Musical Instruments in Christ's church [2]

[Darron Steele]

Second part of three:

Huh? No; I just take passages that are meant to be taken at face-value at face-value.

Exactly, you do not want to look at the evidence, to look beyond the first assumption of the meaning - you don't what to look deeper. You don't want to look at what the rest of the book of Revelation is like and then apply it to what this one verse in Revelation - because if you did that then you'd be incorrect in your assumption that Revelation authorizes music (harps) in worship.

DefenderoftheFaith: I have been patient with you, and I realize that you are abusing that to be brazen in making ridiculous statements.

First of all, you are once again assuming what the burden of proof is on you to substantiate. The Scriptures never once indicate that God does not want His people using musical instruments. Throughout Scripture, God indicates His approval of musical instruments. It is a logical fallacy to assume what you have to substantiate.

Let me emulate what you are doing: `I intend to show that 1+1 = 3. I will not accept any indications that 1+1=2. I will be assuming that right now 1+1=3, and that the burden is on anyone else who substantiate otherwise. Now, based upon my assumption, 1+1=3 right now, so 1+1=3. My case is therefore proven.' What folly.

Even more ridiculous is your assumption "You don't want to look at what the rest of the book of Revelation is like...." That is where I realized that I have been to generous with you, and you have abused that to fearlessly make ridiculous assertions. Please read:
I HAVE READ REVELATION FRONT TO BACK AND IN ITS ENTIRETY MORE THAN ONCE!

I have been among the militantly-vocal Churches of Christ. I am sure the `faithful, sound brethren' at your group told you `No one outside our group really studies the Bible' so you bought into it -- just as you bought into this whole idea that musical instruments should be banned despite the positive ways Scripture treats them.

Now, here is reality: the people in your group are not right when they boast about how `We alone study Scripture' or disparage outside church groups `They do not study the Bible.' You will find avid students of Scripture among the Independent Christian churches, Disciples of Christ, Holiness and Pentecostal and Charismatic groups, Methodists, Baptists, etc..

As for me, I have read Revelation. I have read the entire New Testament more than a few times in my 15 years of Christian service.

You do not know what you are talking about, and at this point, it is no longer possible for me to treat you like a person of intelligence.

You need to learn to study, research, and think for yourself, rather than let your group dictate what you think. Groups can be great for guidance and mentoring, but when you turn your brain to `low power' nearly every time the leaders and their carefully-selected deputies give you `guidance,' you are making a mistake.

 

[Darron Steele]

Last part of three:

Now, up to this point, I have been willing to bear with your foolishness, which up to a few day ago I assumed was beneath your intelligence.

When DHK closed that first thread due to length, I assumed that you were still continuing to push your view on this to avoid appearing to have lost. I never dreamed you would actually be foolish enough to restart the conversation. I even thought of asking you `What exactly are you hoping to accomplish?' I was going to leave you alone -- but then you addressed me in this second thread. Therefore, I decided not to leave you alone.

Was it not obvious after 30+ pages that you were not going to convince anyone of your group's view on musical instruments? Was it not obvious that you would be wasting your time? It should have been.

A smart person would have realized `This is a good place to stop. I am not getting anywhere with anyone. With this, my stopping would not be viewed as conceding a defeat. I am going to take advantage of this, and drop it.'

A smart person knows when to quit. When you did not take advantage of that gift, and actually started this thread despite the obvious fact you are wasting your time, you showed me that you actually are as foolish as you made yourself appear in the first thread.

When you had the audacity to assert that I am actually avoiding looking at all of Revelation, I was floored that you thought someone like me had not already read the book of Revelation. Wow!

I have better things to do with my time. Proverbs 26:4 "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him" (JPS 1917). I will no longer be treating your arguments like those of an intelligent person. In doing so, I would be legitimizing your folly.

Also, I would be squandering my time when there are other things that more merit my attention. Ephesians 5:15-6 says "Look therefore carefully how ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise; |making the best use of the time| because the days are evil" (ASV|ESV|ASV). Continuing to spend a great deal of time on this foolishness would be discordant with this passage.

