It is an old recognized hymn that at one time was evidently popular before it became a pop song. You like the old hymns in which many were written in the era of the 1930's and before. Just wondering why you would exclude from your list of old hymns a song like that. I myself don't like the song being sung in a church but have heard it done in quite a few.
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Music
- Thread starter HAMel
- Start date
It is an old recognized hymn that at one time was evidently popular before it became a pop song. You like the old hymns in which many were written in the era of the 1930's and before. Just wondering why you would exclude from your list of old hymns a song like that. I myself don't like the song being sung in a church but have heard it done in quite a few.
nodak said:
Actually, that didn't occur in a church service.
...otherwise, good post.
Yeah...and?
What I like is irrelevant. We're talking about music for worship in a corporate service, not what I like.
If we based worship on my listening preferences, our services would sound a lot more like Saturday night than Sunday morning, to borrow a line from Jimmy Buffett.
But I guess if you just ignore everything I say and insist on the straw man that I have the authority to dictate our music (which I don't) and that our music is based solely on my personal tastes (which it is not), you won't have to think.
Because of its terrible doctrine and because of its unsuitability for corporate singing and because it doesn't meet the requirements of worship, praise, or instruction.
ashleysdad
Member
I think the church as a whole needs to take a serious look at why so many young adults are leaving church after they leave high school. I read a statistic that 80% kids raised in church will leave when they graduate high school. We need to figure out why they are leaving at such a high rate. I do not believe that the number one reason that this exodus is occuring is because of the music that a church does or does not use. If they want a more contemporary worship style there are plenty of churchs that provide that. I think that the reason young adults are leaving the church goes much deeper. I think music is the crutch that people hide behind but in my opinion the real problem is that the church is failing miserably in its job to teach and disciple the believers. They come into our churchs once or twice a week and what are they being taught? I know that in my area the majority of the youth programs (this is churchs in general not just Baptist) focus more on entertainment than on teaching and discipleship. Is it any wonder than that the young adults are growing up and deciding church isn't important? It has nothing (or very little) to do with music. If we want to keep the young adults in church we have got to step up to the plate and do a MUCH better job of preparing them to face "the real world". They ask questions and we tell them "just have faith". While I agree that faith is vital, do we understand that Monday thru Friday they are being bombarded with secular humanism that gives them (supposedly) tangible, real life evidence to back up what they are teaching? Change the music program to whatever you like but until we start equipping our young people with the tools necessary (christian science, apologetics, and theology) to fight the spiritual warfare they face everyday we are going to continue to lose them regardless of the worship style that we use.
I just attended some workshops and their theory is that they get to a secular college and their faith gets challenged. Most it is sad to say haven't had deep spiritual training from church and many don't have parents who are deep. I know many of the kids in our church are from broken homes and from a single parent family. The parent hasn't spent time in scripture enough to train them, the church felt it was more the parents job and they don't get deep training, so when thier faith is challenged they leave the church.
What's the answer:
A church school for undergraduates?
Getting them into a good religious university for the basics and then on to the school of their choice for their major.
We need to get them to where they can defend their faith and have stickability.
ashleysdad, my daughter is a graduate of Pensacola Christian College and believe me when I tell you she came home a liberated woman.
They come into our churchs once or twice a week and what are they being taught?
In all the years we have attended Baptist Churches I've been preached to in every service that I'm not doing enough and I need to be saved.
Just recently we have come under the leadership of a man who's been preaching for 35 years and this guy teaches like I've never heard before. It's really refreshing to learn for a change.
They come into our churchs once or twice a week and what are they being taught?
In all the years we have attended Baptist Churches I've been preached to in every service that I'm not doing enough and I need to be saved.
Just recently we have come under the leadership of a man who's been preaching for 35 years and this guy teaches like I've never heard before. It's really refreshing to learn for a change.
I believe in the term Pastor/Teacher as a gift. When I pastor I like to do book by book verse by verse I was raised under a man that taught and didn't preach he was a teacher and got very deep
We have scriptural warrant for the youth learning from the elders, not the other way around.
Jesus Christ is Who we are to worship, not the youth.
And all that said, not all young folks like the new music. What about those that don't? Do we just assume they don't count?
And, there are older folks who do like the new music. I'm 45 and like the old hymns, southern gospel, praise and worship, and even rock style songs. There are those in their sixties and seventies who like the blend too.
Jesus Christ is Who we are to worship, not the youth.
And all that said, not all young folks like the new music. What about those that don't? Do we just assume they don't count?
