What are you talking about? My point was that singing psalms does not necessitate the accompaniment of instruments, as DHK fallaciously asserted.
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Music in worship
- Thread starter JSM17
- Start date
Irrefutable? You need to consult a good lexicon to fully understand the NT use of the word. It can mean simply "sing songs."
So when James said, "Is any merry? let him sing psalms," he isn't commanding merry Christians to play instruments, he's simply telling them that singing praises to God is a proper outlet for godly merriment.
The use of the term "psalm" cannot in any way prove the use of instruments in the Corinthian church.
Talk of your logical fallacies!
Did you purposely ignore mine?
Again, a good lexicon would be a good investment.
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I believe in sola scriptura. The Bible is a much better source than history.
Here it is again.
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Some may have had a psalm with an instrument; some without. It doesn't say. In the light of silence one cannot be dogmatic. Now look at the definition of the word:
Psalms were traditionally accompanied by instruments. They were in the OT; there is nothing to say that they weren't in the NT. I have given you a NT passage with the definition of the word from a NT lexicon. I can give you half a dozen commentaries to back it up as well. I have done the research here.
What you have done is offered sarcasm.
Worship is grounded in our relation to God, as creature to the Creator. That means we must come before God on His terms. The gifts we offer are those He appoints.
Instrumental music was an act of worship and not an aid in the Old Testament. It was a separate act. Playing an instrument is doing something different from singing. To offer mechanical music would require explicit authorization from God.
When Paul was confronted with disorders in the worship assembly of the church at Corinth, he invoked the standard of what “edifies the church” to govern the conduct of the worshipers (1 Corinthians 14:4, 6, 9, 12, 19, 26). What goes on in the assembly must be intelligible, understandable. Rational, spiritual, vocal music corresponds to this criterion. “Each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification” (1 Corinthians 14:26 RSV). It is difficult to conceive of instrumental music contributing to the biblical meaning of edification, building one up in the faith. It is more likely to interfere with the purposes of edification than to contribute to them. The type of vocal praise that evolved in the synagogue and the early church made
instrumental music irrelevant.
We are commanded to do the things God has authorized in His word (Col. 3:17; 1 Cor. 4:6; 2 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 22:18-19).
The apostle Paul and the Jews understood that God's silence is not authoritative (Heb. 7:11-14; cf. Acts 15:24).
God has not authorized instrumental accompaniment in the church. He has only authorized us to sing, accompanied by the string of our heart.
Mechanical instruments in worship were authorized by the Mosaic Law and the
Prophets (2 Chron. 29:25f). But God changed the law (Heb. 7:12-14); we live
under the law of Christ today (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2; Heb. 5:9; cf. 2 Jn. 1:9).
God has not authorized mechanical instruments in the worship of the church (Eph. 5:18-20; Col. 3:16-17).
Instrumental music was an act of worship and not an aid in the Old Testament. It was a separate act. Playing an instrument is doing something different from singing. To offer mechanical music would require explicit authorization from God.
When Paul was confronted with disorders in the worship assembly of the church at Corinth, he invoked the standard of what “edifies the church” to govern the conduct of the worshipers (1 Corinthians 14:4, 6, 9, 12, 19, 26). What goes on in the assembly must be intelligible, understandable. Rational, spiritual, vocal music corresponds to this criterion. “Each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification” (1 Corinthians 14:26 RSV). It is difficult to conceive of instrumental music contributing to the biblical meaning of edification, building one up in the faith. It is more likely to interfere with the purposes of edification than to contribute to them. The type of vocal praise that evolved in the synagogue and the early church made
instrumental music irrelevant.
We are commanded to do the things God has authorized in His word (Col. 3:17; 1 Cor. 4:6; 2 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 22:18-19).
The apostle Paul and the Jews understood that God's silence is not authoritative (Heb. 7:11-14; cf. Acts 15:24).
God has not authorized instrumental accompaniment in the church. He has only authorized us to sing, accompanied by the string of our heart.
Mechanical instruments in worship were authorized by the Mosaic Law and the
Prophets (2 Chron. 29:25f). But God changed the law (Heb. 7:12-14); we live
under the law of Christ today (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal. 6:2; Heb. 5:9; cf. 2 Jn. 1:9).
God has not authorized mechanical instruments in the worship of the church (Eph. 5:18-20; Col. 3:16-17).
You obviously have not been to many different churches. In our church the singing accompanied with music really brings us together as we praise and worship God. Music is powerful in edifying God's children, you can see why music was used all throughout the scriptures to praise God.
Can you tell me where in the scripture God authorized closing your eyes while praying?
Correct. And God has told man numerous times to use instruments in praise and worship.
It certainly was not a separate act in my reading of the Old Testament. Instruments and voices raised in praise often happened together.
Do you use a hymnal in worship? Because God did not give explicit authorization to do so, did He?