I will check in, and when you post something factually baseless or idiotic, I will comment. However, I am no longer going to thoroughly deal with comments you make or people you quote to speak for you. You do not merit the attention.

 

[Don]

billwald,
Electricity does not interact with the acts of worship. Musical instruments are used to worship God - but the electricity does not worship God...EVER.
Electricity does not invade the act of singing - does not go beyond the simple command to "sing" - does not add to the singing. Electricity or oil lamps or pitch black...we're still just singing.
Musical instruments; were not just singing anymore; we're singing and playing.

This was a very bad analogy, and I implore you to re-look at it.

People use musical instruments to worship; they also use electricity to worship. Disagree? Consider: they use electricity to heat the church, and to have lights, to enhance their worship experience. Remove the electricity, and you affect the people trying to worship.

Same with musical instruments. They are played to enhance the worship service.

Now, another question for you: Please tell us, what hymns were being sung in Hebrews 2:12?

 

[billwald]

> Electricity or oil lamps or pitch black...we're still just singing.

Unless you have an exceptional congregation, half are singing flat.

 

[JonC]

DefenderoftheFaith:

As shown clearly by common sense...

Common sense is subjective, and good sense is in no way a common commodity.

 

[Darron Steele]

Common sense is subjective, and good sense is in no way a common commodity.

Agreed. However, a decent amount of sense would prevent what has happened on two threads.

Right, such as `sing at the exclusion of musical instruments.'

As shown clearly by common sense, it is obvious that "sing" at Revelation 5 does not mean that the harps were not used for their normal purpose.

To genuinely think that "sing" at Revelation 5 still means
1) `vocal only' and
2) the harps were not used for their purpose
would be a sign of not even decent sense.

Most of us know that to "sing" means to sing without instruments or with instruments. Most of us are accustomed to songs with instruments and singing with instruments. We do not think `Well, is the singer really singing if instruments are playing?' We know better.

Amazingly, there is a poster here who alleges that those of us with decent or good sense are trying to justify something. As I said before: "rubbish."

 

[JonC]

I certainly think that would be absurd to mandate the use of musical instruments in worship, but I have never understood the reasoning behind excluding musical instruments in church. (I understand the reasons, the reasoning seems flawed to me).

The Jews used “non-common” instruments in worship, Jesus worshiped in that style and no where does Scripture forbid the use of instruments. An early church may have difficulty worshiping with musical instruments, but vocals are not too hard to come by.

I would be afraid to condemn a church for using instruments in worship just I would be afraid to condemn a church for choosing vocals only.

While I believe that how well I sing will not forfeit my salvation, without musical accompaniment it may come close to doing so. (or just get me kicked to the back row).

 

[Darron Steele]

I certainly think that would be absurd to mandate the use of musical instruments in worship, but I have never understood the reasoning behind excluding musical instruments in church. (I understand the reasons, the reasoning seems flawed to me).

The Jews used “non-common” instruments in worship, Jesus worshiped in that style and no where does Scripture forbid the use of instruments. An early church may have difficulty worshiping with musical instruments, but vocals are not too hard to come by.

I would be afraid to condemn a church for using instruments in worship just I would be afraid to condemn a church for choosing vocals only.

While I believe that how well I sing will not forfeit my salvation, without musical accompaniment it may come close to doing so. (or just get me kicked to the back row).

I agree with you that there is no merit to forbidding
1) musical instruments in worship, or
2) vocal-only music in worship.

 

[JonC]

We live in a community that has a large church of Christ population. We do have one church of Christ that, while adhering to the tradition of no musical instruments, recognizes it as a tradition and once or twice a year they’ll have a music program.

