilled the old covenant and brought forth the new covenant, and in the new covenant we have no example, command, or implication that they used mechanical worship in the assembling of the saints on earth.

Are mechanical instruments commanded? NO
Is singing commanded? YES

So what so hard about this, if you want to debate whether one, two, or more must sing, then we have left the point on the OP. It is clear to me that I must sing to God in worship, whether or not others have that conviction according to the word of God, is between them and God.

 

[rbell]

Careful what you call goofy. Better men than you have come to the same conclusions:

Better men than me can still have goofy facets of theology.

In otherwords, babes might like them, but those who are spiritually mature have put away childish things.

Ah, yes...the hint of spiritual immaturity, all because I dared to point out a misapplication of Scripture. Not sure how you got there, but I'm certain it was a fun trip for you.

Revelation is symbolic, and wrenching symbols from their contexts to find support for a practice isn't helping your case.

Funny...why would God use an "unscriptural" description...even if it was symbolic? Sticking with that story isn't helping your case.



This is as good a place as any to say: I've used the word "goofy," because I feel that this is a rather silly stand for CoC to take. It takes a really hard twist to get there, and some passages (such as the Revelation one mentioned earlier) must be outright ignored. Finally, it's just always seemed like a strange hill to die on to me. But I've seen a very wide latitude in CoC folk stance on this...like I mentioned earlier, I know of a couple CoC churches who use instruments in worship now...and others who'd rather swallow a piano than use one in a church service...and still others who "meet in the middle:" You can have a piano at church, and even use it for things (such as children's stuff)...but don't put it in the "sanctuary."

Interesting, it is...

 

[DHK]

No, you're debating the use of machines to make music. Not music itself.

You assume I was talking about instruments. You assume too much. I wasn't. There are styles of music within music itself without instruments. JMS17 so far only recognizes congregational singing, not even a trio or quartet sung without the use of instrument. That is style.

Be careful what you assume before you post.

 

[TCGreek]

Someone who is open to learning why other groups do what they do in worship, would not be posting as judgmental as JSM17 has been posting.

 

[Aaron]

Better men than me can still have goofy facets of theology.

So? Men of the calibre that were quoted have a reputation for gravity and sound doctrine. If they, with one accord, protest the use of instruments in worship, one should not assume it is simply because of an argument from silence, nor glibly dismiss it. Not one of them made the argument from silence.

Ah, yes...the hint of spiritual immaturity, all because I dared to point out a misapplication of Scripture. Not sure how you got there,

Uh . . . . it is a summary of Spurgeon's comments. Did you read the quote?

but I'm certain it was a fun trip for you.

Trip? I didn't even leave the couch.

Funny...why would God use an "unscriptural" description...even if it was symbolic?

Plowing isn't worship, but Christ uses it to symbolize discipleship.

Blowing trumpets isn't worship, but Paul uses the symbol to illustrate proper and improper uses of the gift of tongues.

Using your reasoning one could well hitch a team of oxen and drive a plow of the center aisle and call it worship.

 

[DHK]

In the O.T. God commanded His worship with the use of certain things, He clarified how He was to be worshipped, He did not leave it up to man to decide how man should worship Him.

Did he clarify the church buildings, the pews, the pulpit, the offering plates, the electricity to keep the buildings lit, warm, cool, etc. Where did he clarify these things? I live in a nation that (with the wind chill) gets down to minus 70. Do you think the Lord would allow us to use furnaces, though it is not clarified in the Bible?
You said: "God commanded His worship with the use of certain things." It is the other things that he didn't clarify that you just assume are wrong. That is a wrong assumption.

If God wanted mechanical instrument in worship under this New Covenant then He would have stated so.

That is not true. Then do away with your computer, church buildings, etc. God didn't state anything about those either. That argument from silence doesn't work.

As for whether singing is congregational or a choir or solo, is an issue that I do not feel is the problem. We are to sing, who is to sing, Christians in worship towards God, should all Christians sing in worship to God, yes.

Correct. The place is not mentioned. It is both outside and inside of the church. It is to be from the heart and to the Lord. That is what is stipulated, as well as having the characteristics of teaching and admonishing, which all music of this generation does not have.

Aaron has made some good points, the very point that Mechanical instruments were brought in long after the first century church shows the progression through time for man to do what he wants and not what God has commanded.

That is simply history. History is not Bible. One must go on Biblical principles not historical principles. I have showed you through A.T. Robertson's definition of the words of Col.3:16 that the very words indicate a use of instruments. One cannot be dogmatic about the absence of instruments. You cannot argue from silence.

The singing is to come from the heart. Jesus said that we are to worship God in spirit and truth. The truth is the words of God, therefore the word of God tells us to sing, to add to singing whatever we like is to not worship God in truth.

Where in the Bible does it say that those words cannot be accompanied by instruments? Was David wrong in playing his harp before Saul? Did not any good come out of it?

As for Revelation and worship, how do you account for the differences that are shown between the apostles and inspired writters on earth with what you find in the book of Revelation. How will you determine symbolism and reality for instruction for worship today here on earth verses in heaven?

Will the believers hear a trump or not. The Bible says that they will. Do you believe they will? If not, what will the hear? "When the trump of God shall sound..." Will you be left behind because you don't believe in instruments?

If you mandate mechanical instruments because of the O.T. then I can see how one would feel that they could include heaven worship as instruction as well. Yet we are not following the ways of the O.T. Christ fullfilled the old covenant and brought forth the new covenant, and in the new covenant we have no example, command, or implication that they used mechanical worship in the assembling of the saints on earth.

Your logic is flawed. What does the NT say about this?

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

There are many things written in the OT that are for our example. Musical instruments were not fulfilled at the cross. To come to such a conclusion is simply ludicrous, especially when they show up at Revelation again. BTW, they were used in the Corinthian Church. Paul rebukes their misuse, but not their abandonment.

Are mechanical instruments commanded? NO
Is singing commanded? YES

Were musical instruments used? Yes, in the Corinthian Church.
Is singing commanded? Yes. Thus yes on both accounts.

So what so hard about this, if you want to debate whether one, two, or more must sing, then we have left the point on the OP. It is clear to me that I must sing to God in worship, whether or not others have that conviction according to the word of God, is between them and God.

Correct, it doesn't matter where you are. You can be alone in the forest and sing to the Lord and use the birds as your instruments.

 

[Aaron]

BTW, they were used in the Corinthian Church.

What? Where in the world do you get that idea?

 

[rbell]

Using your reasoning one could well hitch a team of oxen and drive a plow of the center aisle and call it worship.

There's a punchline here involving another beast of burden, but I'll just leave it alone...

 

[Alive in Christ]

JSM17...

Did you ever think that the reason God never specifically says "sing, and also use instruments" is because...

1) He knows the old testament is filled with musical instruments, and He assumes that Christians will have the common sense to put 2 and 2 together and understand that they are OK.

2) He knows that musical instruments go with singing just like exhaling goes with inhaling...and so nobody will need to be told to use musical instruments.

Also...where does God specfically tell us in the new testament us to have specially built buildings for gathering and worship?

In the new testament they met in the Jewish buildings that were already built, or regular homes.


So, why are you guys not meeting in synogogs and homes?

What gives you the right to build buildings? You have no NT authorization. You are going beyond scripture.