Music in worship

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus Dei...

"...and to put Catholicism and the Orthodox in the same sentence as Jim Jones, Coresh and the others is just an idiotic statement."

Not in the context in which I said it.

They all turn to other sources then the scriptures for authoritative truth....




Jim Jones: His teachings and pronouncments.

David Koresh: His teachings and pronouncments

Catholicism: The edicts of the Catholic Church, the Popes pronouncments, the Catholic Catichism, "Tradition", etc

Mormons: Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants

Jehovahs Wittnesses: Watchtower teachings

The Orthodox: "Tradition" and The early church fathers

Scientology: The teachings of Ron Hubbard

Christian Science: The teachings of Mary Baker Eddy





Every single cult leader or cultic group I just listed up there has at least one thing in common.

They turn from the scriptures as their only source of authoritative doctrine, and turn to mere men, heeding what they say over what God teaches in the scriptures.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Agnus Dei...



Not in the context in which I said it.

They all turn to other sources then the scriptures for authoritative truth....




Jim Jones: His teachings and pronouncments.

David Koresh: His teachings and pronouncments

Catholicism: The edicts of the Catholic Church, the Popes pronouncments, the Catholic Catichism, "Tradition", etc

Mormons: Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants

Jehovahs Wittnesses: Watchtower teachings

The Orthodox: "Tradition" and The early church fathers

Scientology: The teachings of Ron Hubbard

Christian Science: The teachings of Mary Baker Eddy





Every single cult leader or cultic group I just listed up there has at least one thing in common.

They turn from the scriptures as their only source of authoritative doctrine, and turn to mere men, heeding what they say over what God teaches in the scriptures.

Just what I figured...you can't prove from Holy Scripture how worship is outlined...but do carry-on, it makes for good entertainment...:applause:

In XC
-

 

[Alive in Christ]

Agnus...

YOU are the one who said THIS...

"...and to put Catholicism and the Orthodox in the same sentence as Jim Jones, Coresh and the others is just an idiotic statement."

So, I answered your statement with the evidence.


And now you want to quickly change the subject. :laugh:


Not surprising...

 

[annsni]

If the New Testament doesn't give us a complete outline of how to worship, don't you think if it were absolutely necessary to worship only one perfect way, that God would have shown us? Couldn't He have handled writing that down?

We see how to do communion and baptism. We see that we are to gather for teaching, prayer, praise and exhortation. Beyond that, it is not regulated. How we do each is up to us. No where in Scripture are we told to use microphones in the service but we do. No where in Scripture are we told to use hymnals but we do.

We see in the Old Testament just how God feels about music - and we can be assured that God delights when hearts are lifted to him in prayer, in worship and in praise.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni posted...

"If the New Testament doesn't give us a complete outline of how to worship, don't you think if it were absolutely necessary to worship only one perfect way, that God would have shown us? Couldn't He have handled writing that down?

We see how to do communion and baptism. We see that we are to gather for teaching, prayer, praise and exhortation. Beyond that, it is not regulated. How we do each is up to us. No where in Scripture are we told to use microphones in the service but we do. No where in Scripture are we told to use hymnals but we do.

We see in the Old Testament just how God feels about music - and we can be assured that God delights when hearts are lifted to him in prayer, in worship and in praise."

Perfectly said.

Well done Ann!

 

[DHK]

I don't assume anything DHK, the early Church was not a fend for yourself, figure it out along the way entity...your view of early Church development is skewed.

Your whole argument is based on assumption. It is called: "fallacy of assumption." You just assume that things the world over are the way that you have read in the documents you have acquired--a ridiculous stand to take.
Where did Paul go? He went as far as Spain and Italy, and into Macedonia, Achaia, and of course Jerusalem and all the regions about. You can only assume that worship was uniform throughout, but you cannot prove it.
Proof by assumption is no proof at all!

Do the Spaniards worship the same as the Ethiopians (Acts 8), or the Samaritans, or the Italians, or the Corinthians, or those at Jerusalem, or those in India (Thomas)? Of course not. You have no proof that all worship was uniform.

All the Apostles were in essence Bishops

I am sure that all the Apostles also used the KJV.
The apostles were overseers--the definition of the word bishop.
The word was used interchangeably with pastor and elder, used to describe the different function of the same office (service).

and all walked this earth with the Creator of this Universe and they were Jews, pious Jews at that.

No they weren't. They were Christians; followers of Christ, not Judaism. There is a difference. When a Muslim believes in Christ he leaves Islam behind. He is no longer a Muslim. When a Jew became a Christian he left his old religion of Judaism behind and became a Christian, a follower of Christ. His family even persecuted him for it. Why did Saul persecute the church of God when it was mostly made up of "converted Jews." No, they were not Jews.