Unfortunately, that is not the norm. We have had several teachers forced to resign from a large private school, ran by church of Christ, because they attended a special program with musical accompaniment at the more “liberal” church of Christ. (They had the option to resign from their job or denounce the practices of the other church and promise never to attend a service there). These were people who had been members of that church for years, teachers at that school for years. They were hurt and shunned by their church family. Most chose to resign their jobs.

While I wouldn’t question the church member’s salvation, and I have church of Christ friends I believe to be saved, they are certainly being taught a false doctrine in several areas.

 

[Darron Steele]

We live in a community that has a large church of Christ population. We do have one church of Christ that, while adhering to the tradition of no musical instruments, recognizes it as a tradition and once or twice a year they’ll have a music program.

Unfortunately, that is not the norm. We have had several teachers forced to resign from a large private school, ran by church of Christ, because they attended a special program with musical accompaniment at the more “liberal” church of Christ. (They had the option to resign from their job or denounce the practices of the other church and promise never to attend a service there). These were people who had been members of that church for years, teachers at that school for years. They were hurt and shunned by their church family. Most chose to resign their jobs.

While I wouldn’t question the church member’s salvation, and I have church of Christ friends I believe to be saved, they are certainly being taught a false doctrine in several areas.

Right; in many Churches of Christ, it is not enough to simply refrain from using musical instruments.

You have to believe that it is wrong to use them. The claim `We just do not use musical instruments' is too often not true.

These poor unfortunates probably did not know the whole truth. If making sure that the workers were never present during the use of musical instruments, making them promise never to go back would have been quite adequate. It is clear that this was not enough -- they had to specifically denounce the other Church of Christ.

It is a textbook example of factiousness: `It is not enough to be for us -- you must also be against them.' I am sure that the workers were not aware that factiousness was a job requirement. Those who took a stand against factiousness are to be commended; the Lord will reward them greater than their losses.

It is too bad for the workers of that school. It just goes to show how many in the Churches of Christ care more for this vocal-only tradition and ensuring militancy for it than they do about the livelihoods of people who have put in years of service in for them.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Lighting, heating, pews or seats, hymnals and even the church building are not mentioned in Scripture but certainly does invade the act of singing.

No it doesn't and to continue to argue that it does is foolishness. It doesn't add to the singing at all - but using musical instruments in singing adds another kind of music to the singing and therefore invades the act of worship - singing.

If you say it doesn't, then go out into a field in the dark and sing.

Actually, we have done that before - its very nice on a cool summer eve sitting on the grass singing with fellow christians at midnight.

It enhances worship but God does not tell us to go out and look at the stars in worship. My family has worshipped in a car - but God does not tell us to drive during worship but it most certainly invades the act of singing.

God does tell us to sing (Ephesians 5:19) and to sing means just to sing. Playing and singing is adding in the playing part to the singing part.

Yes, it enhances it but it doesn't change us because it's the act of worship and our hearts in worship that's of concern to God.

God tells us to make melody (i.e. music) and he tells us to use an instrument - guess what that is?
Ephesians 5:19
"...making melody in your heart to the Lord."

Yes, our heart is where we make the music - not in an musical instrument such as piano.


He gave us talents. He gave us the gift of music. To turn around and use that to glorify Him is not a sin. Period.[/QUOTE]

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Great: you have shown that not only do the Scriptures show God's approval of musical instruments, Scripture approves the burning of incense as well, and some other things it seems.

They [the harpers, elders, and others] are not a church of Jesus Christ, they are not a church established by Christ on earth, they are not a church bought with Christ's blood. They are not an assembly of Christians worshiping God here on earth during the Christian dispensation; and hence nothing that they are doing, that is, simply because they are doing it, can be properly quoted as an example governing the worship of such an assembly of Christians.

I can understand why symbolic language might be used about events on the earth. What would be the point of being `allegorical' about descriptions of Heaven? Is the whole book of Revelation allegory? Were the seven congregations of Asia not to really believe what Jesus Christ was saying to them?

