Music in worship

[lbaker]

JSM17,

I imagine your reasoning is based on the usual arguments from Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16.

Something to think about - what is the context here? Is Paul even talking about what happens on Sunday mornings in those passages. He is talking general guides for Christian living, not about what the rules are for having church.

That dog won't hunt. Drop it. It is a dead issue and just makes the coC look dumb.

Christianity is not about following some Pattern anyway. It is about Jesus.

Please, the coC does have some valid points to contribute to the mix - but not this stuff.

 

[Darron Steele]

Emphasis mine:

JSM17,...
Please, the coC does have some valid points to contribute to the mix - but not this stuff.

Amen.

 

[Eric B]

I dont know how in the world they can justify this "no musical instruments" nonsense. Its an utterly absurd stance for bible believing christians to hold to.

If they enjoy singing accapella thats fine. Nothing wrong with that if that is what they want to do.

Groups like this do not believe in "preference" for "enjoyment" like that. It seems there's no point in having a practice like that if it's not God's true practice and everyone else is wrong. (1Jo 2:19)

 

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus Dei...

I posted to JSM...

"Why do you Church of Christ people insist on going beyond NT scripture, and doing something with absolutely no NT scriptural authorization, by building special buildings to meet in?"

And you responded...

"I'm certainly not CoC, but where exactly AiC do we read in the NT a command NOT to build "special buildings" (in other words a "church building") to meet in again?"

I think you might have missed my point.

I was pointing out the Church of Christ's hypocrisy.

They say that it is unscriptural, and a very bad thing to do, to use musical instruments in worship. Their reasoning is that there is no new testament scriptural permission given, or clear scriptural authorisation, for doing so.

Yet, there is also absolutly no new testament scriptural permission given, or authorisation given, for a church to build special "church" buildings to meet in. The new testament scriptural evidence only speaks of...

1) meeting in the catacombs
2) Meeting in Jewish synagogue buildings
3) Meeting in someones personal home.

Yet...in spite of having no new testament authorisation to build special buildings to worship in, they do it anyway.


But then they turn around and condemn musical instruments because there is no new testament authorisation.

See the problem?

 

[JSM17]

JSM17,

I imagine your reasoning is based on the usual arguments from Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16.

Something to think about - what is the context here? Is Paul even talking about what happens on Sunday mornings in those passages. He is talking general guides for Christian living, not about what the rules are for having church.

That dog won't hunt. Drop it. It is a dead issue and just makes the coC look dumb.

Christianity is not about following some Pattern anyway. It is about Jesus.

Please, the coC does have some valid points to contribute to the mix - but not this stuff.

If Christianity is not about following a pattern then are we left to do what we want when we want it? Is this BurgerKing, "Have it your way"? Do you worship with instruments IBaker?

When it comes to music in the worship I will follow the pattern given in N.T. scripture, I will sing and not add to that. All the other implications of buildings and air conditioning and electricity are not offered up as worship like the music.

 

[lbaker]

If Christianity is not about following a pattern then are we left to do what we want when we want it? Is this BurgerKing, "Have it your way"? Do you worship with instruments IBaker?

Yes, as long as it is done "decently and in order" as Paul says.

Absolutely, even been a drummer in a couple of praise bands.

Now, a question for you, trying to get at your understanding of Paul's context:

Do you only abstain from instruments in the assembly or do you avoid any music, any time, with instruments?

Thanks.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I was pointing out the Church of Christ's hypocrisy.

They say that it is unscriptural, and a very bad thing to do, to use musical instruments in worship. Their reasoning is that there is no new testament scriptural permission given, or clear scriptural authorisation, for doing so.

Yet, there is also absolutly no new testament scriptural permission given, or authorisation given, for a church to build special "church" buildings to meet in. The new testament scriptural evidence only speaks of...

1) meeting in the catacombs
2) Meeting in Jewish synagogue buildings
3) Meeting in someones personal home.

Yet...in spite of having no new testament authorisation to build special buildings to worship in, they do it anyway.

But then they turn around and condemn musical instruments because there is no new testament authorisation.

See the problem?

OK AiC, obviously you're not going to find any NT scripture forbidding the building of Church buildings and true, Early Christian History clearly shows that Christians met in homes, in large part due to the persecutions of Christians...hence before we recite the Creed during our Liturgy the priest says: "The Doors, the Doors!"...which meant that a watchman was set at the doors as a lookout in the Early Church. It wasn't until after Christianity was freed that we see people worshipping in more public places and Church buildings being erected.