As has been said, you have not been in a church with good worship music then. The music should not interfere - if it does, it is being done wrong. Instead, it is there to assist in worship - just as it was in the OT.
Do you use pews? Do you use lights? Do you use little cups to hold the wine/juice for communion? Do you use premade bread or do you make your own unleavened bread for communion? Do you use candles? Do you use a hymnal? Do you wear a suit to church? Do you sing your worship songs to a particular tune or just chant it? Do you meet in a church instead of a home?
None of these things are spoken of in Scripture. None of them. Yet you do them anyway in disobedience to God apparently.
Eph. 5:18-20 and Col. 3:16-17 neither affirm or deny the use of mechanical instruments in worship.
To look for denial and affirmation from these texts and the many others that the church of Christ movement allude to, is to miss what Paul had in mind.
Paul was neither affirm or denying. We're asking the wrong questions of Paul.
And when we ask the wrong questions, we're going to get the wrong answers.
To look for denial and affirmation from these texts and the many others that the church of Christ movement allude to, is to miss what Paul had in mind.
Paul was neither affirm or denying. We're asking the wrong questions of Paul.
And when we ask the wrong questions, we're going to get the wrong answers.
Ah, yes...the psalms that have notations about musical issues, and mention praising God with musical instruments...of course they would never use musical instruments while singing them...
don't let common sense and exegesis get in the way of your opinion, OK?
You know, this may be the best refutation of this CoC issue...
Because doing without music is more convenient than doing without electricity...so it boils down to flesh and pride.
Have you ever heard of someone offering up electrical lighting to the Lord as worship; NO? Have you ever hear anyone offering up air conditioning to the Lord in worship; NO?
Have you ever hear of someone offering up musical instruments to the Lord in worship; YES?
Is there not a difference? I see that there is. When ever God directly commands something for His people to do we do not add or take away. That principle is seen through out all scripture.
Wrong! No one offers up 'musical instruments' to the Lord in worship any more than they offer up their hymnals, music books or whatever to the Lord in worship.
We do not offer up objects to the Lord in worship.
God never commands that no instruments be played in or during the worship of God, but as a matter of biblical fact we see both with and without their usage through out scripture. Therefore to assert we should hold to only one side, is to directly contend against the Word of God. Not a good place to be for one who is a christian.
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Outstanding response.
Not so sure about that. I offer my house to the Lord al the time, asking that He use it for His glory, since it is He who blessed me with it. I offer up my car, my job, and other similar thing to the Lord all the time.
So you offer up your house to the Lord during every worship service at your church.
A bit out there isn't it
No, I try to offer my house to the Lord every opportunity I get (and fail often), but during our service's prayer time , yes, I offer my house to the Lord every sunday during our prayer time. Our prayer time, btw, is 10 minutes of private prayer and worship after communion.So you offer up your house to the Lord during every worship service at your church.
A bit out there isn't it
This is different than what is being expressed.
The use of musical instraments are a part of corporate worship (not private prayer).
To 'offer up' refers to giving something to God and if you give your house, job and other things to God - you can not take it back because it His and not yours. When you give your offering, you can not take it back from the church. You can offer them for His use or to use you while you are working, but you have not given them to Him in any real sense of the word and therefore you have not offered them up to Him.
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Darron Steele
New Member
So you offer up your house to the Lord during every worship service at your church.
A bit out there isn't it
Both of you:
JSM17 was probably not referring to "offer up" in the same way that Johnv is thinking.
JSM17 shows signs of being heavily influenced by the radical portions of the Churches of Christ -- which is actually a substantial portion of them. It is sometimes hard for their people to understand outside Christians, and vice-versa. I am going to try to help.
To us, the New Testament is our guide to Christian living. While it gives hints about how congregations did things back then, the main point of the New Testament is to guide overall Christian living and to tell us about Jesus Christ. The New Covenant "law of Christ" is of a different nature than the Old Covenant Law. Rather than focusing on external compliance, we are called to have genuine heartfelt devotion to Him and to serve Him accordingly throughout our lives.
In the radical portions of the Churches of Christ, which is a substantial portion of them, the assembled meetings are the core of Christian life. `Church meeting handbook' is assumed to be one of the main subjects of the New Testament.
To these people, the New Convenant is of the same form as the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was based on a strict worship code expressed explicitly in the first five books of the Old Testament. It is assumed that the New Covenant is based on a similar strict worship code, which is to be dug out of the New Testament. As I said before, the core of Christian life is viewed to be assembled worship. These people assume that the New Testament has scattered within it a worship code similar to that of the Old Testament but mainly about assembled worship.
Hence, when JSM17 objects to "offering up musical instruments to the Lord" s/he is probably talking about it as equivalent to offering an Old Covenant sacrifice.
S/he probably means something different than how we would mean it: giving something of ours to be used in service to the Lord. When Johnv offers up his house, he is giving it to be used for prayer meeting. I doubt that he sees it in the same way as an Old Covenant sacrifice.
I hope that helps.
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