As Ray Summers put it -
"The personal safety of both writer and reader was endangered if the persecutors understood the true meaning of the book. For this reason the message of the apocalypse [Revelation and other books] was written so as to conceal and to reveal—to conceal the message from the outsider but to reveal its message to the initiated"

Now, the seven churches of Asia were living in the time of John and I believe were a very much 'initiated' therefore the message was revealed to them.

The idea that no part of Revelation should be believed is nonsense. The congregations addressed should have believed what was said to them by Jesus Christ. We should believe John's description of worship in Heaven.

Yes, in Heaven - not on earth.

Right, such as `sing at the exclusion of musical instruments.'

Right, such as 'sing.' - Oh wait...sing PERIOD? That must mean 'sing and do whatever we want' - certainly that doesn't meant to JUST sing...nooo....course not.

Even more ridiculous is your assumption "You don't want to look at what the rest of the book of Revelation is like...." That is where I realized that I have been to generous with you, and you have abused that to fearlessly make ridiculous assertions. Please read:
I HAVE READ REVELATION FRONT TO BACK AND IN ITS ENTIRETY MORE THAN ONCE!

Really? Thats lovely. I could read a science book front to back twenty times...does that make me a scientist? Just cause you read it doesn't make you the know-it-all authority for it my friend.

I have been among the militantly-vocal Churches of Christ. I am sure the `faithful, sound brethren' at your group told you `No one outside our group really studies the Bible' so you bought into it -- just as you bought into this whole idea that musical instruments should be banned despite the positive ways Scripture treats them.

Now, here is reality: the people in your group are not right when they boast about how `We alone study Scripture' or disparage outside church groups `They do not study the Bible.' You will find avid students of Scripture among the Independent Christian churches, Disciples of Christ, Holiness and Pentecostal and Charismatic groups, Methodists, Baptists, etc..

As for me, I have read Revelation. I have read the entire New Testament more than a few times in my 15 years of Christian service.

You do not know what you are talking about, and at this point, it is no longer possible for me to treat you like a person of intelligence.

You need to learn to study, research, and think for yourself, rather than let your group dictate what you think. Groups can be great for guidance and mentoring, but when you turn your brain to `low power' nearly every time the leaders and their carefully-selected deputies give you `guidance,' you are making a mistake.

One turns to insults when he finds himself defeated or soon to be.

 

[Darron Steele]

...
One turns to insults when he finds himself defeated or soon to be.

Do not congratulate yourself above what you deserve. Satan got puffed up with pride more than he deserved, and look what it cost him. Take heed.

Any sensible person without any loyalty to your religious group would not be swayed by your nonsense. Nearly everyone who has posted against your nonsense, if not everyone, would be more convincing.

I meant what I said and exactly what I said. There was no desire to insult you, although I knew that my explanation of
1) my future activities dealing with you on this issue, and
2) why
would be much less than flattering. Had I desired to insult you, I would have posted differently plus posted a lot more. I regret that the truth is less than flattering.

I just indicated that I am not going to spend nearly as much time fooling around with you, and I explained why. Take it at face value.

 

[Don]

Would someone please do me a favor, and ask DOTF my questions? For some reason, he ignores me.

 

[annsni]

Darron - It's a waste of time. Unless the Bible says "Worship the Lord in the church building, with electricity and heat/AC with piano, guitar, bass, drums and multiple vocals through a PA system" or "Worship the Lord in the building with pipe organ and choir with robes", defender will not accept it.

I wonder where his church baptizes those who are being baptized. I hope it's not in a baptismal because the Scriptures certainly don't say to do so, so if they're doing it, they must know it's a sin.

 

[DHK]

God tells us to make melody (i.e. music) and he tells us to use an instrument - guess what that is?
Ephesians 5:19
"...making melody in your heart to the Lord."

If you really believe what you just said, then there is no reason to sing vocally in your church whatsoever. Cancel the song service all together. The musical instruments are not authorized, and so are the vocal chords. All music must be "in the heart to the Lord." It is not aloud; it is in the heart. That is silent. There must be no noise whatsoever in your church; but complete silence. Everything must be "in your heart," just like Hannah:

1 Samuel 1:12-13 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth. Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard:

God does not authorize you to use your voice.