Next, Christ didn't come to institute a new style, if you will, of worship. Jesus was a Jew and He still worshipped in the Temple as a pious Jew would've. We have no record of Jesus telling the Jews that their "worship" is wrong, sure the Pharisees were hypocrites and Jesus didn't mince words about that, but they still worshipped as their ancestors did.

Using Scripture AiC, please show the class were musical instruments were used in Jewish worship...INSIDE the Temple. We read of people praising God with musical instruments, when the foundation of the Temple was laid and after a battle was won, but show us an actual scene of Temple worship with these musical instruments in use in either the OT or NT.

Next, show us from Early Church history, where early Christians worshipping in homes, used musical instruments.

As an Orthodox Christian, we do not use musical instruments in our worship and never have. Jews and Pagans were converted to Christianity in the Early Church and it is well recorded history that Pagans used musical instruments in worshipping their gods, among other inappropriate activities, thus just as the Early Church didn't use musical instruments, neither do we today.

Is it wrong for other Churches, no, but it can be excessive and needs to be monitored.

Some of our Western Rite Orthodox Churches use an Organ in their services, but that's in large part a Western influence, kinda like Pews in a Church...most Orthodox Churches overseas have no pews and even some Orthodox Churches here in the US. Pews are a Western influence and we do have pews in our Cathedral...even kneelers are a Western influence...

Bottom line is this: What we need to look at is using musical instruments in worship services a distraction? Who decides how much musical instruments can be used and the type and what is this based on? When is enough, enough.

I was raised a Baptist, with a piano, now when I visit my home Church, which is considered an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, KJVO...there's now a fiddle, banjo and a bass added. My dad is a deacon and is NOT a happy camper about this new "change".

I attended a United Methodist Church for about a year after I left the Baptist faith, and there was a full band...electric guitars, basses, two drum sets, piano, keyboards; it was like going to a Third Day concert and I LOVED it, but for the wrong reasons, but they packed the house every Sunday morning.

Now I'm Orthodox and worship is less of a distraction, I'm no longer disappointed when my favorite worship song isn't played with that groovy bass line, that's not what worship is about....

Worship is NOT religious entertainment.

Now, I'm not the one to decide who's right and who's wrong and with the market place of Protestant denominations, one can easily choose their cup of tea.

But AiC, you have to admit...it's getting outta hand in some Churches.

In XC
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[Zenas]

OK AiC, obviously you're not going to find any NT scripture forbidding the building of Church buildings and true, Early Christian History clearly shows that Christians met in homes, in large part due to the persecutions of Christians...hence before we recite the Creed during our Liturgy the priest says: "The Doors, the Doors!"...which meant that a watchman was set at the doors as a lookout in the Early Church. It wasn't until after Christianity was freed that we see people worshipping in more public places and Church buildings being erected.

Next, Christ didn't come to institute a new style, if you will, of worship. Jesus was a Jew and He still worshipped in the Temple as a pious Jew would've. We have no record of Jesus telling the Jews that their "worship" is wrong, sure the Pharisees were hypocrites and Jesus didn't mince words about that, but they still worshipped as their ancestors did.

Using Scripture AiC, please show the class were musical instruments were used in Jewish worship...INSIDE the Temple. We read of people praising God with musical instruments, when the foundation of the Temple was laid and after a battle was won, but show us an actual scene of Temple worship with these musical instruments in use in either the OT or NT.

Next, show us from Early Church history, where early Christians worshipping in homes, used musical instruments.

As an Orthodox Christian, we do not use musical instruments in our worship and never have. Jews and Pagans were converted to Christianity in the Early Church and it is well recorded history that Pagans used musical instruments in worshipping their gods, among other inappropriate activities, thus just as the Early Church didn't use musical instruments, neither do we today.

Is it wrong for other Churches, no, but it can be excessive and needs to be monitored.

Some of our Western Rite Orthodox Churches use an Organ in their services, but that's in large part a Western influence, kinda like Pews in a Church...most Orthodox Churches overseas have no pews and even some Orthodox Churches here in the US. Pews are a Western influence and we do have pews in our Cathedral...even kneelers are a Western influence...

Bottom line is this: What we need to look at is using musical instruments in worship services a distraction? Who decides how much musical instruments can be used and the type and what is this based on? When is enough, enough.