Each Church they established, regardless of where it was located, was oversaw by them, the Apostles, thus, one Church didn't do things differently from let's say Peter's Churches in the West...along the way disciples of the Apostles, the Apostolic Church Fathers oversaw these Churches and later themselves as the Church grew, became Bishops themselves and oversaw additional Churches.

Simply not true. What Apostles oversaw the churches in Spain after Paul was beheaded. We don't know of any. Each apostle died a martyr's death. By the end of the first century they were all dead. Each church was independent. You should know better. They didn't have telephones and the internet in those days. 100 churches established by Paul could not easily communicate with each other and were left to themselves as to church government. That is why we have the Pastoral Epistles in our canon of Scripture. They are instructions for every Bible-believing church to take heed to.

By the time of the First Ecumenical Council came about, it was necessary to align these Churches under SEE's, which eventually led to Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandra. Even though today, the Antiochian Orthodox Church in the USA is considered "autonomous", we're still under the Patriarch of Antioch.

Your imagination is working overtime and your view of history has been tainted by the RCC which is highly unfortunate. The Bible speaks nothing of a SEE. I don't "see" it in the Bible at all. It is a man-made position. It led to apostasy, and heresy in the churches.

It's funny how you believe/ASSUME St. Thomas established Churches in India and this IS based on what DHK? Tradition and the writings of the Fathers of the Church and NOT Holy Scripture, yet you disregard these same writings when they mention Church structure ect...
In XC
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Yes, it is based on some tradition, some history.
I also believe that Shakespeare wrote Macbeth. What is that based on? It is not based on the Bible. I don't discount history. There is plenty of historical information in India itself to back this up. So it is not just tradition. We are speaking of history, not doctrine. If I hadn't studied something about it first I wouldn't have posted it. Don't you believe in history?

 

[lbaker]

But, my main point of emphasis was musical instruments as we see them today, used in protestant worship services and I don't think you can find this in the Early Church.

In XC
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and I think you are probably correct about that.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

If the New Testament doesn't give us a complete outline of how to worship, don't you think if it were absolutely necessary to worship only one perfect way, that God would have shown us? Couldn't He have handled writing that down?

I've already addressed this issue in a previous post....The New Testament does not give a detailed plan of Church government, because the Church already existed when the books of the New Testament were being written. The epistles of the NT were not written to be an "owner's manual" so to speak.

The Church was already up and running, before the NT was settled...

In XC
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[Agnus_Dei]

And now you want to quickly change the subject.

Not so fast my young Padawan learner...remember, YOU couldn't back up your claims w/ Scripture in regard to Worship...instead you wanna play 3rd grade "I know you are, but what am I" kids stuff, instead of backing up your claims.

Furthermore, I'd much rather be aligned with the Church Fathers (plural) than your POPE James White...you cult follower...:laugh:

In XC
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[Agnus_Dei]

Don't you believe in history?

Of Course DHK...I'm an ORTHODOX Christian!!! :thumbs:

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

Of Course DHK...I'm an ORTHODOX Christian!!! :thumbs:

In XC
-

Then use history. The trouble is that you cannot use history to establish the premise you set forth, and therefore fail in what you present. You are caught in the horns of your own dilemma. History works against you. You have an absence of history. You can't prove anything with an absence of history; that is from silence. You stack one illogical fallacy upon another.

 

[JSM17]

DHK WROTE:

You can't prove anything with an absence of history; that is from silence.

Your can't prove anything from silence, Amen. The N.T. is silent on mechanical instruments in earthy N.T. worship. Therefore you can't prove anything from that silence.

DHK WROTE:

You cannot give proof by assumption

You assume that they did have instrument were is your proof?

 

[JSM17]

IBAKER WROTE:

Do you only abstain from instruments in the assembly or do you avoid any music, any time, with instruments?

Nope just in corporate worship.

In one of your posts you commented that Ephesians 5:19 and Col. 3:16 are not refering to the assembling?

Eph 5:19

19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
NKJV


When do you speak to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs?

 

[lbaker]

In one of your posts you commented that Ephesians 5:19 and Col. 3:16 are not refering to the assembling?

Eph 5:19

19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
NKJV


When do you speak to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs?

That would be an everyday life thing, part of the Christian walk, or lifestyle. That is the context of what Paul is writing about.

This train of thought begins in Ephesians 4.

In verse 17 Paul writes:

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[d] the Gentiles walk...

Now, is this only when we're in church, or is this a daily thing?

In verse 21:

21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Again, is this only for Sunday mornings, or is this 24/7, 7 days a week?

Verse 25:

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[e] for we are members of one another.

Are we only not to lie on Sundays, or is this everyday?

Jumping down to verse 30:

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God...

Are we only not to grieve the Holy Spirit on Sundays? Is it okay to grieve Him on Tuesday? Of course not!

Verse 32:

32 And be kind to one another...

Do we only have to be nice on Sunday morning?

Continuing the same thoughts into chapter 5, verse 1:

1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love...

Should we only walk in love when we assemble?

Verse 11:

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness...