And, there are older folks who do like the new music. I'm 45 and like the old hymns, southern gospel, praise and worship, and even rock style songs. There are those in their sixties and seventies who like the blend too.
ashleysdad
Member
I think that we are losing them well before college. We like to think that our Sunday School (small group) programs are effective but if the numbers are anywhere near accurate then we have to face the bitter fact that they are not. We tell them "the Bible says..." on Sunday morning, then they get to school on Monday and they are told that the Bible is just a book written by men. Are we giving them solid reasons and evidences that they can use to understand that the Bible is reliable and perfectly trustworthy? They hear "God created the Heavens and the earth", then they get to school and thier biology teacher shows them "proof" of evolution. Are we showing them science that backs up the Bibles claim to Gods creation? When they ask us questions do we have good answers? If we think that we are going to reverse this trend by sending them off to a christian college we are wrong. We lose our kids and thus our young adults well before college age. We have to stop the bleeding at a much earlier age then college. They aren't losing their faith IN college they have already lost their faith BY college. Honestly speaking as a youth pastor and father of two teens, I can honestly say that we (the church in general) have to do the hard work and stop being content with our same old same old Sunday morning lessons. We need to incorporate real evidence and training to shore up their faith. We need to teach the Bible and teach them why the Bible is accurate and trustworthy. We need to teach the bible and teach them apologetics. We need to teach the bible and show them that there is science that supports creationism and that it is credible and held by credible scientists. Yes, I realize that parents are not teaching their children this at home and that even among "church" families there is a sad lack of Bible knowledge and teaching. In my youth group of 25-30 there are 4 kids whose parents go to church (my two and our music directors two). That is it. The rest of them come from homes where the Bible is not valued and they are taught humanistic philosophy. That makes our job that much harder and that much more urgent. This issue of young adults leaving the church does not just affect the church. These kids who are leaving are becoming the next voice in this country and sadly it is a voice that is totally absent the things of God. Their choices and decisions are made based on the philosophy that has been "proven" real to them and that is unfortunately not a Godly, Christ centered philosophy. Music will not make a difference in this issue. Solid teaching and discipleship that is willing and able to go beyond the surface of a typical Sunday morning study and get to the heart and reality of what they face in the real world and show them and teach them how to stand for God in the real world is the ONLY thing that will keep young people from leaving in the numbers that they are right now.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
By "secular humanist music" do you mean that the tune used for "Morning has broken" (known as "Bunessan", and also used for the hymn "Child in a manger, Infant of Mary") is secular and humanist? It's actually an old Gaelic folk tune, so not originally written for Christian words, but there are plenty of hymn tunes like that!
If you meant the words, then I wonder if this is the explanation (emphasis mine) from this website:
The song became very popular in the United States in the 1960s and in 1971 was included by pop-folk singer Cat Stevens, who is sometimes erroneously credited as the author, on his 1971 album Teaser and the Firecat.
In fact the words were written as a hymn for children by Eleanor Farjeon (1881-1965), and first appeared in the hymnbook Songs of Praise in 1931.
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Honestly speaking as a youth pastor and father of two teens, I can honestly say that we (the church in general) have to do the hard work and stop being content with our same old same old Sunday morning lessons.
How right you are and to make this happen requires "change".
...and people resist "change" like it's a plague.
How right you are and to make this happen requires "change".
...and people resist "change" like it's a plague.
That is why emphasize an "intergenrational church" one where all generation are involved together working side by side as freinds and not this group of that group but ONE group. Older ladies and younger ladies doing things together, the older women teaching the younger spiritual things and the younger helping the older understand how use the modern gadgets. Make your friends your childrens friends.
Two good books to teach in the youth Sunday school class, The Beginings Under attack and Scientific creationism. These go into the biblical teaching of creation and sciences based on creation.
Where is evolution proven as true? The formula that they use is very flawed.
It is C12/C14 x 1/2 the age of the earth which they say is 4 to 4.5 billions years old. Thus carbon dating is derived from this formula. The sedimentation rates we have today if calcuulated would mean the oceans and seas woulf be very shallow if in fact the world was that old, those facts aren't taught in schools because they disprove evolutionary sciences. Those are the things we need to teach our children and adults so we have grounds to debate with.
David Lamb said:
Fine. Then let your children sing it.
The church should be all about change--seeing sinners changed into saints.
But just as we don't hand the breadwinner's paycheck over to the teens to budget as they see fit, just as we don't turn the family car over to them for their exclusive use, and hopefully don't allow them to run the family, we don't allow them to run the church.
Change church to "reach the teens and youth" and you make it something they outgrow with adulthood.
Keep church grownup and challenge them to grow up into a place of responsibility, and they will.
My generation--boomers--worshipped at the altar of rebellion and youth culture. Now we pay the price.
I pray that before it is too late we get more Biblical.
Google "The situation is grave--are you?" by Paul Proctor for some thought provoking reading.