I was raised a Baptist, with a piano, now when I visit my home Church, which is considered an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, KJVO...there's now a fiddle, banjo and a bass added. My dad is a deacon and is NOT a happy camper about this new "change".

I attended a United Methodist Church for about a year after I left the Baptist faith, and there was a full band...electric guitars, basses, two drum sets, piano, keyboards; it was like going to a Third Day concert and I LOVED it, but for the wrong reasons, but they packed the house every Sunday morning.

Now I'm Orthodox and worship is less of a distraction, I'm no longer disappointed when my favorite worship song isn't played with that groovy bass line, that's not what worship is about....

Worship is NOT religious entertainment.

Now, I'm not the one to decide who's right and who's wrong and with the market place of Protestant denominations, one can easily choose their cup of tea.

But AiC, you have to admit...it's getting outta hand in some Churches.

In XC
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Well said, Agnus. These are my sentiments exactly and I wish they were the sentiments of everyone, including my director of music.

 

[DHK]

Next, show us from Early Church history, where early Christians worshipping in homes, used musical instruments.

Show us where it wasn't used. This is the illogical statement of people of your persuasion. Actually, I agree with most of what you said. But to state: "Early Christians worshipplng in homes (did not) use musical instruments is a logical fallacy--a universal negative. This is what you have basically stated. You cannot state that with any authority. You have no way to demonstrate it. You have no way to go back into history and check out every church in history and see whether or not instruments were used. It is impossible.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Show us where it wasn't used. This is the illogical statement of people of your persuasion. Actually, I agree with most of what you said. But to state: "Early Christians worshipplng in homes (did not) use musical instruments is a logical fallacy--a universal negative. This is what you have basically stated. You cannot state that with any authority. You have no way to demonstrate it. You have no way to go back into history and check out every church in history and see whether or not instruments were used. It is impossible.

But of course I can DHK, in addition to the Didache, we have four (4) other documents to help us understand not only how the Early Church was organized, but also HOW the Early Church worshipped.

1 Clement; the Letters of St. Ignatios of Antioch; the Apologies of St. Justin the Philosopher and Against Heresies by Si. Irenaios of Lyons.

One could say that St. Irenaios is the theologian par excellence of the second century. His Against Heresies is a gold mine of information. This work dates from the second half of the second century. He was originally from Asia Minor and knew St. Polycarp of Smyrna, who was himself a disciple of St. John the Apostle. Thus, Irenaios was a spiritual grand-child of the Apostles.

From these documents we learn much about the Church of the first two centuries, from a definite governing structure to how the Church worshipped according to a pattern based upon types set forth in the Old Testament. And this life of worship lives on today in the Orthodox Church. Thus, we do not have musical instruments in our services, not then, and not in the future.

That doesn't mean we are against music, we defiantly do some celebrating and music is involved, but there's a time and a place for that and that's not the time for it in our Liturgy.

In XC
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[DHK]

But of course I can DHK, in addition to the Didache, we have four (4) other documents to help us understand not only how the Early Church was organized, but also HOW the Early Church worshipped.
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Did you happen to check all 100 plus churches that Paul started, plus the churches that Thomas started in India.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Did you happen to check all 100 plus churches that Paul started, plus the churches that Thomas started in India.

No, I don't need to, the Apostles didn't go forth each developing his own style of worship. The four (4) documents I presented reflects the attitude of the Church collectively (including St. Paul's Churches and St. Thomas') in the infancy of the Early Church.

Unless you can present to the class, ummm, documentation of early Baptist worship in the first or second centuries to refute these documents I listed above...

In XC
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[DHK]

No, I don't need to, the Apostles didn't go forth each developing his own style of worship. The four (4) documents I presented reflects the attitude of the Church collectively (including St. Paul's Churches and St. Thomas') in the infancy of the Early Church.

Unless you can present to the class, ummm, documentation of early Baptist worship in the first or second centuries to refute these documents I listed above...

In XC
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Yes there is a need to you. You cannot give proof by assumption. You cannot prove a universal negative. Can't you see all the illogical inconsistencies you have fallen into. Just because some churches didn't use instruments; just because that was the prevailing attitude in some areas doesn't mean it was in every area or in every church. You have no proof of that. You haven't researched it out, nor can you. It is impossible for you to do that.

"There is no God" the atheist says.
How does he know? Has he looked everywhere?
You use the same logic.