 

[rbell]

I find it funny that God would allow instruments in Heaven but ban them on Earth.

Actually, I find it ludicrous.

DOTF, I'll give you points for tenacity, but you are defending a goofy doctrine, and doing a poor job of it to boot.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Would someone please do me a favor, and ask DOTF my questions? For some reason, he ignores me.

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you, I was to distracted by Darron Steele's post I forgot to answer yours.
Just try to understand what it feels like to have 10 people on this board all asking me questions and challenging me...and theres only one of me.

People use musical instruments to worship; they also use electricity to worship.

They use musical instruments combined with the singing to worship therefore the instruments added with the singing directly worship God.

Disagree? Consider: they use electricity to heat the church, and to have lights, to enhance their worship experience. Remove the electricity, and you affect the people trying to worship.

The electricity doesn't affect any of the acts of worship. So we become cold? Say its not as bright? We're still just singing, just praying, preaching, ect.
But with musical instruments - they directly add onto the singing.

Same with musical instruments. They are played to enhance the worship service.

Yes, you say it yourself - they "enhance the worship service". So God would be more "pleased" with this "enhanced worship service"?

Now, another question for you: Please tell us, what hymns were being sung in Hebrews 2:12?

Hebrews 2:12
"I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."
Probably the psalms? Maybe other songs they have?
Of course I can see you now....
"Ahah! The Psalms were played with musical instruments!"

Notice...
"...I will sing your praise"

Not...
"I will play and sing your praise"

The word 'sing' here is hymneō which its definition is
- to sing the praise of, sing hymns to
- to sing a hymn, to sing
- singing of paschal hymns these were Psalms 113 - 118 and 136, which the Jews called the "great Hallel"

It all means singing and simply that.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

If you really believe what you just said, then there is no reason to sing vocally in your church whatsoever. Cancel the song service all together. The musical instruments are not authorized, and so are the vocal chords. All music must be "in the heart to the Lord." It is not aloud; it is in the heart. That is silent. There must be no noise whatsoever in your church; but complete silence. Everything must be "in your heart," just like Hannah:

1 Samuel 1:12-13 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth. Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard:

God does not authorize you to use your voice.

Wow...you really have an extreme take on what I said.

God tells us to make melody (i.e. music) and he tells us to use an instrument - guess what that is?
Ephesians 5:19
"...making melody in your heart to the Lord."

Now looking at the whole verse...
Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

And then there is....
Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Both of these verses refer to "your heart" but it also says to "teach and admonish one another" and then it tells us how to do that "in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" so these verses tell us to sing aloud AND in our hearts.

Singing does two primary things. 1) Encourages/teaches/admonishes and 2) praises God.
Singing aloud does 1) and then plus singing and making melody in your heart accomplishes 2).

Again, look at more examples to support this...
Acts 16:25 "And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them."

Hebrews 13:15 "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

 

[defenderofthefaith]

I find it funny that God would allow instruments in Heaven but ban them on Earth.

Actually, I find it ludicrous.

God never directly banned them for the New Testament church - but he never requested them nor did he allow them.

Plus, I don't think God exactly cares if you find it ludicrous....if its what he wants then thats what we do and we don't decide "oh I think God wants musical instruments..."
No.

We don't decide what God wants just because he never said he wanted it doesn't mean we can do it.

God told us to sing, he doesn't have to tell us everything not to do.
For example...
Someone tells you to get him a coke. Do you get him a coke and pepsi, mountain dew, sprite, mello yellow, dr. pepper, water, milk, tea, and a gatorade just because he never told you "Get me a coke but don't get me a pepsi, mountain dew, sprite...ect..ect"
No, that wouls be idiotic - you would just get a coke.

Now God told us to sing, we can't play musical instruments just because he never said "Sing, but don't use any musical instruments"