But just as we don't hand the breadwinner's paycheck over to the teens to budget as they see fit, just as we don't turn the family car over to them for their exclusive use, and hopefully don't allow them to run the family, we don't allow them to run the church.
Change church to "reach the teens and youth" and you make it something they outgrow with adulthood.
Keep church grownup and challenge them to grow up into a place of responsibility, and they will.
My generation--boomers--worshipped at the altar of rebellion and youth culture. Now we pay the price.
I pray that before it is too late we get more Biblical.
Google "The situation is grave--are you?" by Paul Proctor for some thought provoking reading.
The focus of the church should be on the training(equipping) of the saints for life in a fallen world; not on sermons & sweet songs from yesteryear. The church is foundationally flawed. It is set up like political event where the crowd is wooed into the mood with the "right" music before THE man gets up & gives a moving speech. It is pathetically shallow.
You want to stop the flow of young adults out the door? Change the paradigm from a "one man-centered" sermonological lecture hall into a multi-teacher discipleship-centered church. We've got the misapplied notion of "preaching the Word is always the answer" when it is never the answer within the true church. I feel like screaming "PREACHING THE GOSPEL IS FOR THE LOST, DUMMY" everytime someone speaks of preaching the gospel in church, "just in case a sinner may be there". And lets just ignore all of the children of God who are on spiritual life support because the pastors wouldn't know how to feed them the meat of the Word if their lives depended on it. Oh, but don't their sermons sound so good & make me feel so guilty though. (smiley face spitting in disgust)
But this type of change will never happen on a broad scale. Why? Because it takes authority, money, & prestige from one man & spreads the responsibility to many persons. My 17yr old daughter is teaching at her church. There is absolutely no reason why any child should not be able to teach younger children by their 16th birthday; other than the wholesale dumbing-down of the believers that has occurred in our churches over the past few decades.
It actually started with the "great revivals" which were really just the start of the "repeat this prayer" & "salvation is turning from your sins" crowds. Both are Biblically abhorrent & have destroyed the effectiveness of the Church in our age.
--getting off soap box now--
P.S. and don't bother telling me that I'm wrong. Then I'll just have to read your response, dwell on your position & points, & possibly agree with you on some points.
"A little levity leavens the whole lump"
You want to stop the flow of young adults out the door? Change the paradigm from a "one man-centered" sermonological lecture hall into a multi-teacher discipleship-centered church. We've got the misapplied notion of "preaching the Word is always the answer" when it is never the answer within the true church. I feel like screaming "PREACHING THE GOSPEL IS FOR THE LOST, DUMMY" everytime someone speaks of preaching the gospel in church, "just in case a sinner may be there". And lets just ignore all of the children of God who are on spiritual life support because the pastors wouldn't know how to feed them the meat of the Word if their lives depended on it. Oh, but don't their sermons sound so good & make me feel so guilty though. (smiley face spitting in disgust)
But this type of change will never happen on a broad scale. Why? Because it takes authority, money, & prestige from one man & spreads the responsibility to many persons. My 17yr old daughter is teaching at her church. There is absolutely no reason why any child should not be able to teach younger children by their 16th birthday; other than the wholesale dumbing-down of the believers that has occurred in our churches over the past few decades.
It actually started with the "great revivals" which were really just the start of the "repeat this prayer" & "salvation is turning from your sins" crowds. Both are Biblically abhorrent & have destroyed the effectiveness of the Church in our age.
--getting off soap box now--
P.S. and don't bother telling me that I'm wrong. Then I'll just have to read your response, dwell on your position & points, & possibly agree with you on some points.
"A little levity leavens the whole lump"
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's a hymn that I would encourage children to sing, but that's because the theology of the words is wrong. (For instance, mornings do not break "like the first morning", do they? There was no sunrise, indeed no sun, on that first morning. Creation was far from complete on that first morning.)
My reluctance to use the hymn would have nothing to do with the fact that the tune was originally for a Gaelic folksong, and certainly nothing to do with the hymn getting into the pop charts courtesy of Cat Stevens.
I will leave it there for the moment, because you (JDF) have still not said whether by "secular humanist music", you meant that you consider the tune used for "Morning has broken" is secular and humanist. Or did you mean the words?
(For instance, mornings do not break "like the first morning", do they? There was no sunrise, indeed no sun, on that first morning. Creation was far from complete on that first morning.)
I agree, but...
Pat Boone is a Christian. He also was college educated and his Major was English.
I remember an interview once where he explained that one of his first music recordings (that ultimately went high on the charts) was written with the word "Ain't" in it. This tore him up seeing as how he Majored in English and knew for sure that back in those days, "Ain't" wasn't a proper and accepted word.