Is it okay to fellowship with the works of darkness on Monday?

Verse 17:

17 Therefore do not be unwise...

So, is it okay to be unwise anytime, except on Sundays?

Verse 18:

18 And do not be drunk with wine...

Are we only not supposed to be drunkards when we assemble?

Last part of verse 18 and verse 19:

but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

Should we only be filled with the Spirit one day a week? Surely not! Following this train of thought verse 19 naturally means that instead of being filled with wine, we should be filled with the Spirit, and what overflows from that filling with the Spirit is that we speak to each other in psalms and hymns, etc. This is not limited to Sunday mornings, or Sunday nights, or Wednesday nights. It is a 24/7 kind of deal.

Picking up with verse 20 and continuing the same context:

20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.[c]

Should we only be thankful in the assembly, or submit to one another in the assembly?

Verse 22:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands...

Should wives only honor their husbands in church?

Verse 25:

25 Husbands, love your wives...

Should we only love our wives in church?

Continuing into chapter 6, verse 1:

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord...

Surely our kids shouldn't only be obedient in church!

The context continues on with talk about slaves and masters and the armor of God, all clearly stuff that is day-to-day, not limited to when we come together as a church.

So, if verse 5:19 is a command to only use non-instrumental music when we sing, it is a 24/7 command and not only for Sunday worship. The good news is that is not the point. The point is to be filled with the Spirit all the time, and let that filling spill out in how we communicate with each other. Does Paul mean we should go around singing all the time? I doubt it. He is just sort of using poetic language to make the point about being filled with the Spirit and how spiritual stuff should spill over from that, 24/7.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Then use history. The trouble is that you cannot use history to establish the premise you set forth, and therefore fail in what you present. You are caught in the horns of your own dilemma. History works against you. You have an absence of history. You can't prove anything with an absence of history; that is from silence. You stack one illogical fallacy upon another.

Wait a minute DHK...I just listed for you four (4) Early Church documents written in the Second and Third Centuries, but these are just 4 out of a slew of other documents.

This IS recorded history DHK...what planet are you from?

Now DHK, if you want to talk about being caught in the horns of dilemma, History working against you and the absence of History....try what I did, but with Baptist History, especially from your Landmarkism view.

In XC
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[DHK]

Wait a minute DHK...I just listed for you four (4) Early Church documents written in the Second and Third Centuries, but these are just 4 out of a slew of other documents.

This IS recorded history DHK...what planet are you from?

Now DHK, if you want to talk about being caught in the horns of dilemma, History working against you and the absence of History....try what I did, but with Baptist History, especially from your Landmarkism view.
In XC
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Sure you listed four documents. So what. When trying to prove a universal negative that becomes quite useless. Do your documents cover the mode of music for all the churches that Paul started in Spain; for all the churches that Thomas started in India; for those that Matthew started when he went to Ethiopia? Have you accounted for all of these churches--every last one of them?

 

[DHK]

DHK WROTE:


Your can't prove anything from silence, Amen. The N.T. is silent on mechanical instruments in earthy N.T. worship. Therefore you can't prove anything from that silence.

I am not the one trying to prove a universal negative. I never stated that ALL the churches didn't use musical instruments--(a statement impossible to prove).
I will concede that some of the churches did not use musical instruments, but not all of them. That cannot be proven. No one, but God has that knowledge. Can't you understand that. You or the COC are not omniscient and cannot possibly have access to that knowledge.

DHK WROTE:

You assume that they did have instrument were is your proof?

I don't assume anything. I realize that some did and some did not. You can't prove it one way or the other. Even if the church at Jerusalem did not use instruments, that doesn't mean that all the churches in Spain and Ethiopia and in Corinth, did not. You can't make that assumption. I am not the one making dogmatic statements here. You are. For you to foolishly state that all churches did not use musical instruments, puts you at the peril of some of the most illogical statements and fallacies ever made. They don't make sense and cannot be proven. I have not made any such statements.

 

[Johnv]

18 pages, and STILL not a single scripture that says instruments in worship are not allowed.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

18 pages, and STILL not a single scripture that says instruments in worship are not allowed.

You won't find such in Holy Scripture Johnv. The New Testament does not give a detailed plan of Church government or worship structure, because the Church already existed when the books of the New Testament were being written.

The epistles of the NT were not written to be an "owner's manual" so to speak.

In XC
-

 

[billwald]

>They turn from the scriptures as their only source of authoritative doctrine, and turn to mere men, heeding what they say over what God teaches in the scriptures.

The use of "only" is argumentative. In the same way, do some Dispensationalists "only" use Scofield's Notes?

Why is no one arguing against the use of air conditioning and electric lighting during (for, to assist) worship?

By the way, some argue that the NT does not describe "worshp" because every one already knew what "worship" was. It was the sort of stuff that went on in the Temple. The Jerusalem Christians worshipped in the Temple.