 

[FlyForFun]

Unless you can present to the class, ummm, documentation of early Baptist worship in the first or second centuries to refute these documents I listed above...

Oh good grief... the argument of antiquity....

How about we settle any differences by appealing to scripture, which pre-dates any "documentation" any of the so-called ancient churches can proffer?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Yes there is a need to you. You cannot give proof by assumption.

I don't assume anything DHK, the early Church was not a fend for yourself, figure it out along the way entity...your view of early Church development is skewed.

All the Apostles were in essence Bishops and all walked this earth with the Creator of this Universe and they were Jews, pious Jews at that. Each Church they established, regardless of where it was located, was oversaw by them, the Apostles, thus, one Church didn't do things differently from let's say Peter's Churches in the West...along the way disciples of the Apostles, the Apostolic Church Fathers oversaw these Churches and later themselves as the Church grew, became Bishops themselves and oversaw additional Churches.

By the time of the First Ecumenical Council came about, it was necessary to align these Churches under SEE's, which eventually led to Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandra. Even though today, the Antiochian Orthodox Church in the USA is considered "autonomous", we're still under the Patriarch of Antioch.

It's funny how you believe/ASSUME St. Thomas established Churches in India and this IS based on what DHK? Tradition and the writings of the Fathers of the Church and NOT Holy Scripture, yet you disregard these same writings when they mention Church structure ect...

In XC
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[Agnus_Dei]

Oh good grief... the argument of antiquity....

How about we settle any differences by appealing to scripture, which pre-dates any "documentation" any of the so-called ancient churches can proffer?

The issue with this thread is that there are different denominations, with very different forms of church government and worship all chiming in, and most claim to be based on the "New Testament model."

The problem with this is that the New Testament is not very specific about how the Church is to be organized or how services are to be conducted. It would be a grave mistake, however, to infer from this that the early Church had no definite structure or patterns of worship. As DHK would like to imply. The New Testament does not give a detailed plan of Church government, because the Church already existed when the books of the New Testament were being written. The epistles of the NT were not written to be an "owner's manual" so to speak.

Because of this, if we want to know more about the early Church, we must look beyond the pages of the Scriptures to the earliest documents of the post-apostolic Church. This is not to suggest that these other documents are more important-or even as important-as Holy Scripture; they certainly are not. Their importance lies in the fact that they tell us how the earliest Christians interpreted the Bible and applied those interpretations to their lives. In doing so, they answer many of the questions that modern Protestants have about Church life.

In XC
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[lbaker]

You make a good point about going to the church fathers, where scripture isn't specific. The only caveat is that we need to allow for the influence of culture before we get too dogmatic in saying this is the way, the only way...

 

[Agnus_Dei]

You make a good point about going to the church fathers, where scripture isn't specific. The only caveat is that we need to allow for the influence of culture before we get too dogmatic in saying this is the way, the only way...

and you would be correct Ibaker and the Orthodox Church anyway, isn't "dogmatic" about musical instruments in Church service and where there is musical instruments, it's due to culture...I mentioned before that our Western Rite of the Antiochian Church normally has a piano (manly to keep the choir in tune as we in the Orthodox Church sing certain hymns in certain TONE's (if that's making any sense)), but Byzantine Churches Traditionally do not.

Traditionally musical instruments are not used in actual worship as they are used in our modern Protestant mega churches with huge praise bands...this is the point I'm making and may not have conveyed that as well as I should...but this is why we discuss and ask questions.

If any musical instruments were used in worship in the Early Church, they were used to get the attention of the faithful or to signal the commencement of reciting the Creed for example...even our Church will ring a small cymbal when it's time for the faithful to approach the chalice for Holy Communion.

But, my main point of emphasis was musical instruments as we see them today, used in protestant worship services and I don't think you can find this in the Early Church.

In XC
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[Alive in Christ]

Agnus Dei says...

"Because of this, if we want to know more about the early Church, we must look beyond the pages of the Scriptures to the earliest documents of the post-apostolic Church."

Yet God says...

"15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[a] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Examples: Catholicism, The Orthodox, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Jim Jones, David Coresh, etc etc.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Well AiC, put yer money where your mouth is and show the class where in Holy Scripture there's an outline of what's right worship.

Examples: Catholicism, The Orthodox, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Jim Jones, David Coresh, etc etc.

...and to put Catholicism and the Orthodox in the same sentence as Jim Jones, Coresh and the others is just an idiotic statement.

In XC
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