Well, they played with every other word imaginable in order to replace that word "Ain't". After several hours he came to realize that nothing else fit. So, he sang the song with the word "Ain't".
He's still a Christian.
I am of the opinion that often, we get delayed following in our own way. I think the Lord could use the word "Ain't", if He wanted to.
I agree, but...
Pat Boone is a Christian. He also was college educated and his Major was English.
I remember an interview once where he explained that one of his first music recordings (that ultimately went high on the charts) was written with the word "Ain't" in it. This tore him up seeing as how he Majored in English and knew for sure that back in those days, "Ain't" wasn't a proper and accepted word.
Well, they played with every other word imaginable in order to replace that word "Ain't". After several hours he came to realize that nothing else fit. So, he sang the song with the word "Ain't".
He's still a Christian.
I am of the opinion that often, we get delayed following in our own way. I think the Lord could use the word "Ain't", if He wanted to.
I don't see Morning has Broken as song for church service either, my point was that it was written as a hymn in 1931 to be in a church humn book. JDF said that only the old hymns should be sung in church.
Of course if we do that then we shouldn't sing Because He Lives either, nor any Gaither songs they aren't the old hymns either.
Because He Lives
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God sent His son, they called Him Jesus
He came to love, heal, and forgive.
He lived and died to buy my pardon,
An empty grave is there to prove my Savior lives.
Because He lives, I can face tomorrow.
Because He lives, All fear is gone.
Because I know He holds the future,
And life is worth the living just because He lives.
How sweet to hold a newborn baby,
And feel the pride and joy he gives.
But greater still the calm assurance,
This child can face uncertain days because He lives.
Because He lives, I can face tomorrow.
Because He lives, All fear is gone.
Because I know He holds the future,
And life is worth the living just because He lives.
And then one day I'll cross the river,
I'll fight life's final war with pain.
And then as death gives way to victory,
I'll see the lights of glory and I'll know He lives.
Because He lives, I can face tomorrow.
Because He lives, All fear is gone!
Because I know He holds the future
And life is worth the living just because He lives!
Words: Bill & Gloria Gaither
In July 1970 a healthy baby, Benjamin, was born. Inspired by the miracle of their son's birth, "Because He Lives" poured out of the Gaithers' grateful hearts. The song clearly affirms the hope believers have in Christ. We can face tomorrow, with all its uncertainty, as we realize that God holds the future and makes life worth living.
Written in 1970 it isn't an old hymn and therefore according to JDF not fit for use in the worship service.
Gaither and his wife have written many songs, including "The Longer I Serve Him," "Because He Lives," "The King Is Coming," "Something Beautiful," "He Touched Me", "It Is Finished," "There's Something About That Name" and "Let's Just Praise The Lord." His songs have been performed by Christian artists (Carman, Sandi Patty, The Cathedral Quartet, The Speers and The Heritage Singers), country singers (The Statler Brothers) and pop artists (Elvis Presley).
Gloria Gaither often writes the lyrics while Bill writes the music, although composing is usually a collaborative project between the two. As of 2005, they had composed about 600 songs.[2]
Those listed in the above especially since the Stalers and Elvis did some are not fit according to JDF.
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The fact that we are discussing what music is appropriate "in church" reveals a misunderstanding of what the Church is. The Biblical church under the new Covenant of Christ's blood is not a religious institution; it is a family of people who are the church no matter where we are. We have become so much like those who once persecuted & killed our brothers. Church has become a place & time instead of a Saviour & His people. When we assemble, we are simply bringing our individual worship & study into a corporate setting. God did not give certain criteria for individual behavior & a different set for corporate behavior. It is MEN who fabricate the various rules & standards for religious settings.
By what authority does any man claim that another person's worship & praise of God is not valid or appropriate? Read the references to David's worship & Paul's teaching on worship for God's "opinion" on the matter before passing judgement on those you may deem less spiritually mature than yourselves. It may be that their understanding of our liberty in Christ reveals a greater spiritual maturity & understanding than your own. And perhaps some of us cannot see past the religiously correct blinders that are worn to prevent the seeing of truth which does not fit with our own sensitivities & personal preferences.
By what authority does any man claim that another person's worship & praise of God is not valid or appropriate? Read the references to David's worship & Paul's teaching on worship for God's "opinion" on the matter before passing judgement on those you may deem less spiritually mature than yourselves. It may be that their understanding of our liberty in Christ reveals a greater spiritual maturity & understanding than your own. And perhaps some of us cannot see past the religiously correct blinders that are worn to prevent the seeing of truth which does not fit with our own sensitivities & personal preferences.
As I think everybody here knows, I've never said that a song shouldn't be sung because of its date or should be sung because of its date.
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